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Does humanist egalitarianism stagnate evolution?

 
  

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Rage
13:30 / 28.09.03
Seems like lots of liberals have a need to protect the entire human race: make sure everyone is happy and comfortable, etc. etc. etc.

My question is this: does the protection of "weak" people stagnate evolution?

There's also the issue of knowing how to count to 20 when most of the human race only knows how to count to 10. Let's face it, guys, you know what I'm talking about here. (uncomfortable as it might be) People seem to have this thing where they want to wait for the rest of the human race to learn how to count to 20 before they can declare themselves at 20. It's that whole group mentally thing, where until the rest of the human race has become homo divinus (or whatever we're calling it these days) people assume themselves to be mere homo sapien. It's as if a splinter group from the human gene pool is forbidden or something.

I see nothing wrong with different stages of evolution coexisting in this society: why do people see themselves as unified with the human race when they could diverge to something beyond it? Why have people been programmed to associate "a new race" with Nazism?

So many questions. Not sure where to start, even. I know a lot of these issues hurt the minds of you PC folk. Good.

In evolution a new species eventually takes the place of an old one. You either adapt to the new species or perish. People seem to be afraid of this happening. They'd rather keep a bunch of silly humans alive than live in a smaller world of a more evolved species. Why?
 
 
Tom Coates
14:29 / 28.09.03
Well obviously you've put this in a slightly tendentious way, but still - I think it's not only an interesting question but a profoundly important one. I think someone on Radio 4 was arguing about this the other day - arguing that evolution must now have ended since we'd removed all the selective pressues. I don't buy it myself (I think the selective pressures aren't necessarily the ones he's thinking of, and I'm also not convinced that the most intelligent is necessarily 'the most evolved'), but I'm quite willing to discuss it... Although since I think this is likely to get quite technical quite quickly, I'm going to suggest a move to the Laboratory.
 
 
Tom Coates
14:36 / 28.09.03
There's a fascinating New York Times article that unfortunately I can't link to which has stuff about this. I'll post a few key bits:

Most animals struggle to survive in a harsh environment, beset by accidents and predators. Humans got that problem largely under control long ago but live in a fiercer jungle — that of a human society. Indeed, social intelligence — the ability to keep track of a society's hierarchy and what chits an individual owed to others or had due — may have been a factor in the increase of human brain size. As the prevalence of Caesareans suggests, the circumference of babies' brains seems to have gotten as large as circumstances permit. Will requirements for extra neural circuitry make our descendants into coneheads? Doubtless, sexual selection will maintain a decorative swatch of hair on top.

Society, and the knowledge needed to survive in it, seems to get ever more complex, suggesting that human social behavior will continue to evolve. Unfortunately, evolution has no concept of progress, so behavioral change is not always for the better. "I suspect that our social behavior evolves rapidly but that much of it changes direction over time," said Dr. Henry C. Harpending, an evolutionary anthropologist at the University of Utah.

Warrior societies like the Yanomamo of South America give reproductive success to the man who is "violent, scary and effective at male-male conflict," whereas among peasant farmers, the successful male would be one who feeds his children and passes on an estate to them, Dr. Harpending said.

A dramatic instance of the former process came to light earlier this year with the discovery that no less than 8 percent of men who live today in the former domains of the Mongol empire carry the Y chromosome of Genghis Khan and the Mongol royal house. It is hard to see a Genghis having much reproductive success in modern societies. Perhaps another Panglossian prediction is called for: in a more ordered society, evolution will favor the fostering type of male over the Yanomamo-style brutes.

Not everything is roses in evolution's garden. Ronald Fisher, the British biologist, pointed out in 1930 that the genes for mental ability tend to move upward through the social classes but that fertility is higher in the lower social classes. He concluded that selection constantly opposes genes that favor creativity and intelligence.

Fisher's idea has not been proven wrong in theory, although many biologists, besides detesting it for the support it gave to eugenic policies, believe it has proven false in practice. "It hasn't been formally refuted in the sense that we could never test it," Dr. Pagel said. Though people with fewer resources tend to have more children, that may be for lack of education, not intelligence. "Education is the best contraceptive. If you brought these people up in the middle class they would have fewer children," Dr. Pagel said. "Fisher's empirical observation is correct, that the lower orders have more babies, but that doesn't mean their genotypes are inferior."

