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Withnail & I

 
  

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The Natural Way
13:13 / 14.08.03
Having recently dug it out of my now-dwindling-in-the-face-of-new-and-special-DVDs videos and, kinda in response to hana bi's assertion that "it's a bit shit", I've decided its time this film enjoyed a thread of its own (can you believe it doesn't have one already?).

Was discussing with Boboss the wonderful, visual feel of the film. Everything's brown and dank and sopping wet. The whole thing feels soggy and on its last legs: from Withnail's tatty suit to the sepia coloured flat to Monty's leaking, creaking cottage. I love the way the mise-en-scene and colour scheme underline the major themes: decay, the rise and rise of middle England, death...errr.....drug come-downs.....

There's such a sadness to the film. Beneath all the jokes it's not funny at all. But, still, the jokes are excellent and unaccompanied by any I-am-a-joke-ta-da! fanfare. The brief and entirely missable nods to oafish cats, Presuming Eds and Jeff Wodes are absolutely wonderful. Inventiveness seeping out of every pore. But, because very little's going on visually (apart from a slow rotting), the film demands the viewer pay a great deal of attention to the dialogue. I often find that, when people say they didn't enjoy the film it was because they watched it in circumstances unconducive to total immersion. Withnail and I really demands the audience LISTENS and pays attention. A couple of times now I've rewatched it with peeps who said they hated it first time round, but, on second viewing, found they really got into it.

What a rubbish post. Hey-ho - hopefully someone else will having something more interesting to say about this'n.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:33 / 14.08.03
Entropy.

Entropy, entropy, entropy.

England is crumbling into the sea.

More specifically, I think what I really get from the film these days is the terrifying spectre of what we might call Thatcherism for want of a better word. Call it Blairism now if you like. An ideology that basically says there is no place in the kind of England we want for weirdo misfits like Withnail or Monty or Marwood-pre-haircut. They are not useful. They do not contribute to society. The question of whether the idealised arcadia that Monty believes existed back in his punting days, and Danny believes that the 60s were/could've/should've been, ever existed is pretty moot. What's certain is that the world of Thatcher and Blair is bearing down on scum like this lot, and it wants them to get a job and a haircut and GETINTHEBACKOFTHEVAN.

And you can basically either sulk and fret, or get drunk and have a few laughs until it all becomes too much and you crack and end up reciting Shakespeare to the lions.

That's the gloomy way of looking at it. The fun way is just to recite all the best lines. Christ, let's do that, it's all far too depressing otherwise.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:09 / 14.08.03
Yes, absolutely, there is the sense that all the characters are anchronisms - "last islands of beauty" and all that - as though their time has been and gone. Only Marwood has the ability to adapt and survive. But he's not codified as a hippy bum or an upper class twit. He's the middle classes to a T.
 
 
The Knights Templar Boogie Machine
14:58 / 14.08.03
If it was'nt all bleak enough, Robinson originally had withnail returning to the flat after his painful gut wrenching soliloquy and blowing his brains out with a shotgun!...
I think he must have realised just how moving that scene by the railings at the end really was...
 
 
The Natural Way
15:09 / 14.08.03
Yeah, I always thought the original ending was overkill. The speech has more...err...pathos left on its own.
 
 
rizla mission
17:22 / 14.08.03
Pig and Fly's observations are basically same ones myself and a friend had when we discussed Withnail & I recently..

It's just such a wonderfully rich and subtle film - it's a shame how a lot of people just dismiss it as a stoned student chucklefest .. which it undoubtedly *IS*, in the most glorious way, but as this thread hopefully demonstrates, there's a lot more to it's appeal than that..
 
 
Ganesh
17:29 / 14.08.03
I, of course, find the presence of Richard E Twatting Grant an obstacle to even beginning to discuss this sensibly...
 
 
Linus Dunce
18:01 / 14.08.03
But Ganesh, he plays a twat.

"There comes a time in a young man's life when he realises, 'I will never play the Dane.'"
 
