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We are ruled - your thoughts?

 
 
Strange Machine Vs The Virus with Shoes
01:57 / 05.10.03
We like to think we are free and indeed we are (in the west) in many ways. But is this because our rulers let us be free. The consolidation of power remains in the same place as it always has.
Who has the most control over society?
Our elected representatives seem to care more about the “business” than people. They believe an ideology that is just as insidious as Merxism, which is that a “free” market is the best way to regulate society. Argue against me, the crumbs may fall from the table, but in real terms there are 10 people at this table and 1 million on the floor waiting for these crumbs. Our middle class serves these rich fucks, we are the problem, and we care more about safety then freedom.
The Christian religion is one of slaves, yet it was quickly appropriated by those who seek wealth and power, Instead of the slaves freeing themselves the desires or the slaves were used against them, ask yourself why you are so comfortable. Western society is fundamentally flawed; our freedom is based on the subjugation or others. The facts of globalisation are that we prosper at the expense of others. This is another thinly disguised threat; if we treated the poor world fairly we would be poorer. Well boo hoo. In this present situation this may be the case. And this seems to be the flaw of many revolutionary bodies, they don’t want to expose the fact that, we in the rich world may be less well of if we treated the poor world fai
 
 
SMS
04:32 / 05.10.03
Our elected representatives seem to care more about the “business” than people.

Well, they do care about business, but business is what generates wealth, and it is what we use to put the food on the table, pay the mortgage, and then have luxuries of life. Pressures to corrupt elected officials exist, because they have the guns, and if you control them, you control the guns. This is why we have three separate branches of government, and why local, decentralized control of government (i.e. guns or legitimated coersion) is important. If the officials have been corrupted too far, then it is very difficult to change. These things have a tendency to carry a lot of the momentum of history. The theory behind America is that once the government works against the people rather than for it, it needs to be removed, by a violent revolution if necessary. But as far as this business thing is concerned, I'd never vote for someone who was anti-business.

They believe an ideology that is just as insidious as Merxism, which is that a “free” market is the best way to regulate society.

Er... this seems a bit odd. I don't believe the thousands of elected officials in my country believe in one ideology, unless it's a very general ideology.

Argue against me, the crumbs may fall from the table, but in real terms there are 10 people at this table and 1 million on the floor waiting for these crumbs

Montesquieu:

In a state there are always some people who are distinguished by birth wealth or honors; but if they were mixed among the people and if they had only one voice like the others, the common liberty would be their enslavment and they would have no interest in defending it, because most of the resolutions would be against them. Therefore, the part they have in legislation should be in proportion to the other advantages they have in the state, which will happen if they form a body that has the right to form the enterprises of the people as the people have a right to check theirs.

Me: Pure democracy (rule of the majority) is tyrrany.

Our middle class serves these rich fucks, we are the problem, and we care more about safety then freedom.

Well, see, if this is the case, then it really isn't bad thing, is it? I mean, if I personally care more about safety than freedom, I can do all kinds of things. I can, for instance, deprive myself of the freedom to leave my home, and stock up on weapons to defend myself from intruders. But I think you meant to say that they (those guys out there) care more about safety and less about freedom than you, Panarchy do. The problem is that those guys out there want to take away Panarchy's freedom to protect themselves from bad things. That's why we need constitutional constraints. Maybe we need some more. Do you have a suggestion?

Western society is fundamentally flawed; our freedom is based on the subjugation or others.

It's based on the subjugation of others, but every moderately populated society in history has been, as well. The nice thing about Western society is that the subjugation is for the purpose of maintaining liberty. However, I'm guessing you are an anarchist (opposing subjugation), but I've only ever studied one form of anarchy, and that is the free market kind. But you seem to be opposed to free markets, too, so I'm not sure what you mean.

This is another thinly disguised threat; if we treated the poor world fairly we would be poorer.

I guess I don't subscribe to the fairness criterion, because it's so indeterminate. For instance, a socialist/communist idea of fairness has to do with the distribution of material goods: everyone gets the same amount of stuff. But free market capitalism is also fair: everyone is allowed to do with his stuff whaterver he likes so long as it doesn't violate the rights of another. But these are in conflict, because one can acquire more stuff in capitalism, but one cannot in communism. Likewise, the rule of governments that you call unfair is this: every government is to represent the interests of the people it rules over. The president of the United States represents the American people, the Prime Minister of Britain represents the British people, and so on. There are reasons for this rule, and they are the same reasons that the mayor of Los Angeles shouldn't always make the decision that is best for the mayor of Chicago. But some of these things, like subsidizing farmers, make it difficult for foreign farmers to make a profit, so maybe we should stop subsidizing farmers, who make up less than 2% of U.S. GDP. Maybe we should take away provisions in the law specifically designed to keep Detroit manufacturers from going out of business. But food and manufacturing are two of the most important industries we can have during wartime. I'd hate for my country to go to war and realize that, because of the enemy, we can neither feed ourselves, nor build machinery necessary to defend from invasion. Um, but I guess that's maybe worrying too much about security.