Given all the possibilities for human evolutionary change, it is hard to know which path our distant descendants will be constrained to tread. From a New York perspective, however, it is hard to ignore a certain foreboding: that under the joint power of sexual selection and Fisher's gloomy prognosis we will become ever more beautiful and less acute. The future, in a word, is Californian.
 
 
w1rebaby
15:27 / 28.09.03
Questions like this seem to betray the questioner not understanding what evolution is, and thinking it means "progress". (If Rage is going to be tendentious, so shall I.) This is to me a very old-fashioned "heirarchy of the species" concept. Apes are "lower" than man. Man evolved from apes. Therefore evolution is progress.

Nonsense. There is no "more evolved" or "less evolved". Evolution is not progress, it is adapting to circumstances.

The fact that in some environments so-called "weak" people are not dying out means they are not weak. If they have other people protecting them enough to breed, they are not evolutionarily disadvantaged. (Clearly they are not, if they are surviving to breed.) Now, you might say that if some catastrophe arises certain gene lines might die out, and that might be true, but that's always a possibility whatever your genetics.

If you don't care about people, don't care about them. Trying to claim there's a great scientific reason for not caring about them is fooling yourself. And weak, if you ask me.

In evolution a new species eventually takes the place of an old one.

This is utterly untrue. There are plenty of species that have been around for millions of years, regardless of what has evolved from them.
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:55 / 28.09.03
Well, speaking as an ordinary human I say, Go fridge!

Also, the idea that you can "adapt" as a matter of choice is nothing to do with evolution. You can adapt to circumstances, sure, but that does not change your species. As for,

Why have people been programmed to associate "a new race" with Nazism?

I think the reason is that once you start thinking of yourself as better than humans (for which you have no scientifically plausible reason), then you may well start treating "normals" with contempt. The othering of a segment of humanity is a fairly large step toward the mistreatment of that segment.

Tom wants to ask the braoder question, however, of where evolution is taking us, if anywhere. Well, the Fisher analysis is clearly quite flawed. It may be that we are evolutionarily stable at the moment, but then again maybe not.
 
 
Thjatsi
19:38 / 28.09.03
Evolution is irrelevant. Natural selection is based upon genetic information, and we gain more control over that information every day. It isn't sensible to make predictions based on evolution when cloning and germinal choice technology are a decade away.

If your goal is to make something better than man, natural selection is a poor way to achieve it.
 
 
Linus Dunce
00:44 / 29.09.03
Natural selection is not about genetic information, it is about the suitability (not the same as strength or weakness) of a product to its environment. The actual mechanism by which the variations occur is almost irrelevant. So you could knock up something in a test tube, but it would still be subject to natural selection. It would perhaps be possible to build a fully-working and complete model of the universe in order to predict exactly how the new improved organism would fit in, but that would require a pretty sophisticated machine which we're nowhere near building.

BTW, I can't think at the moment how such a notional machine could be any smaller than the universe it simulated, given that the model would have to include all the sub-atomic parts as well ...
 
 
Thjatsi
02:20 / 29.09.03
Natural selection is not about genetic information...

The following passage is taken from Biology (sixth edition, by Campbell and Reece:

The basic idea of natural selection is that a population of organisms can change over the generations if individuals having certain heritable traits leave more offspring than other individuals. The result of natural selection is evolutionary adaptation, a prevalence of inherited characteristics that enhance organisms' survival and reproduction in specific environments. In modern terms, we would say that the genetic composition of the population has changed over time, and that is one way of defining evolution.

So, in terms of Biology, natural selection is based on genetic information. Besides, a ribozyme (which I assume is what you're referring to) that can replicate itself in a test tube is using RNA, which is genetic material.

I suppose you could make the case that computer A-life simulations and genetic algorithms are using natural selection. However, I'm not certain why you would bring this up in a thread about human evolution.
 
 
Rage
07:45 / 29.09.03
The Neanderthals are still around too, Fridge.

Evolution is adapating to circumstances. Sure. This means that we took part in evolution as we faced the harsh conditions of the desert in Black Rock City. Very possibly- that's what our culture has been saying. Evolution is also progress: progress and adaptation go hand in hand. Look how much progress the homo erectus made. Evolution is a change from one state to another.

But maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about: back in college I did my final Anthropology presentation on transhumanism and got a C. My professor said I didn't follow the correct formula. Guess I forgot my topic abstract.

Apathy towards humanity can be explained with "great scientific reason," as can anything else.

"If your goal is to make something better than man, natural selection is a poor way to achieve it."

Cutting edge. We're getting to goals now. Heh. I've always been into cybernetics and nanotechnology.

Robo-Erectus for sale! Robo-Erectus for sale!

I still say that people with bizarre mutations should get together and fuck. Better yet, get all people with "delusions of grander" together and actually manifest our shit. Sometimes unity isn't so commie.

On another note, the idea of animals breeding with humans has always fascinated me. Seems like so many options are arising these days. As a naive 19 year old brat, I find myself pretty excited about the future, and don't think that "protecting people" is anything but a hindrance towards fantastic possibilities. It's slowing shit down. To imply that someone is evolutiony adapt because they have a bunch of security agents protecting them is evoltuionarily retarded.
 
 
Ganesh
08:46 / 29.09.03
Depends on what one considers "progress" and which people one feels are being wrongly 'protected' by those danged "liberals". One could, for example, quite convincingly argue that those individuals with "delusions of grandeur" are manifesting psychological illness which therefore makes them "weak" in evolutionary terms - and ought to be forcibly sterilised before they fuck up the gene pool with their psychiatric wankfest.

So... it kinda depends who's drawing up the categories and how they interpret the 'fittest'.
 
 
Ariadne
10:13 / 29.09.03
If you consider success to mean continuation and survival, then the people who quietly get on and have loads of children and bring them up and look forward to grandchildren (and look after any of those children who are not able to look after themselves) are much more successful than the kerazy people with their delusions of grandeur who are hooning about being 'advanced'.

As Ganesh says, what makes someone 'fittest'? A stockbroker who goes to work on the tube every day and spends his evenings watching TV with his kids, spending lots of money to make sure they're healthy and wealthy themselves when they grow up - he and his are going to survive well and breed. Or at the other end of the economic scale, someone bringing up seven kids on benefits ... they're breeding, they're surviving too.

Personally I don't fancy your world of progress and consider caring societies to be preferrable to the harsh one you seem to be proposing. Which is more 'advanced' is open to question.
 
 
Rage
10:50 / 29.09.03
Harsh, Ganesh. Good shit.

But one could always aruge that people who believe in "psychological illness" are weak because they haven't gone beyond the paradigm of "thinking-in-certain-ways-is-psychologically-unsound." One could advocate forcibly sterilizing all humans stuck in that thought tunnel.

And now that we're looking at it, anything or anyone could be considered "weak" or "strong," so we've entered a game of evolutionary semantics.

Let's hypothetically say that all law and power structures have been elimiated. I'd consider the "strong" the people who would survive. Darwinian Anarchy. But you guys seem to have a problem with the A word unless it coexists with Agenda.
 
 
Ganesh
11:00 / 29.09.03
Let's hypothetically say that all law and power structures have been eliminated. I'd consider the "strong" the people who would survive.

So, given this sudden hypothetical diversion from human nature (we all decide to abandon "law and power structures" overnight), who would survive? Those who're physically strongest? Those with the most guns? Those who're more socially adept and therefore best able to manipulate the physically strong and/or trigger-happy? Those trained in specific skills? Those best at teamworking? Or those with "delusions of grandeur"?

Seems like we'd start to form those ol' power structures pretty damn quickly.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:04 / 29.09.03
Why aren't the "strong" those that group together and rebuild those structures for the benefit of their society and communities? You see, even in a harsh Darwinian scrap, one can still make a good case for cooperation and support. If you also factor in human nature as a social animal, it becomes pretty inevitable IMO.

To put it another way, we *are* in Darwinian anarchy and have chosen to do this with it. If some superior individual thinks that this is just weakness, they are free to go and find some isolated spot to build their superculture of superbeings. Because they would *obviously* flourish, being so strong and all.
 
