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Scotland bans fox hunting

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17:00 / 13.02.02

Link here...

So is this a restriction of personal freedoms or a long-needed piece of legislation?

Where do you stand on hunting?

I'm of the mind this is a good thing, but I am a wet wooly liberal. Anyone here have any opinions on it?

pointless and uncalled for

17:03 / 13.02.02

Fox hunting has no practical application in the "Fox Hunt" format.

In addition to that it is an inhumane practice that negatively affects an indigenous population.

I'm categorically against it and feel that baning it is a good thing.

17:11 / 13.02.02

Agreed. Anyone who needs to hunt something for fun ought to be hunted. Just so they know how it feels.

Zoom.

17:11 / 13.02.02

As well as the 'cruelty to animals' angle, it's one of those 'flashpoints' which brings home the lifestyle gulf separating the 'haves' and 'have-nots' - and reminding all and sundry that British society is anything but classless. Then there's the wellspring of city vs country resentment...

In many ways, fox-hunting's societal importance seems to reside in its resonance as a metaphor, rather than anything else.

I'm glad it's been banned and I'm happy that, as with Section 18, Scotland's done it first.

[ 13-02-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]

pointless and uncalled for

17:14 / 13.02.02

Section 18? One answer please to avoid undue thread rot.

Regrettable Juvenilia

17:15 / 13.02.02

Section 18 in a nutshell: clause outlawing the "promotion of homosexuality" in schools.

17:19 / 13.02.02

clause 28, non? thought section 18 was mental health legislation...

[rotting own thread after wondering whether or not to bother with it, too]

17:21 / 13.02.02

Heheh. Yeah, Section 18's the six-month detention part of the Scottish Mental Health Act. D'oh!

04:17 / 14.02.02

I think fox hunting sounds very cruel and it is not something I would do myself but I can't see how the Scottish Parliament can reasonably ban it on its own.
The thinking behind the ban seems to go like this - fox hunting is cruel and only a small section of the population are involved in it therefore we should ban it.
First part fair enough, the second part is where things get difficult. We can ban something but only if it doesn't affect the majority. It seems like a piece of legislation which imposes constraints on a minority without applying those same principles to the majority.
Yes, fox hunting could be banned but only as part of legislation which addresses animal cruelty at all levels. So I suppose I don't support the foxhunting ban right now. Parcel it up with a ban on factory farming and other practices and we can start to discuss it on its merits.

05:41 / 14.02.02

buk - i understand your theory, but i'm really happy with the ban - scotland seems to have the edge on england in a lot of things (clause 28, nursing care for the elderly and now this). yeah, there are other extremely cruel practises against animals that need to be addressed, and i'd like to see this as one step in a bigger campaign.

the class issue is strong here. i thought dog and cock fighting - rather more working class 'sports' - were banned years ago, and the reason fox hunting has remained legal for so long is because it is an upper class pastime and supporters and politicians (of all governments) no doubt went to school together....

06:17 / 14.02.02

Isn't there a real double standard here? Ban fox hunting, dog fights, etc, things which are only ever going to appeal to a minority, but leave untouched practices like factory farming which appeal to the majority by producing cheap food.
It is nice to be smug and vote for a ban on something that is unlikely to affect us, anyone we know, job opportunities, the economy, etc. Fair enough but you have to be prepared to extend that concept of fairness and cruelty to everything else. Imagine the effects of a ban on factory farming in Scotland. Do you think that would receive a yes vote? I'm really not sure that this is "a first step".

14:49 / 14.02.02

Go Scotland

It's not so much a double standard but two points within a grey area. Foxhunting is a little different to battery farming (tho that deserves legislation too.) Pro-hunt groups have long argued for hunting's social usefulness- they claim foxes are vermin, the hunt creates jobs, the hounds and horses need their excercise, etc. Against that, the anti-hunt lobby claims that it's basically a social ceremony enshrining cruelty to animals, transmitting and perpetuating the techniques of said cruelty. In Scotland, the hunters have lost the argument.

I think a ban on such activity is a landmark, because it's hard to resolve the wider animal rights issues that Buk brings up within a society that condones the celebration of such violence. While we were arguing about fox-hunting, there was no way to get much of a toehold in the broader issues of animal rights in food production.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

15:15 / 14.02.02

It is also worth observing that there is currently a five star animal home for rejected pets. It's considerably more luxurious than any number of hostels for humans. I believe many of the rooms include televisions, which is odd because I was under the impression that cats and dogs can't see tv images as we do.

We Brits are a bit funny about animals.

