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The demonization of America?

 
  

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Regrettable Juvenilia
07:03 / 21.02.02
Slim: I'd be interested in what you make of this thread.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
07:05 / 21.02.02
Umm...Hague is no longer the leader of the opposi-oh, fuck it. Why are we even bothering?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
07:28 / 21.02.02
Because if we don't, who will? Stop grumping.

Slim, the US owed the UN about $512bn for some time. No other country in the world wold get away with that.

The Rapprochement with China was hardly the most stunningly difficult diplomatic coup ever, given that China, in its new economic revival, was desperate for markets and Most Favoured Nation.

I won't address Israel/Palestine in this thread. All I'll say is that if America is a great peacemaker in that arena, now would be the time to show it.

Yugoslavia? Pardon, but didn't Bush decide to pull out?

It's not 'America' per se which people get angry with - it's decisions like that, which seem arbitrary, cost-conscious, isolationist.

And then there's Kyoto and carbon dioxide. Which is a disgrace, though not unexpected.

As I said before, people want America to be a shining light. And America thinks it already is, and behaves with that God-given assurance. Sadly, there's a lot of work to be done.
 
 
Jackie Susann
08:06 / 21.02.02
It seems somewhat pointless to respond to Slim, since he's completely ignored my last two posts (suggesting a rather novel take on the word 'rebuttal'), but I am a sucker for this stuff. So, taking Al's tag with a resounding slap, I jump in to the ring with a steaming Bradshaw glare to tackle Slim's List...

- Rapprochement with China

China has long been one of the US's most favoured trading partners, despite its abysmal human rights record. The US secretly resumed trade with China a few weeks after the Tiannamen Square massacre, for example. In 93, the US violated trade bans imposed to penalise China for its involvement in nuclear missile proliferation. This was high tech equipment, not food aid or anything like that (incidentally, this was during the ongoing US-led sanctions that have killed thousands of children in Iraq, ostensibly to prevent Saddam Hussein from developing weapons of mass destruction). Also coincidentally, the Chinese Ministry of Labour reported that 11 000 workers had died in industrial accidents in the first eight months of that year - twice as many as the previous year.

If somebody could clarify what was good about the rapprochement with China, or what it involved, or when it was, I would be grateful because I genuinely don't know what you're talking about.

- Dayton Peace Accords

In Kosovo, the US thwarted Ibrahim Rugova's non-violent Kosovo Democratic League for 10 years. At the 1995 Dayton peace conference, for example, US negotiators betrayed the League's demand for autonomy in order to reach a deal with Milosevic. By weakening this moderate movement, the US helped give rise to the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), a violent, ultra-nationalist group demanding total secession from a multi-ethnic Yugoslavia. In the US, the KLA was classified as a "terrorist organization" as recently as February 1998. But by mid-year the US was arming, equipping and training these forces, whose tactics include: massacres of civilians; targeted assassinations of anti-secessionists, including Albanian Kosovars; forced conscription; heavy reliance on foreign mercenaries; extortion of money and property from local Albanians; and burning and looting the homes of political opponents.


- Bretton Woods and the development of the IMF, IBRD and ITO

The Bretton Woods agreements, basically, involved the partitioning of the world among the winners of WWII. The US, being in the strongest position, demanded the most. I think you're alluding to the Marshall Plan, which involved billions of dollars in US aid to rebuild Europe. Obviously, this was a good thing for the handful of nations it benefited, but it was also a strong tool of economic control; the US withheld aid, including food, from countries with strong, populist movements hostile to US economic interests. They also made extensive use of fascists and Nazis to control and terrorise those states.

The role of the IMF, consistently, provides loans to Third World countries on the condition that they cut back on social services - including essential social services like making sure people can feed themselves - and 'open' their economy to foreign investment. Frequently this involves turning the land most of the population lives on into cash crop farms for foreign export. People starve. The US supports this. Arguably, they had good intentions when they set it up - I think it's unlikely, but hey. It's still an absurd point to list in favour of the contention that the US has done a lot of good things.

