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Does humanist egalitarianism stagnate evolution?

 
  

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Tom Coates
13:27 / 13.10.03
The point I was trying to make is that that people are not empirically 'fit' in some ahistorial, trans-contextual way. Fitness is measured fundamentally by the survival of the germ-line only - by the spread of the genetic material. And the attributes that work to spread that genetic material will be FUNDAMENTALLY contextual. That is - genes that give you the ability to breathe under water will not give you a reproductive advantage in a world without water. Genes that allow you to run faster or kill more easily will not be useful in a world where there's no REASON to compete on speed or benefits to be gained by killing. I'm not talking about social Darwinism, I'm talking about the simple fact that anyone or anything that begins to evolve from humanity as is will have the wide-ranging social and technological human culture we live in AS ITS CONTEXT. Humanity has EVOLVED to be able to achieve this level of social and technological culture because it provides reproductive advantages and will continue to do so. Moreover, as the context in which we live becomes more and more massive, the liklihood taht an individual will be able to change it will diminish and the liklihood that we'll start evolving more and more to operate within it will also increase. There probably hasn't been a time in the last several hundred thousand years where some level of technology has had an impact on reproductive success and no time in the last few hundred million where some level of social engagement hasn't had a corresponding impact - so it's facile to talk about these things as if they hold back evolutionary pressures.

In a nutshell - society isn't something artificial forced upon people, it's emerged from the genetically oriented social characteristics within people and has provided clear reproductive advantages. In return, people have gradually evolved more and more social mechanisms and the capacities for society. Society is WHAT WE EVOLVE IN and people who are able to generate the most growth in genetic progeny WITHIN THIS CONTEXT will gradually become the next shape of humanity.
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:36 / 13.10.03
phex: I think I'll take the hyperbolic statements about our impending doom at the hands of AI a bit more seriously when they actually manage to produce anything resembling intelligence. Likewise, I'll believe in "THEM" if there is any evidence, not before. All your quotes are about ill founded extrapolation. Like getting to the moon by climbing taller and taller trees.

Tom: Agreed. Spot on. Though the points above about our controlling our own evolution are convincing as well and may turn out to have a greater impact on our evolution than natural selection at this stage.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:47 / 13.10.03
Okay, thanks for that, Rage, it cleared up some of my confusion. I guess social Darwinism was the wrong expression.

So, tell me if I've understood you right: You're not literally talking about genetic superiority, about producing homo superior through breeding. You're using the language of genetics ('evolution', 'mutants') to talk about creating your proposed Homo Superior by other means, such as nanotech and memetic engineering. Currently, you feel that this new order of beings is somehow prevented from coming into its own because prevailing social structures don't allow for it; wannabe Hom+ is being medicated out of existance.

Am I warm yet?
 
 
Thjatsi
02:08 / 14.10.03
You just need to read Howard Bloom or anything on AI evolution to know that micro-organisms and microprocessors have us licked on the evolutionary front, one or the other will wipe us out, probably this century, maybe within our lifetimes...

I've read both of Howard Bloom's books, and scoured the internet for his writing and radio interviews. Maybe I missed something, but I've yet to see him write anything about microbes wiping us off the planet. Bloom does mention them to give examples for group selection, draw comparisons between bacterial colonies and civilizations, and to illustrate the pluralist versus conformity enforcer dichotomy. However, he seems much more concerned with the battle between the west and middle east than a microbial apocalypse. If I've missed something please let me know.

Your AI scenario rests on two premises:

1) Artificial intelligence can be created.
2) Artificial intelligence will find itself in conflict with humans.

These are both really big assumptions. I would also point out that a civilization filled with nothing but intelligent machines is still a posthuman civilization.

There's no way we can use Eugenics or even mass germ-line manipulation to get around it, we just don't have enough time to go Posthuman.

It is impossible to predict what science will be capable of twenty years from now. Historically, there were about ten years between the proposal of nuclear fission and the use of it as a weapon. For less violent examples, I'd point to prions, RNA interference, and the influences of insulin-like receptors on aging, as things that no one would have ever suspected before they were discovered.

Rage, I've noticed that certain topics on barbelith lead to twenty versus one arguments that are impossible to deal with. I think this discourages a lot of posters, and often leads them to leave the board entirely. However, I've always been impressed with your resilience in this area.
 