 
Ganesh
20:30 / 14.08.03
He plays himself...
 
 
Strange Machine Vs The Virus with Shoes
20:47 / 14.08.03
I saw this film without knowing anything about Richard E Grant and I think his performance is spectacular. I have managed to disassociate his post Withnail twatishness, from the performance in this film. Drinking lighter fluid, ice in the cider and the Lake District teashop scene are highly amusing. The Argos adverts and everything else he has been in are not. But his performance as Withnail is superb. I think that he may have tried to distance himself from the Withnail character in his career, because it was so evocative.
 
 
Spaniel
21:16 / 14.08.03
You're really out of the discussion then, Nelly. Whilst the script really is fab, it's Dick Grant's performance that elevates the whole grimy show from good to memorably affecting.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
23:10 / 14.08.03
Anyone else get a sudden Withnail-is-in-love-with-Marwood smack in the face on that last scene, having been totally blind to the homoerotic implications for the rest of the film? That Hamlet scene was what clicked it for me.

It's a very nostalgic, schadenfreude kind of film - miserable, romantic, mournful, self-hating, arrogant, despairing, bonkers - no wonder the English love it so much, it's full of all the shit buried bone-deep in our national psyche. if I could write a novel as good as this film I'd retire on my massive earnings quite fulfilled.

Ah, Withnail!
 
 
Ria
23:42 / 14.08.03
Withnail seemed very gay (or queterosexual) to me. until late in the film I wondered about their exact relationship. BTW where did you all get the name Marwood?

hey, though, McGann recorded an audience commentary for WITHNAIL but not his DOCTOR WHO t.v. movie. I feel slighted.
 
 
Ria
23:44 / 14.08.03
Richard E. Grant's diary book of that period has a poignant part related to the film. I won't give it away.
 
 
The Natural Way
09:19 / 15.08.03
I think slashing Marwood and Withnail's relationship is unnecessary and, well, wrong. I think it's far more powerful and affecting to view Marwood as Withnail's only real friend - only human contact - in a world that quite clearly has no use for him whatsoever. The character is a hugely lonely, frustrated alcoholic and, with Marwood leaving, really has NOTHING. Nobody to ground or connect him - no-one to share the bloody bath with. He's a failure and he's on his own.

I think the addition of love (in the romantic/sexual sense) is just tooo pat, toooo easy. Uh-uh. No.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:09 / 15.08.03
Ria - Marwood is the name given for 'I' in the screenplay.

I love it, but I'm not sure if I actually want to watch it again because I have seen it so many times. Agree with pretty much everything that Fly has said, and also with Runce that there's no need for Withnail to be in love with Marwood (though obviously it's a subtext, esp with all the shenanigans about the beds in the cottage with Monty). I think there's a lot more in that last scene than disappointed love too.
 
 
rizla mission
10:11 / 15.08.03
Richard E. Grant's diary book of that period has a poignant part related to the film. I won't give it away.

Richard E. Grant's diary has been published??

TO THE BOOKSHOP!

Pig's analysis continues to be spot-on, btw.
 
 
Spaniel
12:15 / 15.08.03
Marwood:
Eccentric? He's insane. Not only that he's a raving homosexual.


Marwood's horror at Monty's gayness suggests that he is in fact not queer.

Although agree about the subtext thing.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:54 / 15.08.03
Re: the question of Withnail's feelings for Marwood - my take on that is that this is a film obsessed with the blurred boundary between homosocial relationships and... something more. I mean, why is Marwood so fucking terrified of Monty, right from the start? Okay, so Marwood is terrified of almost everybody and everthing, but even so... I don't think this is a guy who's very secure in his own sexuality. This works utterly brilliantly to comic effect because the only way he can find to respond to Monty is this bizarre fixed grin and polite deferral which always comes across as flirting... It's painful to watch but painful-funny up until the point where Monty actually leaves. You know, the film has been encouraging us to laugh at this appalling enormous middle-aged gay man in semi-drag saying "I intend to have you even if it must be burglary!", and all of a sudden he's gone, and the film is heading inexorably towards a downbeat ending from that moment on. Monty is incredibly alone at the end of the film (I know his previous liasions with younger men are implied, and maybe he'll have them again, but c'mon, that letter he writes them is so tragic, he's so desperate for real love or even companionship). Y'know, in a way Monty's fate sort of foreshadows Withnail's, only the latter doesn't have any of the material comforts, making him doubly fucked.