- Urging peace talks between Isreal and Palestine (Alright, this one could perhaps be debated. However, just because the US backs the Isrealis does not mean it wants war. The US does make an effort for peace.)

The US actually consistently blocks moves towards peace, if those moves would in any way disadvantage Israel - by, for example, recognising a Palestinian right to statehood. Essentially, the entire rest of the world - bar the US and Israel - support UN 242, a resolution proposed by the US (among other states) in 67 to end the war. Essentially, it said that Israel should be left alone if it withdrew from the occupied territories. The US rhetorically continued to cleave to this principle until Clinton explicitly rejected it, but in practice they didn't give a shit; they effectively rejected it in 71, when Egypt seriously proposed to implement it. Since then, the US has continued to arm the Israel army, provide financial aid, etc., to consolidate the occupation. On many occasions, they have provided military aid specifically designed to target civilians, such as the provision of helicopter technology designed to make it easier to attack residential apartments (at the time of the beginning of the Al-Asqa intifada, when Israel was actively provoking Palestinians both symbolically - via Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount - and through out and out murder, killing about 18 Palestinians and injuring well over a hundred others in three days).

This is what the US calls 'the peace process'. It's a lot of things, but it's certainly not an example of anything good the US has done for world affairs. In fact, it is one of the key reasons the US is so widely and intensely hated in Arab countries.

Skipping the UN since I think it's covered in posts above...

- Now for the big one which I'm sure will be contested and detested- the spread of democracy and capitalism.

Offer a single example of the US making a substantive contribution to bringing democracy anywhere, and I will comment on it. I genuinely can't think of one. I'm probably wrong, I'd like to think I'm wrong, but nothing springs to mind.

Who's next?
 
 
Dao Jones
08:34 / 21.02.02
Now that's a rebuttal.

When Crunchy's on a role, I can't even begin to compete.

If it doesn't merit an acknowledgement, or a concession, this thread is pointless and we can all go home.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:34 / 21.02.02
I can't really add anything to Crunchy's post for now except a couple of relatively cheap shots, I'm afraid.

quote:Originally posted by Slim:
the US played dirty in the 80s.


As opposed to any other decade in the latter half of the 20th century?

But I think the most telling point Slim has made is this:

quote:God forbid if the US should do anything to maintain its power.

Because it seems to take as read the assumption that the amount of power the US currently has is fair, just, and in no way detrimental to the rest of the world (or that the rest of the world is not quite as important). Take that attitude as the basis for a foreign policy, and you have one of the major reasons for the so-called "demonization of America".

[ 21-02-2002: Message edited by: Flyboy ]
 
 
Ethan Hawke
12:07 / 21.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Dread Pirate Crunchy:
The US actually consistently blocks moves towards peace, if those moves would in any way disadvantage Israel - by, for example, recognising a Palestinian right to statehood. Essentially, the entire rest of the world - bar the US and Israel - support UN 242, a resolution proposed by the US (among other states) in 67 to end the war. Essentially, it said that Israel should be left alone if it withdrew from the occupied territories. The US rhetorically continued to cleave to this principle until Clinton explicitly rejected it, but in practice they didn't give a shit; they effectively rejected it in 71, when Egypt seriously proposed to implement it. Since then, the US has continued to arm the Israel army, provide financial aid, etc., to consolidate the occupation. On many occasions, they have provided military aid specifically designed to target civilians, such as the provision of helicopter technology designed to make it easier to attack residential apartments (at the time of the beginning of the Al-Asqa intifada, when Israel was actively provoking Palestinians both symbolically - via Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount - and through out and out murder, killing about 18 Palestinians and injuring well over a hundred others in three days).


To address a side issue here:

Didn't Bush and Powell recently explicitly say they recognize that the Palestinians have a right to a state? Of course, they're all but encouraging Sharon in his recent appalling actions, but I don't think that the US governemnt is opposed to a Palestinian state.