 
Querelle
04:17 / 14.10.03
Ok, so the argument is that technology is growing at an exponential pace, and we will eventually be able to systhesize the perfect human/whatever, able to survive perfectly in our world. To put something pretty complex into a couple sentences, lets say that some small space-rock carrying a foreign microbe is able to survive re-entry and lands on the Earth. This microbe multiplies quickly and exploits some unknown/unforeseen vulnerability in this new super-human. Guess what, your ubermensch just bit the dust through natural selection.

The point is, we will never, ever fully come under complete control of either ourselves or our environment. We could attempt to control our reproduction (even that is iffy), but we cannot control the millions of other species that we share this planet with, or our environment, not to mention whatever AI we develop. Even if we started life over in a bubble somewhere (we weren't too successfull with that either, were we?), species will change and adapt to any new environment they are placed in, possibly allowing once-rare mutations to become common, conferring advantage or disadvantage to the species. Sorry man, you just can't escape chaos and the Will of nature.
 
 
Thjatsi
05:12 / 14.10.03
...lets say that some small space-rock carrying a foreign microbe is able to survive re-entry and lands on the Earth. This microbe multiplies quickly and exploits some unknown/unforeseen vulnerability in this new super-human.

This seems pretty unlikely. I'm a lot more worried about heat death or the big crunch.

...species will change and adapt to any new environment they are placed in...

This is a process that takes between thousands and billions of years. Do you really think a group of posthumans couldn't forsee a problem and determine a solution in that period of time? Evolution, even bacterial evolution, doesn't happen overnight.

Sorry man, you just can't escape chaos and the Will of nature.

What is this "will of nature"?
 
 
Tom Coates
07:04 / 14.10.03
I'm not sure it works like that. Did anyone see SARS coming? COULD anyone have seen SARS coming? Given that what we're talking about is a world full of billions of billions of bacteria, viruses and the like continually evolving in the wild. The idea that we could even see all the variation seems unlikely to me. Basically the history of humanity is about gradually diminishing the negative effects of chance on our lives, but I can't foresee any situation in which we manage to eradicate it.
 
 
bjacques
09:37 / 14.10.03
In "The Next 50 Years," Bruce Sterling says posthumans will probably turn up fairly soon. It's worth reading his chapter on them. Basically, they'll be beings whose aspirations and problems have little to do with ours beyond those of basic survival. They won't necessarily be in conflict (unless they eat human brains to survive), but humanity will handle it as sloppily as we've handled other big events and turning points. The questions will be generally addressed mostly in retrospect, as usual.

It probably won't happen all at once, and we can get used to posthumanity while it emerges, and by the time they build a viable community, we and they will (I hope) have gotten to know each other.

At the very least, emergent posthumans will require us humans to grow up as a race. We'll be their parents. If we abuse them, they, like Magneto, will remember that when they become viable. I'm barely optimistic. We've got a history of slavery, child abuse, purges genocide, witch-burnings and animal cruelty--our treatment of each other and of less-intelligent (or less-well organized) animals augurs ill for our possible treatment of truly different beings in their vulnerable stage before viability.

On the other hand, we've had the ability to commit racial suicide for 50+ years and we're still here. Also, harvesting organs from poor people and criminals isn't popular outside China and India (not counting the few others who need them in a hurry), no matter how profitable it is.

I'd say the outlook is slightly favorable, but it's too close to call.
 
 
Thjatsi
16:35 / 14.10.03
Basically the history of humanity is about gradually diminishing the negative effects of chance on our lives, but I can't foresee any situation in which we manage to eradicate it.

I think it would be incorrect to predict a posthuman future based on human history. The entire idea is that humans will have changed so much by that point that there's absolutely no way to determine what their problems will be. The situation is way too complex to predict even basic constants of human existence like the problem of knowledge.

However, this is all irrelevant to the transhumanist position that posthumans can occur, and that they should. Even if the universe is wiped out ten seconds after the first posthuman occurs, it is still a worthwhile goal.
 
 
cusm
17:44 / 14.10.03
I am seeing a flaw in a fundamental assumption: that success is measured by the number of offspring. In our modern society, where pressures of physical survival are no longer a factor, this is simply no longer true. To think this through, here are the assumptons I am working with based upon previous conclusions:

The uneducated breed more than the educated due to lack of access or skill in contraception.