Also note that there are virtually no women in this film, nor do Withnail or Marwood ever express any interest in them (Marwood says he's not a homosexual, but he doesn't seem to be much of a heterosexual either - these are people whom sex has somehow passed by). And it's so grimly ironic that W&I pretend to be a couple and Monty envies them this togetherness, and then they 'split up' and you realise the extent to which they *were* a couple, albeit a platonic one...

Which is not to say that Withnail definitely has romantic or sexual feelings for Marwood. But he loves him. They love each other, in fact. That's where the emotional kick comes from.

God, the bit that always gets me is when they're in the park, in the rain, and Marwood asks Withnail not to walk him any further to the station, and Withnail's like "I want to", and just the way Paul McGann says:

"Please don't. I really don't want you to."

And you know it's because he can't take the goodbyes. Gah. And then, oh God, "I shall miss you..."

I'm usually drunk enough to get seriously watery-eyed and lumpy-throated at that point. Pass the hanky. *sob*
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
13:48 / 15.08.03
Richard E. Grant's diary has been published??
With Nails it's called - I think there's a second volume, too. Hell, Tom Waits is in it. Where you been?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
13:59 / 19.08.03
these are people whom sex has somehow passed by

Think this is spot on. These are people who much of what is joyous, energetic, engaged in life has passed by, and sex goes along with this...

There's something curiously innocent/pre-adult to the characters in W&I, reminds me slightly of things like Dennis Cooper, William Burroughs, albeit in a very Albion setting... Drugs and sadness, apartness have replaced/done away with sexual urge, connection...

Am vividly reminded of recent research that suggests that among young men, chronic drug abuse can sometimes be correlated to eating disorder among women, namely that its a control mechanism to keep the frightening adult world at bay by returning the body to a pre-adolscent size/state...

There's alot of this in Withnail... W&M are 'best friends' in that kid sense, sharing everything, arguing, hating, loving .... M is growing up and away at the end...

Sex becomes fearful, icky, stuff of paranoia...(and is therefore of course there as subtext/shadow)

Although I'm sure I found it funny the first hundred or so times I saw it, what makes this film wonderful (and stops it merely being a tedious student quote-fest) for me is the wonderful conjuring of that Last of England atmosphere...
 
 
Sax
14:38 / 19.08.03
Fly, are you quite sure we haven't met and had a conversation about Withnail at some point in the past?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:53 / 19.08.03
When you put it like that... No. No I'm not. Was it at a party somewhere in the middle of England, it was raining outside and I was drunk? God, I wasn't even trying to be clever when I just typed that (those genuinely were the conditions in which I can recall talking about Withnail with random people). No wonder this film appeals.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:34 / 12.01.05
After years of searching and frustration, I finally watched this film last night (through the good graces of my local public library, whose buyers continually astonish and delight me with their catholic and unfailing tastes).

Many, many thanks to all who have written such terrific, insightful comments in this thread. So right. Such a sad movie—not really a comedy at all, but a melancholy meditation with hyperverbal tics.

That said, I find myself in the not-unusual position of somewhat disagreeing with a Flyboy critique: what’s unusual is that I’m kinda coming in from Flyboy’s left.

[W]hat I really get from the film these days is the terrifying spectre of what we might call Thatcherism for want of a better word... An ideology that basically says there is no place in the kind of England we want for weirdo misfits like Withnail or Monty or Marwood-pre-haircut. They are not useful. They do not contribute to society.