Possibly dealing with bloodsports will clear the way for us to acknowledge that we're also capable of elevating doggies and kitties and Bozo the Wondertortoise above our less fortunate human contemporaries...a rather poor performance.

02:03 / 15.02.02

Historically fox huntings an excuse to trample the peasants. . the hunt is allowed by law to mow down scrubbers. Well done Scotland! hurrah! The fact is your personal freedoms are regulated by laws. This one suggests a core change in the social order, which i recons probably for the best. Good riddance to Lords trampoling my humble vegetable patch. The can take up skateboarding in an over crowded city like me, the over privilaged toss pots. I hope England follows suit, but I doubt it will. . we'll probably be stuck with these crusty old molusks for ever. Loads a Love x x x

02:12 / 15.02.02

I hate fox hunting. Go Scotland!

04:26 / 15.02.02

I hate camembert. Ban smelly cheese now! After all no one I know likes it, don't see why people go eating that stuff anyway. Reeks of cabbage. I blame the French.

Don't ban cheese though. I quite like cheddar and my Friend Bob works in a Red Leicester factory. It is an important industry.

07:56 / 15.02.02

I don't think that's a valid comparison. No one here is saying that factory farming and so on are good/not inhumane. See Flame On's point:

quote: I think a ban on such activity is a landmark, because it's hard to resolve the wider animal rights issues that Buk brings up within a society that condones the celebration of such violence. While we were arguing about fox-hunting, there was no way to get much of a toehold in the broader issues of animal rights in food production.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

08:35 / 15.02.02

I'm totally against fox hunting (and a friend of mine died while sabbing a few years back, and I'll bet he's wherever he ended up right now grinning like a motherfucker). I'm also opposed to factory farming, and indeed the eating of meat.
However, what really grates about fox hunting, above and beyond the actual cruelties inflicted, is that they are inflicted FOR FUN. And I find THAT really upsetting. IF a fox population really needs to be controlled, then I'd rather it was done as a matter of necessity rather than as a sport. (let's face it, bug exterminators may take pride in their work, but they don't make it a day out for all the family.)
And as regards the other argument the fuckers always come out with, about people losing their livelihoods and what have you... a) didn't hear 'em complaining too much about the miners, and b) I imagine once upon a time there were some pretty fucked off witchfinders.
So... YAY SCOTLAND!!! Here's hoping we join ya soon.

[ 15-02-2002: Message edited by: Moominstoat ]

Regrettable Juvenilia

08:39 / 15.02.02

I think shortfatdyke makes a really important point here, namely that the fact that fox hunting has remained legal whilst dog and cock fighting (and as I understand it, cruelty to animals for fun in general) has been criminalised, points to the fact that this is all about class and privilege.

However, the devil's advocate in me is tempted to argue that the solution to this is to legalise cock fighting, dog fighting, perhaps even bear baiting...

08:39 / 15.02.02

The really important point here is that the fact that you don't like something is not a reason to ban it.
If there is a good reason to ban something then fair enough but that reasoning has to be applied to everything equally. That just isn't the case in the Scottish Parliament. It just seems that the MSPs congratulating themselves on how righteous they are, when all they have done is focus on an easy and obvious target.
The real test would be to apply the same principles of what is and isn't cruel to the whole range of activities involving animals. That is not going to happen. Does anybody really believe that this is a first step? Wanna explain how exactly?

08:39 / 15.02.02

buk - sorry i wasn't very clear in my post. i meant ideally i would like to see this as a first step in the wider issue of Not Treating Animals Like Shit.

and i'm all for restricting the 'freedom' to be cruel.

10:12 / 15.02.02

And as many Comedians have pointed out Bear/badger baiting and rat worring could be real fun if the baiting was purely verbal

eg
Call yourself a badger? look more like a cat with a some paint on its back to me!

Oi Mrs Rat, are you sure you haven't left the gas on at home?

10:16 / 15.02.02

Did you see the "Scottish" hunters on TV they made a good point about policing this, they said that this decision isn't going stop anyone - Scotland isn't the biggest place in the world but alot of the places they do carry out these hunts are in remote areas miles from anyone...they also said they wouldn't stop if they were chasing a fox and it crossed the border into Scotland...

quote:let's face it, bug exterminators may take pride in their work, but they don't make it a day out for all the family.)

Excellent

Just got a mental picture of the family getting dressed up in their nice red coats to do a bit of Sunday Roach huntin..

10:45 / 15.02.02

Talking of Roaches, anyone have any thoughts of how this legislation correlates with fishing and shooting (sorry, bad pun), both big business in Scotland (and most of the rest of the UK, for that matter)? Will those areas be next?