Lefty social programs protect the lowest rungs of society from the effects of physical danger, so that physical survival is possible by all and is no longer an evolutionary factor.

Educated parents typically produce educated children more so than uneducated parents due to availability of resources.

Education is not a sign of genetic disposition towards intelligence, but does benefit from it.

Intelligence is a factor in success, regardless of education or background (ie, an intelligent person from a poorly educated background may still find a way to become successful and raise their standing, their genetic advantage helping them to overcome the social disadvantage, and would be more likely to do so than a less intelligent person).

"Success" is not measured by survival, but how effective the person is in thw social games of humanity. That is, the aquisition of wealth and the progresion of learning.


One can conclude then the results of such a system will produce a large number of persons with less access to education and resources, and a smaller number of persons with a greater and greater access to resources. If smart families are successful and produce smart children who are also successful, then the control of resources remains in the hands of these families and their offspring. Selective breeding continues as the successful prefer to breed with the successful. Their numbers are smaller because the successful prefer fewer children. However, over generations, these more narrow gene lines continue to control more and more resources through their predeliction towards success.

In short, evolution is still working, and there is a form of natural selection at work. However, the results are not a larger number of members of that gene line, but a smaller number who are richer. The conclusion to be drawn is that by removing physical pressures from selection, the trend is reversed and evolution breeds towards singularity. The most "progressed" will control more resources, and be fewer in number. The results is a pyramid structure.

It should also be noted that for the more freely beeding uneducated at the bottom of the pyramid are not selecting unintelligence. They are, in fact, not selecting at all, by and large. They then hold the position of base gene pool from which those with predispositions towards success will occasionally arise and join the ranks of the few at the top. Natural selection is not present in this pool, save perhaps for base physical features preferred by current fashon.

So it is a fallicy to presume that evolution is not existent in our modern society, and that if it is, it is selecting unintelligence. It is present, and is selecting intelligence, but is producing smaller rather than larger numbers of those selected because numbers are no longer considered successful. Its quality over quantity. Evolution for us, it seems, breeds towards aristocracy.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
17:51 / 14.10.03
Sorry Thjatsi, the specific idea that Bloom had which I was referencing came from his interview with Richard Metzger in 'Disinformation: The Interviews' where he talks extensively on the subject. But that's something for another day and another Thread.
 
 
Lurid Archive
18:22 / 14.10.03
Evolution for us, it seems, breeds towards aristocracy. - cusm

I would find this pretty offensive, but I concede that you are trying to assemble an argument. But your argument is a non-starter for the simple reason that the "aristocracy" are not genetically distinct species. OK, so you may want to argue that that is the way we are heading.

But I think you do a poor job of that, failing to examine any of your assumptions and instead relying on a rather simplistic model of a meritocracy whose existence you deem beneath debate.

As a for instance, lets look at

Intelligence is a factor in success, regardless of education or background

OK. Are you saying that the socioeconomic bias present in the US/UK is because the "aristocracy" are genetically superior? I think that is entirely unsupported. And if you don't think that, then how does this socioeconomic bias effect evolutionary pressures? Surely the "aristocracy" will become more stupid over time as they rely on advantages of wealth over inherent qualities?

Ah, but you think that the intelligent will always do better right? Evidence? How do you measure intelligence? Is the person with the most money always likely to be the most intelligent? That rules out any academic, artist or philosopher you have ever heard of.

The whole argument is ill conceived, in my opinion.
 
 
cusm
19:35 / 14.10.03
the "aristocracy" are not genetically distinct species.

Why does that matter? A Rotweiller is not geneticly distinct from a basset hound, yet exhibit distinctly differing traits. The group of humans selected for enhanced traits do not have to be of a different species to exhibit these traits. Why should intelligence be treated differently than hair color in this respect? Evolutionary changes through selection may in time cause a geneticly distinct species to arise, but historicly doesn't this take millions of years? I'd think our present society would have to exist for quite a bit longer that it has for this to happen.

Intelligence is a factor in success, regardless of education or background

OK. Are you saying that the socioeconomic bias present in the US/UK is because the "aristocracy" are genetically superior?

No, I am saying that Intelligence is a factor in success. It is an advantage, like strength and stamina, which can benefit one greater potential for success. It is an advantage which can also assist one to potentially overcome socioeconomic bias. Thus, it is more likely to appear among the successful. Thus, if the successful tend to breed amongst each other, this trait will be propigated. Thus, selection is at work in a positive sense.