 
Rage
11:05 / 29.09.03
Ganesh: How are we suppose to know until it happens? You want me to speculate?
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
11:10 / 29.09.03
How exactly are we defining 'caring'. Are we talking about the 'Welfare State' or something much more fundamental, like a denial of basic human rights (such as breeding) to 'weaker' individuals?
This might be counter-productive; the less well-off people are, the more they tend to breed. In a 'Darwinian Anarchy' (a Hobbesian 'War against all') situation it'd be strength of numbers that'd decide the outcome, and our evolutionary future. A PHd isn't going to do you a whole lot of good when fifty people twice your body weight and half your IQ are bludgeoning you to death.
Also, WHY exactly are we committing ourselves to long-term evolutionary success? Personally I don't care if my hundred-times great-grandchildren have giant grey-alien style heads: I'm gonna be long dead!
I'd rather select my sex partners on 'So, you like music?' (or something equally vapid) than 'Tell me, is there any history of mental illness in your family?'
 
 
Ganesh
11:18 / 29.09.03
How are we suppose to know until it happens? You want me to speculate?

In hypothesising the abrupt and simultaneous dissolution of all law and power structures, you are speculating. My point is, that doesn't particularly advance any argument, as it's anyone's guess who'd survive. Personally, I suspect those with "delusions of grandeur" would sink or swim on the strength of their individual charisma, and whether they could persuade anyone else their 'delusions' were suitably visionary. If not, they'd need to develop other, more practical survival skills pretty quickly.

As Lurid says, the ability to cooperate toward a common aim is arguably humanity's greatest evolutionary trump card. Dismiss it as weak or useless herd mentality at your peril...
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:20 / 29.09.03
A PHd isn't going to do you a whole lot of good when fifty people twice your body weight and half your IQ are bludgeoning you to death.

Because we all know that people with PhD's are supergenii compared to the scum of menial labourers?
 
 
Linus Dunce
13:58 / 29.09.03
Thjatsi -- The paragraph you quote is merely a quick summary of evolutionary theory (as one would expect from something that sought to cover the whole of Biology) and a rather poor one at that. It is not just a matter of how many offspring an organism generates, it is a matter of how well those offspring survive. I would suggest you read and digest the whole chapter.

But this is off-topic. Feel free to PM.
 
 
Ganesh
14:52 / 29.09.03
Ah, synchronicity! I'm reading Patricia Highsmith's 'Strangers On A Train' at the moment, and stumbled across the following:

THE LEADEN-EYED
by Vachel Lindsay

Let not young souls be
smothered out before
They do quaint deeds and fully
flaunt their pride.
It is the world's one crime its
babes grow dull,
Its poor are ox-like, limp and leaden-eyed.

Not that they starve, but starve
so dreamlessly,
Not that they sow, but that they
seldom reap,
Not that they serve, but have no
gods to serve,
Not that they die, but that they
die like sheep.


In the novel, the poem's been torn out of a college textbook and treasured by Bruno, the murdering, sociopathic boozehound dilettante who exists, leech-like, on his mother's allowance. He fancies himself apart from the poem's leaden-eyed 'sheep' by dint of having abandoned the rules of bourgeois society sufficient to murder a relative stranger.

To an extent, I think Bruno's poem illustrates one of the problems with extending the transhumanistic argumant; it can serve to actively dehumanise those who are perceived as 'holding us all back' - and that, in turn, enables us to 'cleanse' them from society...
 
 
Thjatsi
07:51 / 30.09.03
It is not just a matter of how many offspring an organism generates, it is a matter of how well those offspring survive. I would suggest you read and digest the whole chapter.

What should I do, retype Origin of the Species, so I can completely derail the thread and bore everyone at the same time? The passage's point was to help explain why genetic information is required for natural selection in humans. I didn't mention punctuated equilibrium or allopatric speciation either, because it isn't relevant to the matter at hand. If you want to continue, start a new thread.

...one of the problems with extending the transhumanistic argument; it can serve to actively dehumanise those who are perceived as 'holding us all back' - and that, in turn, enables us to 'cleanse' them from society...

I am a transhumanist, and I think you've misunderstood our position. It is true that we seek something better than man, generally referred to as a posthuman. However, we have absolutely no interest in persecuting those who decide to maintain their humanity. Rage's little nightmare is not what I or any other transhumanist wants for the future, and it is the product of outdated thinking based on the survival of the fittest.

I will admit that I feel significant contempt for people like Leon Kass, who attempt to use the government to prevent transhumanists from from peacefully achieving their personal goals. However, I'm sure as hell not trying to cleanse him from society.