As far as the U.S. providing Israel with weapons "specifically designed to target civilians," I think that that's a deliberate mischaracterization of the conflict because (a)Palestine has no "regular" army that is attacking Israel. The attackers are "irregulars", or as the US would prefer, terrorists. They conceal themselves in residential areas, which is why (b) helicopter targeting systems such as those used in the "assasinations" carried out by Israel arguably reduce the targeting of civilians.

Should Israel be targeting ~anyone~ in the occupied territories? That's another question. I think some level of retaliation for martyrdom attacks is acceptable.

Also, to say that before the intifada "Israel" was actively provoking the Palestinians is also a mischaracterization. Sharon and his cohort's visit to the Temple Mount was explicitly forbade by the Israeli government, and was a cynical stunt by him to incite violence so that he could gain power. This was a homegrown attempt to derail the Clinton mediated peace process, which obviously worked.

Like most of the people here, I am against Israeli action in the occupied territories (and against the occupation altogether). "Settlements" are abhorrent to me, but I don't think that the US actively encourages such activity.

Recent events have obviously given Sharon a free hand to do whatever he wants, and the U.S. government's silence on these actions is unfortunate.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:27 / 21.02.02
quote:Because it seems to take as read the assumption that the amount of power the US currently has is fair, just, and in no way detrimental to the rest of the world (or that the rest of the world is not quite as important).That, of course, is the basis not just of US foreign policy, but almost all foreign policy, hence the term 'foreign'.

This notion of divisible entities functioning in an apparently consequence-free environment (i.e. save for the actions of other states) is what brings us the greenhouse effect, the damage to the oceans, the CBRN weapons (new acronym, go go gadget euphamisms). This is one of the ideas from 20th Century politics which absolutely has to go.

The problem is, it's very attractive, in idiot terms. It assumes that if there's a problem, it's because someone's making one (duck-squeezers, other countries, the lower classes, whatever). It makes for easy blame and ready re-election.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:41 / 21.02.02
True. What bothers me immensely is that, post Sept 11, Bush and Blair (amongst others, but primarily these two, and Blair most of all) have adopted a rhetoric that claims to have global interests at heart, but on closer examination is just a justification for pursuing the same old nationalist/imperial interests, now with a corporate twist...
 
 
Slim
16:00 / 21.02.02
quote:It seems somewhat pointless to respond to Slim, since he's completely ignored my last two posts (suggesting a rather novel take on the word 'rebuttal'),

In all honesty, I never saw your post. I must have accidently skipped over it. I'd apologize, except that I'm not sorry. As a student, I don't always have enough time to post everything I want to say or read all the threads I want to read. This is also why I won't be responding to all the comments on this thread. But since I like you so much, I'll resond to some of your comments

quote:If somebody could clarify what was good about the rapprochement with China, or what it involved, or when it was, I would be grateful because I genuinely don't know what you're talking about.

Considering that this occured in the midst of the Cold War and that China and the US had been on bad terms since the Korean War, I'd say that this was important. The fact that two of the world's most powerful countries, ones who also have opposite ideologies, were able to begin trade and talks in hopes for a better future is very important in a global sense.

As far as the article on the Dayton Peace Accords goes, consider me a skeptic on how accurate it is. What I do know for sure is that the Dayton Peace accords stopped a lot of the violence going on in the area.

quote: The role of the IMF, consistently, provides loans to Third World countries on the condition that they cut back on social services - including essential social services like making sure people can feed themselves - and 'open' their economy to foreign investment. Frequently this involves turning the land most of the population lives on into cash crop farms for foreign export. People starve. The US supports this. Arguably, they had good intentions when they set it up - I think it's unlikely, but hey. It's still an absurd point to list in favour of the contention that the US has done a lot of good things.

The IMF doesn't have to force nations to cut back on social services- they do it on their own. Any country, when faced with the decision, is going to screw over the poor because they can't fight back. Furthermore, the quality of life in these countries has gone up. While the rich countries do prosper, so do the poor ones. The IMF does need to be changed, but its basic function, that of a monetary fireman, does not. It was created with good intentions and I'm going to list it as a good thing.