Really, the point I have is to invalidate the fearful argument that humans are breeding themselves into stupidity due to lack of Darwinian pressures and a tendency of the "lower classes" to breed more. If the increased breeding is due more to a lack of education (and thus access to resources) than inherent intelligence traits, then intelligence traits are not a factor for breeding selection, and thus are not diminished in the gene pool.

The other point to invalidate is the one that humanity is no longer "progressing" due a lack of selection. The argument here is that selection is taking place, but tends to produce less offspring. So, there is a certain amount of "progress", which may in time (read: millions of years of this current society [a dreadful thought if ever one]) produce geneticly superior humans. Only, it will produce them in minority, and they will not replace the old species since they will not outbreed them.

The normal pattern of evolutionary success resulting in greater numbers is reversed now that physical survival is no longer dependent upon better genes. Selection still occurs, but is now more likely to produce smaller numbers of more superior individuals than an entire new race.
 
 
Lurid Archive
20:43 / 14.10.03
No, I am saying that Intelligence is a factor in success.

It may be. In order to have a genuine evolutionary effect, it would really have to be a large scale effect. You can't just assume that something is an advantage, with little proof and no counter to the charge that other factors are more significant and expect to be taken seriously. It is absurd. Not every characteristic that confers even the smallest advantage is selected for in some exponential explosion.

And I still think your point is offensive. You are claiming that the "aristocracy" are observably more intelligent, because they earn more. You have absolutely no evidence of this, you don't even pretend to, and your point has some fairly racist corollaries. BTW - all studies which try to show that blacks are less intelligent than whites tend to have serious problems. By your argument blacks, being poorer on average than whites, must be less intelligent.

BTW - how do you measure intelligence?

Its not that I won't consider what you say. But I think you are going to have to do a hell of a lot better than some poorly digested economics combined with an ignorance of biology used to support some pretty obvious bigotry.
 
 
cusm
21:16 / 14.10.03
By your argument blacks, being poorer on average than whites, must be less intelligent.

By my argument, intelligence is less a factor of choice for "those who breed the most", and thus can not be concluded to be diminishing among said groups. Kindly stop trying to call me a bigot and stick to my point if you wish to argue, which is that the original theory that the lower classes are breeding themselves into stupidity is false, as is the theory that selection no longer exists among humans.

The original theory in this thread was based upon the idea that "smart people" breed less than the rest of their kin, that "humanist egalitarianism stagnates evolution". This in turn is based upon a classical view of evolution where a more successful genetic branch comes to dominate the gene pool because less successful types are less survivable. I disagree, on the grounds that evolution is continuing, but that the model has changed to whee survival is no longer a factor. A "more successful" offspring is not one who survives, but who goes further. Thus, by societies measure of success, more "successful" offspring may be rich, fameous, intelligent, well liked, or otherwise superior to the average person. If this superiority was assisted by traits, and successful people tend towards choosing other successful people as breeding partners (as is demonstated by thousands of years of human classism), then common traits will be developed. If these traits are beneficial, progress is made. Selection is taking place which promotes certain traits. With selection, comes change and evolution. Thus, evolution is continuing, albeit in smaller pockets rather than as a whole.
 
 
Lurid Archive
21:48 / 14.10.03
I'm really not putting words into your mouth, cusm. You have pretty clearly stated that there is a correlation between wealth and intelligence. The latter being a sufficient factor in the former as to constitute an evolutionary pressure.

You seem to think that you can rebut this by saying that the poor aren't more stupid, but it is the rich who are more clever. I don't know how to respond to that without being rude.

I have given you plenty of arguments as to why I don't think that holds and why I think you are falling back on stereotypes. I could go back and quote myself and list all the points I make that you fail to address. But I am trying to be civil. Yes, I admit that I am finding your line offensive. But, even worse, after I make the effort to respond to you in a reasoned way, you challenge me to "stick to your point". I *disagree* with your point and have quite carefully told you why.

If you are unwilling or unable to respond, then I suppose I should just leave you to it. And I would, except that I don't much like what you are saying.
 
 
BioDynamo
17:55 / 15.10.03

Go Rage!

Uhh... I was going to post something sensible, but I'm drunk.