Ganesh, I and every transhumanist I know of believe in the right to bodily autonomy. Individuals have the right to do what they choose with their body, provided that they do not put others at significant risk. My belief in this right is the reason why I accept your homosexuality, and react negatively to anyone who would attempt to persecute you for it. Our belief in this right is the reason why we respect other people's choice to remain human.

By the way, here's a link to a lecture on transhumanist bioethics. The second half clears up a few of the misconceptions about transhumanism.
 
 
Linus Dunce
11:03 / 30.09.03
No it doesn't.
 
 
Ganesh
11:41 / 30.09.03
Okay, I should've clarified my earlier statement as referring specifically to Rage's take on the transhumanist position.
 
 
Rage
07:50 / 02.10.03
I in no way speak for the general transhumantist population, especially not you scholarly dippledots. If my "little nightmare" is outdated thinking, your "little textbook" reeks of banality. Time itself is outdated. Survival of the fittest, survival of the most resources, best at the game of Risk, whatever. It's all as over as anything else, and can be explained accordingly.

I put "delusions of grander" in quotation marks for a reason. You guys are good at taking things out of context. There wouldn't be a "delusions of grander" if more people manifested the said "delusion." In fact, I'll go as far as saying that "delusions" are "illusions" that get discounted by society as impossible. They're perceptions not yet activated. Potential buttons not yet pressed.
 
 
Lurid Archive
08:39 / 02.10.03
It's all as over as anything else, and can be explained accordingly.

Why don't you, then?

Thing is, Rage, you aren't the first person to think that they are better than the boring normals. You aren't the first person to think that liberal concerns with rights and so forth are holding the cream of humanity back. Granted, someone like you would probably have been more likely thought of as cullable rather than supreme but that isn't entirely relevant.

What I think is relevant is that you find the idea of treating other human beings with respect "banal". Its very sad. Rebellion for its own sake is as much as a trap as conformity. Read the papers and you'll see that rebelling against the liberal conspiracy is about as mainstream as you can get.
 
 
Ganesh
09:21 / 02.10.03
Whether one considers the term "delusion" an indicator that someone is sick in the head or an indicator that society is sick all over, pretty much everyone with "delusions of grandeur" has a different take on things. Perhaps necessarily, they typically don't share the same "delusions of grandeur" - and are thus somewhat unlikely to unite in the common cause of 'I'm Better Than Everyone Else'.

Why are Rage's "delusions", for example, any less banal than those of David Icke, one time Son of God? Or Mariah Carey? Or the ex-patient of mine who believes she is the physical incarnation of, simultaneously, Mary Queen of Scots and Mary Mother of God, and wealthy beyond her wildest dreams (despite, mysteriously, subsisting on meagre benefits in a grotty council flat)?

Delusions are not delusions because they're deemed "impossible" (many delusions are, coincidentally, true), but Rage is correct in asserting that they must be adjudged within a sociocultural context - and if everyone in a given society believed that, say, they were in communication with a mysterious entity who answered their prayers, we wouldn't have madness but religion.

Thing is, this socioculturally flexible model of illness and thus 'fitness' jars somewhat with the comparitively 'hard' pseudo-evolutionary gobbets evoked at the start of this thread, the latter suggesting that there exists some sort of underlying 'natural order' which is being thwarted by - tchoh! - those pesky "liberals" with their misguided credo of respect for the 'weak'.

If it's really "all as over as anything else", and this soon-to-be coalition of the delusionally grand are, with well-oiled inevitability, poised to transform humanity, how are the evolutionarily strong preparing for conquest? By subsisting on meagre benefits in grotty council flats? By posting 'I'm Better Than Everyone Else' on Internet message-boards? By regurgiting prechewed Nietzche, while waiting/hoping for (r)evolution to take its course?

What y'rebelling against, Rage? And how are y'doin' it?
 
 
Rage
14:01 / 11.10.03
Check it out, mutiez. An extinct species of exotic bird is not a solution to this resistance of blockage, even if the ear holds magical treasure that must be obtained by the reading and/or writing of sociological bookchapters. There is nothing to rebel against, not unless you count a bit of everything without the negation of blind acceptance. We can taste and hear better, that way. We are the lucky few. The chosen barbelith higherace. You must not know what's really going on here. The GRAND OAR ship was trasmitting the scriptures last night. Weaklings!

Nietzche was a Nazi. Ewww. And David Icke always knew he was one of the lizards.