Oh. from the abstract:
We live in a hierarchical state yet we have the power to change this, why don’t we?

In a sense, we don't have the power to change it, because most people don't want things changed. I'm afraid of change, and I think it's perfectly senseible to feel this way. I'd love to see how an anarchist society could function, and, if it were successful, I might start yelling to replicate it. But, you know, it's never been done before, and there's no more new world to do these experiments on. The libertarians are trying New Hampshire, though, so I'll be watching to see how that goes.
 
 
No star here laces
15:04 / 05.10.03
Analysis of society is worthwhile, trying to apply that analysis is futile.

Hierarchy and inequality is preferable to chaos. See Sierra Leone for details.

There are no general rules.

All ideologies begin as utopias and end in disaster.

When someone comes up with a political system that has no flaws, then we can start to criticise society on a macro level. Until then we can only try to be nice people.

/glib
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
07:32 / 06.10.03
If we can manage to be nice people, we won't need a system without flaws...

I don't know that it's futile to trye to apply analysis - only that the system of information management in most hierarchies is so badly flawed as to make it a huge battle to convey and then apply even the simplest bit of analysis - largely because there are concealed but furious ideologies at work.

And it's nice to see you, even if you're speaking all my best lines before I can think of 'em.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:04 / 06.10.03
Our elected representatives seem to care more about the “business” than people.

Well, they do care about business, but business is what generates wealth, and it is what we use to put the food on the table, pay the mortgage, and then have luxuries of life.

Business is clearly something to care about. As is health, education, transport and the general standard of living. You can't take one essential aspect of our lives, elevate it to a position of prime importance and forget everything else. Social contracts involve a hell of a lot more than having a business friendly environment.

But the point is that if you believe in democracy, which SMS doesn't seem to (?), allowing the concerns of a single sector of society to dominate decision making is something you should be opposeed to.

It's based on the subjugation of others, but every moderately populated society in history has been, as well. The nice thing about Western society is that the subjugation is for the purpose of maintaining liberty.

I think the first part is probably true. The second part seems pretty false, unless we take subjugation to apply to others and freedom to apply to ourselves. BTW, I don't think you need to be an anarchist to think of subjugation as undesirable. To take a historic example, most would now see slavery as unacceptable, despite whatever business and economic arguments you were to put in its favour.

But free market capitalism is also fair: everyone is allowed to do with his stuff whaterver he likes so long as it doesn't violate the rights of another.

Perhaps. In which case, we have yet to see an example of free market capitalism. I mean, as you acknowledge, pure democracy is not in effect which means that the powerful have a disproportinate say which they can use to dictate the terms under which economic transactions take place. The clearest example of this is in the area of world trade and the actions of the IMF. Essentially poor countries are coerced into lowering all trade barriers (something developed countries never did) and open up financial markets. At the same time, we raise trade tarriffs on goods they export and the liberalised financial markets, while hurting the country, benefit investors from develpoed countries.

If that is "fair", then we are essentially saying that might is right.

Hierarchy and inequality is preferable to chaos. - Jefe

Which is why a monarchy is always preferable to a transition to democracy.
 
 
SMS
20:24 / 06.10.03
It's based on the subjugation of others, but every moderately populated society in history has been, as well. The nice thing about Western society is that the subjugation is for the purpose of maintaining liberty.

I think the first part is probably true. The second part seems pretty false, unless we take subjugation to apply to others and freedom to apply to ourselves. BTW, I don't think you need to be an anarchist to think of subjugation as undesirable. To take a historic example, most would now see slavery as unacceptable, despite whatever business and economic arguments you were to put in its favour.

We may be hanging up on the ambiguities of 'subjugation.' Because Panarchy said that western society is fundamentally flawed, I took hir meaning to be the subjugation that is at the very heart of western society, essentially the position of everyone as a subject, owing allegience to the state, the of coercion against every citizen/subject, and so on. Re-reading it, though, xe says our freedom is based on the subjugation of others. If, by other, xe means the people in other countries, rather than the people in our own neighborhoods, then I don't really understand. It might be argued that our luxurious lifestyle is based on the subjugation of people in other countries, but I don't see how our freedom is.
 
  
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