Okay, so those are some of my responses to your comments. Now I'm going to add some statements of my own:

The US has to act like a hegemon. It is by doing this that world-wide economic stability is maintained. If the US runs rampant throughout the world, then why does it allow itself to have so many trade defecits with so many nations? Do you really think that is has to do this? Furthermore, the US has been kind to many nations, particularly its enemies. It helped rebuild Japan, Germany and Italy. Its very enemies during WWII. Just compare how the US and Russia treated Germany and you tell me which one is worse. The US also has to maintain its power because if not, this world will go to hell in a handbasket. The timeframe between the fall of a hegemon and the rise of another is always littered with war. Look what happened after Britain declined from power. We had WWI and WWII. How many major wars have been waged since the US became the hegemon? Zed.

Oh, and Haus- you're right, I completely forgot about how Hague is gone. Quite sorry. Still, the fact that he wasn't beaten with a sack of doorknobs distresses me.
 
 
Ganesh
18:28 / 21.02.02
[edited to remove needlessly anti-American (and probably therefore 'terrorist') comment]

[ 21-02-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
18:55 / 21.02.02
quote:The US has to act like a hegemon. It is by doing this that world-wide economic stability is maintained.Worldwide economic stability meaning crass environmental damage through unsustainable energy use and chemical pollution? Wildly unequal and therefore de-stabilising disparity of standards of living? The perpetuation of spiralling debt through a system of loans and aid which somehow leave poor countries with greater than ever debts, yet achieve little in the way of getting them up and running? And defaulting on debts to the UN?

That kind of economic stability is neither stable nor beneficial to the US in the long or even the medium term, and may turn out to be dangerous to the species, let alone the millions who are already dying because of it.

quote:If the US runs rampant throughout the world, then why does it allow itself to have so many trade defecits with so many nations? Do you really think that is has to do this?That's a natural part of trade. You make loans, you get interest. You keep your trading partners afloat, because otherwise the whole game falls apart.

quote:Furthermore, the US has been kind to many nations, particularly its enemies. It helped rebuild Japan, Germany and Italy. Its very enemies during WWII.And, immediately, its allies against the dread Communist USSR, without whom the policy of 'encirclement' was completely impossibly. Don't suggest that was altruistic.

quote:Just compare how the US and Russia treated Germany and you tell me which one is worse.Quite frankly, the USSR (not Russia) was in no fit state after the '39-'45 war to help anyone, even itself. And it had lost casualties beyond anything your country has ever lost. It had been invaded to the very core of its cultural and physical being. Pearl Harbour, the Twin Towers even, are pinpricks by comparison with what was inflicted on the USSR by the Nazis.

quote:The US also has to maintain its power because if not, this world will go to hell in a handbasket.Nice assertion. Now back it up.

quote:How many major wars have been waged since the US became the hegemon?What are you calling a major war and when did the US become the Hegemon on your eyes? But Bosnia, Rwanda, Somalia, Afghanistan...
 
 
Jackie Susann
09:31 / 22.02.02
I surrender to Slim, being unable to compete with arguments like

quote: As far as the article on the Dayton Peace Accords goes, consider me a skeptic on how accurate it is. What I do know for sure is that the Dayton Peace accords stopped a lot of the violence going on in the area.

Well, if you know. Also impressive was 'the IMF doesn't have to force countries to cut social services' as an argument in favour of the IMF (a little like defending terrorists by saying they didn't have to attack the WTC, isn't it?)

I do wanna respond to Todd, though. I'm not sure about what Bush etc. have said about a Palestinian right to statehood, but I imagine the US has rhetorically affirmed Palestinian statehood a number of times during their attempts to destroy the Palestinian state. Like I said, they were rhetorically committed to UN 242 (although that doesn't actually recognise Palestinian statehood) for decades of active attempts to undermine it. It's not what they say, but what they do that matters (or we'd have had peace decades ago).

Similarly, the Israeli government may have made public statements against Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount, but he took something like a thousand soldiers with him - surely this indicates some degree of government support? (Am not clear on this, please correct me if I'm wrong.)
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:31 / 22.02.02
The IMF may not force countries to cut back on social services, but GATT certainly does...
 