Minds are breaking free of "leave delusion" signs. You call it a delusion and we called it a new creation. Art of the mind, you bohemian heroin pushers.
 
 
Tom Coates
20:01 / 11.10.03
I'm afraid I didn't understand any of that last post. My problem with the overt eugenic approach is simply one of who gets to do the choosing. Everyone seems to have a different sense of what we should be aspiring to - is it a world without the physically disabled or the stupid, or people of different sexualities, or people with different coloured skins or people who 'nature' would have winnowed out if only we hadn't intervened. Every consideration eventually comes down to politics - who you think deserves to live - and as such it stops being a discussion that any human being can have without being overtly corrupt. That's not to say that we can't talk in the abstract - it seems likely that the human race now includes many people capable of breeding and having children who would have died off even fifty years ago. That that might make our race less biologically fit for our environment also seems clear. What rather undermines that is the presence of technology and large abstracted social organisations - two massive shifts that mean that different criteria come into play with regard to evolution and survival than before. Clearly the evolution of some social structures, economic systems, religions and political systems give the people who occupy them a reproductive advantage. You only have to see Catholicism to know that. So the question becomes - has biological fitness become less important than 'social fitness'? Is an appeal to return to pure biology and raw adaptive pressures on food and health actually a retrograde step that would result in a decrease in reproductive success and death for the individual? For example - if you looked for the pre-social, pre-technological human and placed them in the context of the current world, would they really have much chance of successfully having many healthy children?

The weird thing about this is that we don't have anything to compare ourselves too. We don't really have any evidence about what happens when a species achieves large-scale control over its environment to the extent that we have - because we're the only species to have done it that we're aware of. It could be that evolution goes through fairly obvious stratified transitions and that we're just at the beginning of one of those transitions. Or it could be an obvious and fatal dead-end... Who knows!
 
 
Ganesh
20:02 / 11.10.03
You call it a delusion and we called it a new creation.

You don't know what I call it. Whatever "it" is.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
12:58 / 12.10.03
Jeez, I'll have some of what Rage' was having for that last post. PCP maybe
And can we stop ripping on Nietzche? He, like the Existentialists he begat, knew that life was a little pointless in the absense of a Prime Cause and SUGGESTED the Ubermensch thing as a way of passing our time. It's a hobby, not a religion. Like the man says: "Humanity must WILL the Superman" - we get a choice about it.
He also wasn't a Nazi and would have probably been disgusted by the Third Reich. He ended a long-term friendship with Richard Wagner on the basis of one Anti-semitic remark.
And, back on topic, what exactly is your idea of a Posthuman? The Nietzchean Superman seems to be the nearest thing I can think of (sorry, but I've not read any Posthumanist writing) - that is, a person able to exercise their Will without regard to social/religious pressures, positively affirm their life etc. This would be a psychological Posthuman, with little different about their genetic makeup. These people already exist to some extent; just read Ian Brady's 'The Gates of Janus' if you need proof of where this thought-process leads.
The other option would be an entirely evolutionary Superman, which Tom Coates and Ganesh have already pretty much refuted. You just need to read Howard Bloom or anything on AI evolution to know that micro-organisms and microprocessors have us licked on the evolutionary front, one or the other will wipe us out, probably this century, maybe within our lifetimes (You and I are both 19 Rage, and medical technology being what it is we'll probably get to see a lot, if not all, of the 21st century.) There's no way we can use Eugenics or even mass germ-line manipulation to get around it, we just don't have enough time to go Posthuman.
I know it's the last thing somebody with passionate beliefs wants to hear, but: Give it up. Go get laid, paint a picture, buy a Flaming Lips record, write a novel; you've got a bit of talent, judging from your last post, if only you'd tone it down a little and let the nice doctor give you a rabies shot
 
 
grant
16:39 / 12.10.03
Tom: My problem with the overt eugenic approach is simply one of who gets to do the choosing....
Every consideration eventually comes down to politics


Well, I think Rage's point in the first post is that natural process will take the place of politics -- that it's a matter of seeing which way the evolutionary wave is moving and positioning yourself to take the greatest advantage of that.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:47 / 12.10.03
Rage, I hope you won't take this the wrong way, but I'm curious: How does your professed enthusiasm for social Darwinism sit with your own lifestyle? I belive you're still receiving disability benefit; don't benefits of this kind represent the 'protection of "weak" people' that you mention in your first post?
 