See, I didn’t see it that way. Monty and Withnail are not, I think, crumbling due to outside pressure—they are rotting from within. And Marwood’s careerism is, I think, not so much bowing to societal demands as it is a step towards personal fulfillment—as GGM suggests, Marwood is simply growing up.

And he's reaching for sanity, surely. Marwood is a crockpot of neuroses throughout the film, and much of that, I think, has to do with his enforced idleness. Marwood really wants to work—at least, he wants to do something. Both Withnail and Marwood are in a downward spiral—but only Marwood is willing or able to try to take action to escape, to save himself—however flailing and ill-advised that action is. It’s his idea initially to take a holiday, and he actually says something along the lines of “I’ve got to get out of here (London) before I crack up.”

So I really don’t think it’s got as much to do with “the kind of England we want” as with the kind of person Marwood wants to be. In the last scenes, post-haircut, Marwood’s whole body language has changed. He doesn’t strut, but he’s more confident and relaxed—The Fear is no longer with him. By taking action, he has done more than just beconme a "useful member of society": he has saved himself—saved his sanity, maybe even his life (esp. in light of the unused ending & Withnail's suicide).

I guess it comes down to how one feels about work and its rewards. Doing The Work can be its own reward. I think that's how it is for Marwood. He's grateful just to have something to do.

The irony, of course, is that Withnail as much as Marwood yearns for purpose—at least for fame and power—but lacks the inner resources to break out of his rut. “At least you’re getting auditions,” he grumbles to Marwood—but later on we hear Withnail on the phone to his agent, actually turning down auditions. The pity of Withnail is that he is so terribly, wilfully passive: he would rather think of himself as an undiscovered genius than actually take action to get himself discovered.

And this is where things get interesting, politically. Because there’s an obvious class parable going on here, isn’t there? Marwood, his jumper and flat cap the signifiers of his origins, reveals in the end the working-class virtues of self-reliance a willingness to take life as it is.

The two Withnails, on the other hand, are another story. There’s obviously money in the family—or perhaps only in Monty’s, although I could not shake the feeling that the younger Withnail came from wealth as well. (There’s not a shred of real textual evidence to support that, of course—Withnail is ostentatiously unwilling to discuss or contact his parents; but that very unwillingness made me wonder if his squalid life was an extended bout of slumming, of wanting to live like the Common People.)

Paralyzed by a sense of entitlement, capable of communicating only in tones of condescension or contempt, Edwardian finery fraying at the edges—the Withnails are codified as aristocrats, the decadent leisure class bringing about their own ruin by their own weakness and lassitude. It’s not just that the younger Withnail is unsuited to the demands of looking after himself, it’s that he’s so unwilling to try—Marwood is equally useless at country living, but at least he’s out there giving it a shot, while Withnail whimpers in the background, undone by his expectations of being treated in a manner appropriate to his station (his cries of "How dare you?" are quite telling, I think), shocked, shocked by the beastly injustice of a world that does not recognize his greatness.

Withnail is less Bartleby than Oblomov, lost in reveries of fame and power (to make them all pay for treating him so shabbily, as he screams from the hillside—see also “I am buying this establishment and firing you”), constantly blaming others for the consequences of his own fecklessness, cursing the darkness (loudly, and in colorful language) rather than break a sweat lighting a candle.

Monty, while more sympathetic and better able to relate to others (probably because his outsider status has forced upon him a greater degree of self-awareness), shares his nephew’s failings—blaming his failure as an actor on his old agent (with offhanded anti-Semitism); I half-expected from him Norma Desmond’s line “I am big—it’s the pictures that got small”—even his pursuit of Marwood can be read as the expectation of droit de seigneur.

The Withnails are underdogs now, but were top dogs historically. Yes, Society is transforming around them; but if their vestiges of privilege are the first to crumble in a slow march towards meritocracy, how much sympathy can we really have? In the final analysis, if Society will no longer provide support or justification for parasitic posho fucks who feel that the world owes them a living, isn’t that, well, a good thing, politically? Is this the Flyboy of my youth?
 