 
No star here laces
09:31 / 22.02.02
Minor points.

Keynes and the IMF
Keynes' position on the setting up of the IMF and world bank was that those institutions would be counter-productive if they charged interest on their loans as this would only serve to increase the gap between the rich and poor nations. The US government refused to allow this, so they were set up charging interest.

Guess what happened?

Imperialism and isolationist foreign policy
By definition, if your country is "the only superpower in the world" and it operates an isolationist foreign policy, it is oppressing less powerful countries.

One of the nicest things I ever heard about the US, and I don't know if it's true, is that the rich feel they have a duty to perform charitable acts because there is no government policy of wealth redistribution, so they have to make it a personal responsibility. Now clearly this feeling of duty can't extend to a significant enough charitable gesture to actually narrow the poverty gap, but it is a nice thought.

Unfortunately the US government does not appear to share these sentiments and doesn't believe that power and wealth brings responsibility.

Quality of life
This measure increases for a nation even if the only actual change is for the richest 2% of the country to get 50% richer while the rest starve. As crunchy says, this increase in 'quality of life' is really just one group of elites helping out another group of elites.

'Americans'
I think you would find that the 'haters' in the rest of the world are not as sweeping in their dislike of Americans as you might think. Most people have the utmost sympathy for the disgusting way the African-American population have been treated over the years, and the appalling institutional racism they suffer. If you want to look for an example of a government oppressing and victimising its own people, I might suggest you don't need to look much further than "profiling" or your nearest state penitentiary...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:31 / 22.02.02
quote:
posted 22-02-2002 10:51 AM    
             
Minor points.
Keynes and the IMF
Keynes' position on the setting up of the IMF and world bank was that those institutions would be counter-productive if they charged interest on their loans as this would only serve to increase the gap between the rich and poor nations. The US government refused to allow this, so they were set up charging interest.
Guess what happened?
Imperialism and isolationist foreign policy
By definition, if your country is "the only superpower in the world" and it operates an isolationist foreign policy, it is oppressing less powerful countries.
One of the nicest things I ever heard about the US, and I don't know if it's true, is that the rich feel they have a duty to perform charitable acts because there is no government policy of wealth redistribution, so they have to make it a personal responsibility. Now clearly this feeling of duty can't extend to a significant enough charitable gesture to actually narrow the poverty gap, but it is a nice thought.
Classic Protestant/Calvinist Work Ethic holdover, isn't it? Good works and so on. And if I recall, Ted Turner did just give an immense chunk of his personal fortune directly to the UN. Now, if the whole Fortune 500 did that, they could write off the US Government's debt to the UN...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:31 / 22.02.02
Nah. Late C18-early C19 philanthropic movement, generally attributed to an increasingly affluent and politically engaged middle class, for whom philanthropic acts were a signifier of 'virtue' (both civic and personal). See Henry Fielding's Foundling Hospital, Magdalen Hospitals and so on. This is, btw, private philanthropy as opposed to largesse dispensed by royal and noble patrons, and is part of the meltdown of the old 'Great Chain of Being'-style social constructs.

The idea that private philanthropy can *replace* state support had, I thought, been pretty much debunked - the problem being that, yes, it is a lovely idea in practice (but <i>terribly</i> Tory), but it places responsibility in the realms of personal and social morality - and in a social context where that morality is fluid it is easy to avoid that responsibility, to disclaim it or to abuse it.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:31 / 22.02.02
Um...sounds remarkably similar to what I said wearing another hat. I just like Max Weber, is all.

And I wasn't suggesting for an instant that private philanthropy be adopted as a policy, just that if they felt like it, the F500 could make the world less grumpy with the US over night, and not notice in terms of their own lifewstyle. Pretty much what Turner said, actually.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:31 / 22.02.02
But it really has nothing to do with either a Calvinist or a Protestant work ethic holdover... that's what I was trying to say. It's about affluence and sensibility, property and responsibility (I can't remember exactly what the connection is between the 'bourgeois' work-ethic and the 'good works' doctrine, but tbh I think that had a little more force on the continent anyway, especially with the Huguenots and in the United Provinces. Obviously the US was founded on non-conformism, so it might well have a great deal more influence over there - but we are talking about at least two centuries ago here and it's wise not to be too general).