 
Rage
08:41 / 13.10.03
I had everyone here flamed and was name-dropping that Knowledge guy, but I edited before that many people saw. This place can be really tiring sometimes. Nietzche wasn't even his own Superman, and I must say that crediting him with the idea is an insult to sci-fi. Sure, he was the first one to give it a name, but people had been thinking about it for centuries. And I don't think he was a Nazi, but it's fun saying that to get people angry.

Mordant, thanks for not kissing Rage-ass. I'm not the one who's asking for the money from those guys. It's being given to me so I won't work. If disablitity for so-called insanity is "protecting weak people" do you think the reason so many people who are considered insane-disabled consider themselves mutants is to say "fuck you, socialist Darwin!" Because the last time I checked, I was talking about the strong being telekinetic, telepathic, etc. not socially uber. In fact, "evolutionary agents" who discuss their superhuman powers (mentally superior shit, or at least shit with the potential to be manifested) are seen as "weak" by society and in need of aid. Or worse- put away.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was into social Darwanism. In fact, I'd think the title of my post would imply otherwise. (you guys know it was originally posted to the Switchboard and moved, right?) Social Darwanism hurts Darwanism. It prevents the individual from reaching his or her full potential, because it dances with the species as opposed to the individual beat. Survival of the fittest my ass.

I guess we're running into a lot of complications here, and I'm not gonna claim to have the answers to all of them. We've all got different definitions of fittest (and of "of") and we've all got different ideas as to what the stage after homo sapien will be like. Personally, I think we'd have a good idea if we pictured a world where we used twice as much of our brain. I like Terence Mckenna's idea of physical presence in the Imagination World after 2012, and having virtual access to this realm would be pretty damn cool if you ask me. Bring on the brain chips.

We could go on about this forever. Sometimes I love you guys for this. Other times I want to pull a 9/11 on this place.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:56 / 13.10.03
So the question becomes - has biological fitness become less important than 'social fitness'? - Tom

I think this distinction may be bogus. Essentially you are using the word fitness both in the evolutionary sense and in the Jane Fonda sense. (So is Rage, but it almost seems like a waste to say so, since I already transmitted the message to her.)

I suppose you are asking about the direction that evolutionary pressures may be taking us, but I think it is worth keeping in mind that humans haven't suddenly become a social and technological species. These traits have been with us for some time and are surely, in some sense, part of our biology.

You just need to read Howard Bloom or anything on AI evolution to know that micro-organisms and microprocessors have us licked on the evolutionary front, one or the other will wipe us out, probably this century, maybe within our lifetimes - phex

I believe that the strength of your conviction is unjustified. While there is an exponential growth in things like processor speed, it is unclear how this translates into an evolutionary threat. Nanobots provide an interesting idea, and they do exist, but I reckon we are decades away (and centuries would not be inconceivable) from being able to produce something as sophisticated as an amoeba.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
11:37 / 13.10.03
Lurid: The point I was making (badly) was that the Posthumanism/evolution debate that started this thread is a moot point because all multi-cellular organisms are evolving too slowly to progress beyond the point where we'll be immune from extinction (by global pandemics, Terminator/Matrix style 'Rise of the Machines' or asteroid impacts etc.)
We, that is humans, the most evolved species on this planet in Darwinian terms, are going to be superceded very quickly or wiped out all together. To quote computer theorist Hugo de Garis:
"As Moore's Law for quantum computers states, the electronic performance of chips is doubling every years and the rate of advancement won't slow until the year 2020. Simplyfing the maths, the upshot is that inside a generation an (Artificial Intelligence) would have an intellect a thousand trillion trillion times greater than the most intelligent human." So even using twice our brain (8%, like, wow) isn't going to do a lot of good.
Humanist egalitarianism or social Darwinism isn't going to MATTER. Unless we can convince our AI sucessors to give us the Brain Chips that Rage' talks about to create a human-AI hybrid race (or upload us all into the Matrix) then humanity doesn't have a lot of time left.
Yeah, WE are 'decades away from producing something as sophisticated as an Amoeba', but THEY'RE not.

(Oh, and Rage, I read Mordant's post about the disability benefit thing, sorry for the Rabies gag.)
 
  

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