 
Spaniel
14:19 / 12.01.05
I must ask, Jack, did you laugh?
 
 
Spaniel
14:25 / 12.01.05
Also, there is (some) evidence that Withnail comes from money, above and beyond Monty: his accent.
 
 
Smoothly
14:37 / 12.01.05
Plus a suit from Hawkes.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:52 / 12.01.05
Oh, I laughed my ass off at some of the bits; there were great sight gags (the eggs in the café, Withnail shooting at the fish) and crackin' dialogue (not just Withnail's one-liners—although "How do we make it die?" had D and Imin stitches—but Danny the Headhunter's sing-songy ramblings went down a storm)—we actually watched it with subtitles on, so we didn't miss a word—but all the while we were laughing there was a pervasive sadness.

The sadness was probably because I empathized with Marwood's anxiety and restlessness and Withnail's maddening passivity and his childish feeling of having been wronged—and to a lesser extent with the self-loathing and arrogance. I can recognize these traits in myself, even if I despise them in myself.

If I didn't—if I didn't understand these characters so well—would I have laughed more, or less? I dunno: I didn't identify at all with the buffoons of Dude, Where's My Car?, but I howled all the same. Withnail is a different sort of movie, though: these guys aren't just clowns, and they're none of them particularly lovable. I suppose if I didn't empathize with them, I would have simply found them annoying, rather than amusing.
 
 
_Boboss
14:53 / 12.01.05
everything about him screams posh, just not rich.

i haven't seen this in ages. i like it when he flips his glasses down and the wrecking ball hits camden and jimi starts to play. and i like it when he's in the car with a roast on his lap. and i like it when the old man calls time and they've just sat there, not talking, by the fire, for hours.

but mainly i just like it when.
 
 
Benny the Ball
14:56 / 12.01.05
Sorry, not really adding anything, just that I second Ganesh and don't particularly like R.E.G, and also that I don't like the film. Ralph Brown's good value though.
 
 
_Boboss
15:09 / 12.01.05
oh come on, y'gotta luv them argos adverts..
 
 
Spaniel
09:26 / 13.01.05
Benny, do you dislike Withnail because of REG or despite him?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
10:45 / 13.01.05
On the Marwood/Uncle Monty question, I saw Bruce Robinson being asked about this on a chat show a couple of years ago, and apparently a lot of the dynamic's based on the time he spent as an apprentice actor in the early Seventies, and in particular his appearance in Franco Zepherelli's Hamlet, when it seems that he, as very much the neurotic innocent abroad, was the object of a lot of fairly bewildering attention from older Italian men.
He was vague about the precise details, but Marwood's complete inability to deal with Uncle Monty until he's safely out the way would appear to have been drawn from personal experience, Marwood's character being Robinson's essentially, in the same way as Withnail was apparently based on the actors Vivian McKerrill and Michael Feast.

Hence also the line " boy lands plum role... And I know what for... " a not so subtle reflection on Zepherelli's casting habits.
 
 
Smoothly
10:56 / 13.01.05
I've seen Robinson talk very explicitly about the inspiration for those scenes. Many of Monty's lines - including 'Are you a sponge or a stone?', and 'I shall have you even if it must be burglary' - are pretty much verbatim quotes from his encounters with Franco.
 
 
Benny the Ball
11:29 / 13.01.05
Gumbitch, a little of both really. I can't stand him, and I found the film a little like watching 6th form drama students or a bunch of fringe performers doing their thing. But I did watch it at a time when a) everyone else had seen it and spent ages quoting it and telling me how great it was and b) when I was working with a bunch of actors who I was trying to direct in a satire about religion and the media (god how terrible sounding - Network meets Dogma! ha ha) but they kept chipping their two penny opras worth in and throwing incredible tantrums when they couldn't alter it to make the characters more sympathetic.
 
  

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