Sorry if I came across as being overly tetchy or pedantic there - I was really addressing Lyra as much as you, Nick.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
09:31 / 22.02.02
Couple of questions.

The old cliche of damned if the do, damned if they don't? As the most powerful nation on earth what should their role be globally? Should they ever intervene? Is their any hard and fast rules for intervention that people would suggest? It's kind of been suggested that America should purposefully de-power. this doesn't strike me as a particularly realistic idea. I guess I'm asking waht part should America play in the world.

Most of the conversation seems to have been about the evils of government and industry. There's a defensiveness from some of the Americans about their "demonisation" (understandably), Ierne mentioned the responsibilty of the average guy in the street. I'm interested in the relationship between that and anti-American "racism". How responsible is the guy in the street and how good is his education in terms of what's going on. Do some of the opinions expressed here and the ones that are stereotypicly attributed to Americans, a result of poor/misinformation and propaganda from a industrial/governemnt controlled media?

Hope that made sense, good thread.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:40 / 22.02.02
Reid, why don't you start a new thread about that? Sort of 'what's appropriate action for a singular super-power'?

Kit-Cat, I know you were saying there's no relationship there, but I don't know where you get that certainty. My understanding is that Calvinism comes into Capitalism very early, as one of the defining features of the nascent notion of Capitalism, and may even be inseperable from it as a formative element.

Certainly in the US, where the WASP families make up one of the significant power groups, it seems to me it can't be ignored as an influence.

On the other hand I'm working from a misty memory of Weber's 'Protestant Work Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism', so I may be off-beam here.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:01 / 22.02.02
Yeah, Weber is an important formulation of the 'Calvinist Protestantism is a major formative factor in the emergence Capitalism' idea. I think it's a bit dodgy, though. I agree that religion is an important determining factor for some forms of behaviour, including consumption, cultural behaviour, social interaction, and so on, and may well have influenced people's work patterns (indeed I believe there is a body of work on France which bears Weber's thesis out).

BUT I think there are many many holes in the idea. One: can we really etxrapolate the idea of capitalism right back to the Reformation, and isn't that an imposition of C19 and C20 economic preoccupations onto a mercantile society; two: Calvinist Protestantism is certainly not the dominant religion in NW Europe at any point, though there may be a case that it is more predominant among mercantile classes than other social groups - and therefore perhaps it is a lot more complex than 'religion influenced work ethic' and more like 'trade and religion and business building and family combined to create a work ethic'; I personally think that the earliest point at which one can see 'capitalist' behaviour in terms of financial markets *really* taking off is in the 1690s in England, and *that* was because of a war...

But it is an important theory, you are quite right, and since America was founded by Non-conformist Protestants (Calvinists, Puritans, etc) and is also a nation which sets a great deal of store by its past, it is likely that the Calvinist work ethic does have a great deal more influence - and we are talking about the US, after all, not Europe...

The reason why I think that there's no real relationship between philanthropy as Lyra depicted it and the Calvinist work ethic is that, as far as I can tell, a work ethic doesn't *necessarily* include philanthropy as a public duty, whereas I think that what Lyra was proposing was private philanthropy as a public (and since it is the US, possibly religious) duty. As far as I can tell they emerged separately and in different historical periods under different conditions.

Edited because I can't string a sentence together, or spell, or indeed punctuate properly.

[ 22-02-2002: Message edited by: Kit-Cat Club ]
 
 
grant
17:38 / 22.02.02
Weren't the Dutch traders all Calvinists?

I know the forefathers of the Boers were, using the theology as their rationale for, basically, laying the foundations for apartheid.

Personally, I think the idea of the frontier has a lot more to do with capitalism than any religious ethic does.
 