Probably this means I'll be weeded out of the gene-pool pretty soon.
 
 
alas
21:58 / 15.10.03
Though people with fewer resources tend to have more children, that may be for lack of education, not intelligence. "Education is the best contraceptive. If you brought these people up in the middle class they would have fewer children," Dr. Pagel said. "Fisher's empirical observation is correct, that the lower orders have more babies, but that doesn't mean their genotypes are inferior."

This is rather an astounding statement. First off, LOTS of studies have been done on this issue--this article sounds as if it's completely unstudied--and they point to one thing: women's education.

But educating women does NOT change the situation because poor women otherwise "breed" with no real thought for the future, or "breed" because they can't get modern contraceptive methods. OFTEN poor people are having children because there's an economic advantage in their current cultural situation to having more children. Of course sometimes there is force involved as well--they are having more children than they want to because of pressure from male-dominated social structures. Education, as defined under the current New World/Globalized order of things, often gives them more economic power and therefore a greater ability to have a voice in their social system.

BUT: Education DOES NOT = Intelligence. First off, BOTH of these terms are unintelligible outside a social system: there is no intelligence that is "objective" because it is based on cultural values. There is no education outside a social system. When, in fact, I wrote "women's education" above, I was eliding the fact that EVERY society educates its children. Because of cultural imperialism we tend not to see the kinds of skills and knowledge that Souix adults trained children in as "education," and we tend not to see the kinds of survival skills and knowledge that allow black kids in East LA to survive a very complex and challenging environment as education.

Wealthy people simply have an aesthetic revulsion to poor people's ability to have children. This revulsion is based in greed. Full Stop. This makes wealthy people decide that poor people are a, if not THE "problem." (One middle-class American child has a bigger environmental footprint than an entire impoverished family in India. The economic situation of that child's parents, and their value system, will make the rich people decide not to "breed" more of their ilk. Just as impoverished people--generally speaking--read their situation and determine the number of children its in their interests to have.)

Also, this is a bit outside my expertise, but isn't it true that wide genetic variation is a survival benefit, because of all the problems that "hybrids" face? (I've read the thread, and it may simply be my ignorance of certain terms that makes it difficult for me to see any reference to this...)
 
 
cusm
14:43 / 16.10.03
You have pretty clearly stated that there is a correlation between wealth and intelligence. The latter being a sufficient factor in the former as to constitute an evolutionary pressure.

What I am stating is less that there is a correlation between wealth and intelligence so much as that positive traits in general contribute to success, intelligence being one example. Charisma, determination, and even good looks are others. The example is not the thesis.

More simply then:

Social pressure among the wealthy to breed amongst their own kind constitutes a form of selection.

If there are traits in common to the wealthy which assisted them or their predecessors in becomming wealthy in the first place, these traits will be propigated.

Thus, evolution.

Obviously, I can't speculate on what those traits might be for fear of an example being offensive. But I suppose that is just as well, as sadly I really couldn't say difinitively in today's society if intelligence or similar traits are more or less effective in obtaining wealth as something as trivial as northern european descent and a Y chromosome.

Nevertheless, where there is selection, survival, and success, there is evolution. Thus, egalitarianism has not stagnated evolution, for the pressures are simply different from those of basic survival now.
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:50 / 16.10.03
If there are traits in common to the wealthy which assisted them or their predecessors in becomming wealthy in the first place, these traits will be propigated.

Thus, evolution.


Right. But only if there is a correlation between the wealthy and these nebulous traits which we don't want to name or be pinned down upon. You are being ridiculous, cusm. You can't select for a trait unless that trait is present over and above that in the general population.

Its like you were telling me that certain dogs were being bred for stength and then objecting when I pointed out that those dogs would have to be stronger than average.

The fact that you don't like me pointing it out, that you don't like the flaws and that you don't like the racist corrolaries is irrelevant. Its not about what you would like me to hear, its about what you are actually saying.
 
 
cusm
18:14 / 16.10.03
You miss the point, Lurid. Nature doesn't select for traits. Nature selects for Success. Traits follow. I am illustrating a condition where selection is made on the basis of success. I don't have to show a link between this and specific traits. If there is such a link, evolution will show it for me in a million years or so. The important thing is that selection of this nature is taking place at all, for without it there can be no evolution.
 