11:03 / 15.02.02

The fishing and shooting is a touchy subject and I'd rather wait until I see what other people think before replying .....

12:17 / 15.02.02

Go on Bear! Put your head over the parapet.....

[ 15-02-2002: Message edited by: Fra Dolcino ]

pointless and uncalled for

12:22 / 15.02.02

Fishing and game hunting are different though, it's done for food and you generally don't tend to chase the animal over miles of countryside.

I have it on good authority that you don't want to eat fox.

13:21 / 15.02.02

quote:Originally posted by Fra Dolcino:
Go on Bear! Put your head over the parapet.....

Hey, quite the Bear-baiting, Dolcino!

13:34 / 15.02.02

quote:Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:

Hey, quite the Bear-baiting, Dolcino!

Hah! Now watch him dance!

I don't know about your point Wisdom. It may not really be the right thread for this, but most fishing is for sport and sport alone (who'd eat anything caught in UK rivers!). Shooting, on the other hand is for food, but raises the 'them and us' class issues that Ganesh mentioned (and I've seen Pheasants 'beaten' out of cover for a couple of miles for people who are bad shots!).

[ 15-02-2002: Message edited by: Fra Dolcino ]

pointless and uncalled for

13:39 / 15.02.02

Ok, I admit that it's mainly sports fishing.

The game hunting isn't a matter of us and them in the same manner as fox hunting is. For one you don't have to wear ridiculous clothes and be cliquey. A pheasant shoot is reasonably accessible to all and certainly here in Canada so is a deer hunt.

Unless there is some other element that I'm missing.

13:40 / 15.02.02

That is an excellent point, Bear. If you ban fox hunting couldn't you logically ban fishing as well. Or does a sport have to meet a certain cruelty quotient before it is considered? "It's ok to fish, cos they don't have any feelings". But of course fishing is much more popular than fox hunting so it would be difficult to apply the same rules.
How do those who support a ban on fox hunting feel about fishing?

[ 15-02-2002: Message edited by: Buk ]

pointless and uncalled for

13:43 / 15.02.02

But include the element of free will. A fish doesn't have to bite on the baited hook. A fox does have to run from a large pack of baying hounds.

Still, I don't see any need for sports fishing.

15:41 / 15.02.02

i think fishing's pretty disgusting too, actually. biting on a hook that pierces the roof of the mouth, being ripped out of the water and suffocating for while before having your head bashed or being thrown back in...... don't tell me the average fish enjoys this kind of treatment.

bascially, my principle is that if you don't have to kill/hurt an animal to survive, then don't. that's not something i have always been able to stick to myself, having killed spiders in the past, but it's my ideal.

pointless and uncalled for

15:43 / 15.02.02

My rule is that you shouldn't eat meat unless you've demonstrated that you're willing to go out and do the job yourself.

The reason I'm not a vegetarian is that I've been there and done that.

15:54 / 15.02.02

The issue with fox-hunting for me cuts to the core of our relationship with animals and our position on animal rights. It's an activity which has (very) limited usefulness in pest control, so it's not necessary as such. It's performed for recreation, and it is essentially not a pleasant way to die for a fox. However this is not an issue where we debate whether the fox must die or not, because they are killed in other 'more humane' ways.

Essentially we have a point with fox-hunting which cuts right down to the issue of IS IT ACCEPTABLE TO GAIN PLEASURE FROM THE DEATH AND PAIN OF ANIMALS.

Now - often the same people who don't have a problem with hunting foxes would have a problem with abuse of pets - particularly dogs. But one is a pest, the other isn't. Country life is very clear on these distinctions - animals are broken down into types dependant upon utility and pragmatism. People who grew up in cities tend to over-sentimentalise animals or fear them.

My personal belief system works roughly like this. There is no high moral reason why killing something is wrong - it cannot be a moral absolute. Animals kill animals for food, we kill animals for food and clothing and side-products. But there is a matter of taste at this stage - what does it say about us as human beings that we have no consideration for the way other creatures live? Enjoying the pain of other creatures is dehumanising to US just as much as it is to the creatures that are tortured. Animals have no more a right to life than any of us do - no stray meterorite, disease or Elephant would consider these rights before summarily killing us.

But in a circumstance where we have the choice about how we act - surely it seems to be the best and most noble thing to do to act in a way that minimises suffering, maximises pleasure and only kills in circumstances where it is necessary - and always in such a way that we recognise that it is an UNPLEASANT part of existence rather than a joy?

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