 
Bill Posters
11:37 / 23.02.02
Haven't had time to read this thread but in the UK a vicar of all people is in trouble for inciting racial hatred against our American brethern, and I thought that was worth mentioning. That, I guess, is Christian charity for you, not to mention a clear example of the contemporary demonisation those overfed, arrogant, warmongering Yankie skkkum.

[ 23-02-2002: Message edited by: Bill Posters ]
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:26 / 25.02.02
[OT, sorry people]

quote:Originally posted by grant:
Weren't the Dutch traders all Calvinists?


No... I think some of them were Lutherans as well. Also the United Provinces acted as a sort of depot for the dispossessed, so you get lots of Huguenots and Sephardic Jews there as well. It's certainly true that the dominant clerics in the UP were the Calvinist predikants, but they certainly didn't represent everyone or anywhere near everyone. Moreover, a quick look at what the social policies of the predikants were like should tell you that they weren't interested in philanthropy (as we would understand it now).

Really dull, sorry...
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
08:45 / 25.02.02
Actually, Dutch history is a fascinating subject - have just finished reading Brilliant Orange and am feeling all evangelical and excited - but Nick is quite literally never going to admit to even the faintest possibility of factual eror, so to avoid a "But what about the Polder Democracies?" backlash I am starting a "disputations on Dutch history" thread in the Switch Board.

Meanwhile, as I understand it - the US government continues to refuse to give prisoners either the treatment stipulated in the Geneva convention for legal combatants or...er...the legal representation stipulated in law for "non-legal combatants". Members of other nations face trials in unwitnessed "military courts" without the standards of evidence or the presumption of innocence of a normal court, with the power to hand out sentences up to the death penalty without any accountability or right of appeal.

Excellent.

[ 25-02-2002: Message edited by: The Haus Red ]
 
 
Shortfatdyke
08:49 / 25.02.02
as a point of interest: one of the british prisoners in cuba has just sent a letter to his mother - on official 'prisoner of war' notepaper!
 
 
Lurid Archive
08:49 / 25.02.02
The posts above provide an excellent critique of US foreign policy and eloquently describe the reasons for the outrage people feel at US actions. Having said that, I have found that there can be a certain amount of anti-american feeling amongst politically aware left wingers.

For instance, after the September 11th incident, I found that while no one was prepared to condone the terrorist actions there did seem to be a certain amount of glee at this "appropriate punishment" of the US. No one actually said this directly, but people did seem very quick to provide reasons and justifications for anti US sentiment. None of these reasons seemed incorrect, but they did seem almost deliberately insensitive.

Of course this is anecdotal - though some of the press in the UK did reflect this attitude - so I may be completely off the mark here. Also, I may be misreading people's motives and perhaps justifiable outrage comes across as more malign than it is. Nevertheless I do think that I understand how americans, for example, might see anti US hatred in their country's critics.

This tends to be made worse by the fact that US media is rather one sided and so americans can be extremely unwilling to accept any facts that they are not used to - no offence to any americans out there.

I suppose that my point is that it can be all too easy to get carried away in these emotive issues, as I think some people are, and debate is better served by a reasoned argument. But then, that what most of the posts above have been like, so why am I bothering......
 
 
Cherry Bomb
12:17 / 25.02.02
I think there is a big difference between being "Anti-American" and being critical of American policies. As an American, I think the most "patriotic" (a word I am loathe to use but it is fitting) thing I can do is tö be critical of my government.

I really can't buy the "victimization of the U.S." bit. It's a bit like the plot of "Legally Blonde." It's kind of difficult for me to believe that rich, beautiful blondes have a hard time getting through life (though I would say maybe they have a hard time being taken seriously, and that of course is a whole different thread.)

You have to remember that when something happens in say, Tunisia, it probably will not affect the average American's life in a noticeable way. But if something happens in America it has the potential to affect the entire world. So we DO have a responsibility here.

Most American policy seems horribly short-sighted, arrogant and selfish to me, and unfortunately I am getting a little pressed for time so I can't get into too much detail to make my point. It would be far more beneficial, long-term, if we would make global policy decisions with an eye on the world, and not ONLY the U.S. and its interests.