 
Lurid Archive
19:11 / 16.10.03
For a start, success in this context is disputable to say the least. You haven't argued numbers, you haven't made a case that there is any pressure at all. The intermingling of the distinct groups, the reproductive correlation of those with success and the level of that correlation are all factors that you cannot ignore.

Second, if you are going to deny that there are any traits whatsoever to distinguish your group apart from "wealth", then you do not have a leg to stand on. Evolution does not "select" for a stock exchange portfolio. You cannot "genetically" be blessed with a house in Beverley Hills and you cannot be biologically favoured with a reservation at Eton. If you are going to argue that there is some evolutionary pressure here, you have to admit that some trait or other is being selected for. If nothing causes your barely argued for "success", then nothing can result from evolution.
 
 
cusm
20:11 / 16.10.03
You are correct in that we can not mathematicly prove genetic traits as having been the cause for economic success (nor should we, for obvious social reasons). However, they also can not be proven to be uneffective, either. If one person is more successful than another given the same starting point, it is not unreasonable to suspect one may have had a slight genetic advantage over the other. This may be an upsetting concept, but thus is the cruel basis of Darwinism. But again, that is not the point.

Nature is not selecting. Humans are selecting based upon their own views of what is "success". Nature measures success by survival. We don't. However, we still select based upon perceptions of success. For many, and for the case in question of a group known to be selective on this crieteria for most of known human history, wealth selects wealth. Pressure in this case is social pressure, and history is sufficient to prove its existence.

What you do not wish to admidt is the possibility that genetic traits may have contributed to an individual becomming or continuing to be wealthy, because this has implications of racist thinking which makes your knee jerk. This distracts from the more important point I am trying to make regarding selection in modern human society, where traditional pressures of selection (survival) are no longer existent and are instead replaced by different pressures (social). My theory then is that over the span of time, should these pressures continue for a suitably long enough period for evolution to take its course, they will cause for genetic change as surely as survival pressures have in the past.

Pressure is pressure. The leap is in recognizing that there are other pressures which affect selection more than those of basic survival for the modern human (which the original theory of this thread does not consider), and to treat them in a similar manner for evolutionary expectations.
 
 
Lurid Archive
20:55 / 16.10.03
What you do not wish to admidt is the possibility that genetic traits may have contributed to an individual becomming or continuing to be wealthy, because this has implications of racist thinking which makes your knee jerk.

No, cusm. What I don't accept is that a total meritocracy is in operation. Some innate talent may have effects on people's wealth. But the effect is so complicated and so diluted by other pressures that to talk simply about the "gifted" becoming more wealthy is laughable. What about those who choose less wealth? What about socioeconomic mobility? You need some to justify your argument, but too much destroys the segregation you claim exists. What about the fact that intelligence fails to correlate with wealth?

Its not that I reject your idea because my knee is jerking. Its just that you haven't offered anything to justify it *except* a crude form of right wing capitalist dogma.

To put it another way,

If one person is more successful than another given the same starting point, it is not unreasonable to suspect one may have had a slight genetic advantage over the other.

Yes, it is. Lets leave aside the fact that you are claiming that some kind of unmeasurable talent overcomes all differences.

Are we saying that these two people had the same ambitions, the same desires and goals to be wealthy? Do you really find it inconceivable that one becomes a poorer artist and the other a lawyer with little difference in intelligence? Can you really not see what a narrow view of the world that is?

Not *everything* is genetic or genetically determined. If you want to justify some evolutionary trend, you have to do a lot better than that.
 
 
diz
22:23 / 19.10.03
not diz, but diz's girlfriend...sorry but I don't have an account but wanted to comment

An alternate to the above debates about the correlation between wealth in our society and fewer offspring is that there is some evidence that fewer offspring can actually be the force of natural selection. In the event of a massive species wide die off (as has happened with humans, where 90% or more of the species is killed at one time and extinction is near) having fewer offspring dramatically increases the chance that those offspring (and the all important genetic information) will survive.

Apparently this theory came as a result of some bird studies, where there is strong evidence to back it up (birds who consistantly have less offspring than the environment can support.) I can probably drudge up the studies if anyone's interested.

But yeah, I personally think it's bullshit, and the consolidation of wealth is one of those many areas where memes merge (classical immediate natural selection urge to have more offspring meme with the money is power meme) but regardless, I thought the mass die off theory was interesting. (Especailly because I think it's one of the more interesting charachteristics in human evolution.)
 
  

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