Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.

Underground > Switchboard >

Scotland bans fox hunting

Page: 1(2)

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

06:56 / 16.02.02

Amen to that. I don't like the idea of fishing, shooting, or even pulling the tails of cats for fun either. But maybe that's just me. I don't even kill spiders (but that's more out of fear of going anywhere near the fuckers- oh yes, don't get me wrong, I hate them with a passion) if I can help it.
It's not so much what we do to other species- it's what our actions say about us as a species.
And yes, sfd- I also hope this is a "first step" towards treating animals better. (But I'm not holding my breath... the natural human urge towards bastardry is not easily quelled.)

08:38 / 16.02.02

quote:IS IT ACCEPTABLE TO GAIN PLEASURE FROM THE DEATH AND PAIN OF ANIMALS.

That is the key question, and it spills over into areas which affect much more people. Essentially eating meat is gaining pleasure from the death of an animal. We don't have to eat meat. Many people get by fine without it. So if we do decide to eat meat because we enjoy it then we are benefitting from the unnecessary death of an animal. Add in the fact that the a lot of meat is produced through intensive factory farming which could be classified as cruel and we realise we are pleasuring from the pain of an animal.
Ok, sure, the death and pain is hidden away from us. It isn't as in your face as the death and pain of a hunt, but isn't it just the same?
So how many people who support a ban on fox hunting support a ban on meat eating or intensive farming practices. Or if we conceal the pain and death, bury it under cellophane, does that make it ok?

[ 16-02-2002: Message edited by: Buk ]

08:38 / 16.02.02

I think Tom has made some valid points, though I think there is some evidence that certain animals may kill for what we would interpret as 'pleasure' (Killer Whales with seals, Chimpazees with smaller monkeys). I don't really know enough to qualify that, but would it then be acceptable for us to do it? Is there a basic natural order and heirarchy that justifies our violence because we share the code?

Personally, I think that I do draw a pragmatic line through the animal kingdom. I certainly don't hold a spider at the same level as say a lion. I think this is due to the level of 'consciousness' of the creature concerned (or perhaps that should be closeness to a human perspective of consciousness).

I have been fishing before and have enjoyed it. It is something that I have had to reconcile with myself.

Does a fish lack a significant level of consciousness?: It's ok to eat fish 'cos they don't have any feelings. Are they not similar to insects, in that they are organic robots, if you like? Perhaps this is an arrogant standpoint, but everybody classifies 'levels' of creatures: For example, SFD has killed spiders, but I'm sure she wouldn't dream of killing a cat (would she? WOULD SHE?). It seems as though its a difference of where the line is drawn.

[ 16-02-2002: Message edited by: Fra Dolcino ]

08:38 / 16.02.02

I remember reading somewhere that its all to do with size, most people think nothing of standing an a spider because its small...would you be so willing to will a spider that was the same size as a cat?

08:38 / 16.02.02

I would be equally willing, since Spiders are evil, but would be quaking in terror and/or shitting myself, so probably wouldn't be brave enough to do it.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

08:38 / 16.02.02

The eating animals thing (and I'm a vegetarian, though not a vegan, and I do wear leather if it's second-hand- as Jello Biafra said "Where do you draw the line- I'm not telling you, I'm asking you")- some people DO feel it is necessary, not just that they prefer the taste of meat to that of tofu or whatever. (Believe me, I've had these arguments- "Ever seen a healthy vegetarian?" "Ummm... excuse me, but I'm looking at an enormous meat-eater with a heart condition...".)
Yes, it is taking pleasure in the CONSEQUENCES of the death of an animal. Which I also oppose.
But to take pleasure in the actual PROCESS... In the same way, even though I'm opposed to the death penalty, if my family had all been killed by some guy, I would possibly take pleasure in knowing they were dead. (Let's face it, we've all seen the photos of the Nazis executed after Nuremberg and said "fuck yes".) But to actually enjoy watching the pain and death of a living being for no other reason than the enjoyment in doing so? Sorry. That is just alien to my nature.
(And yes, I went fishing when I was a kid. I was so proud of the fish I caught with my little bucket on a piece of string and some bait. But it wouldn't die, and I was told I should keep it as a souvenir to show my parents. The other kid I went with recommended stabbing it with a penknife, which I did. Repeatedly. It wouldn't die, just flopped about a lot. I cut its head off, which took a LONG time with a crappy penknife, and still find the memory incredibly disturbing and will regret it for ever.)

08:38 / 16.02.02

Yeah, I'd never really though about it like that that Stoatie, that is a good point. We do have to make a distinction been pleasure in the consequence and in the process. However wherever the pleasure is derived it amounts to the same thing for the animal.

18:55 / 16.02.02

The thing is, I get much much more angry about battery farming and a variety of other systemic abuses of animal welfare than the very occasional poor little fox being gored to death by beagles, sad though that may be.

But two wrongs don't make a right and whenever I see Clarissa-Dickson-Wright-More-Surnames-Than-Oiks-Like-You waving her banner I want to train ninja foxes to wreak vulpine vengeance upon her in best, brutal, beagley manner.

These guys are selling a myth that everybody in the countryside is a cap-doffing idiot or a bloodthirsty squire and they all depend upon and support this one intermittent activity.

I lived on a farm in rural Lincolnshire when I was a kid with some lovely gentle farming people. They hated having the fox-hunting toffs gallumphing through their fields and didn't participate. But any of the extended family on the farm would happily have shot a fox, cleanly and with some concern for its welfare, out of greater concern for the welfare of the poultry.

I'm with Oscar W, who called it
quote: The unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable .

Page: 1(2)