Plus, also remember that there are very few countries who can escape the American corporate world entirely, if any. Virtually every country in the world has a McDonald's. I will never forget watching the footage of Palestinians dancing on September 11 (real or not) and being struck by the fact that one of the guys was wearing a Chicago Bulls t-shirt. Now, that has more to do with clothes being recycled and sent overseas (another long story) but the point is America is often in the face of other nations whether they want it to be or not, and that should be kept in mind.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:04 / 25.02.02
quote:Nick is quite literally never going to admit to even the faintest possibility of factual erorExcuse me, what the fuck? Get down offa that horse, boy, yoah head's a danger to aircraft...

Kit-Cat...before we were so sweetly interrupted...points accepted with thanks. Wasn't trying to tie myself to Lyra so tightly (hoo hah...). Would love to have an irl chat in a pub at some point.

Lurid: quote:I have found that there can be a certain amount of anti-american feeling amongst politically aware left wingers.Oh, yeah. There's plenty of plain old anti-Americanism knocking about. Trouble is that it's very hard to think straight about a country which behaves the way the US does from time to time.

Because of the scale of September 11th, many Americans seem to dismiss it, but for many years, the IRA was principally funded from donations in the States, and it was quite socially acceptable. It was a hell of a thing to visit Boston, having lived in the UK in a state of low-level siege for years, and get told the IRA was a fine upstanding outfit fighting the oppressive Brits.

And then suddenly there was this grotesque, appalling thing on the US mainland, and suddenly Boston understood, and the IRA was out on its arse over night.

Can you not see where that feeling comes from, which says "Yes, you bastards, now you get it, you see why we were screaming? Because it's bloody hideous feeling that going shopping is a high-risk enterprise."

The rest of the world watched as America learned it was not untouchable. It was hideous. I was on the phone to my family and friends in New York, praying (I don't believe in God) and begging. I had the tv on all day for the rest of the week and I wept a river. But it was also like seeing your perfect friend fall over his shoes. He's one of us, after all. He knows he's human, too.
 
 
No star here laces
13:54 / 25.02.02
Actually, can we talk about that vicar?

He's accused of inciting racial hatred because:

quote:
The vicar’s complaints against the US involved its
response to September 11. He criticised conditions
in which Taleban prisoners were kept in Guantanamo
Bay, capitalism generally, and Christian
fundamentalism in the US. He wrote of Americans:
“They have not been fighting for civilisation but for
empire, power and the American way of life: luxury in
a world of poverty.”


Now, 'scuse me if I'm being stupid, but if the law is going to presume that those actions and values that he is criticising are innately American, where does that leave someone who disagrees with them?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:02 / 25.02.02
Yes, I thought it was ludicrous... it's a bizarre attempt to equate 'race' with 'political stance of a nation'. You can't even really equate 'race' with 'nation'.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:33 / 25.02.02
About that vicar - I dont think that there is anything particularly sinister here. Some people are clearly on edge after September 11th and are paranoid as fuck about terrorists. This is clumsy, stupid and not the way that censorship and control happen. I may be wrong, but I think that this sort of thing will blow over in a year or so and we'll get back to business as usual. The best way to deal with the vicar - from the authorities point of view - is to ignore him and deny him the oppurtunity to reach a mass audience.

For instance, I did notice that for a while the US seemed to be concerned that it's "war" on terrorism shouldn't be completely hypocritical. So the IRA had a hard time and Sharon in Israel was getting some bad press and a lot of political pressure from "hands off" GWB.

Now Im not sure about the long term prospects of the IRA (tricky, since the political solution is moving) but Israel is again firmly supported by the US who would never contemplate the idea that assasinations and bombing of civilians is unacceptable. (Actually, that is consistent...)

What Im trying to say is that while the US may have come to its sense temporarily, this is at best a short term prospect. They dont "get it" and they never will while they are the only superpower with a vested interest in the status quo.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:37 / 25.02.02
Weird. I thought you were from the US. Must have got my wires crossed.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:21 / 25.02.02
Nah - I'm just keen not to be anti-american for its own sake and I'm uncomfortable when friends are.
 
  

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