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We don't "need" love - dualisms and identity in the 'age of pattern'

 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:24 / 06.08.03
In the Religion thread, Ignatius_J said:

"And we don't "need" love. We need air, water, carbohydrates, protein and a certain temperature range, and that's it."

Well, now.

At the most basic level, I think that's an unproven claim. It's possible, perhaps even likely given the recent upsurge in evidence showing that mood and personality are closely linked to life expectancy, that the bio-chemical manifestations of love are good for the body, and that the sense of well-being of love might act on the body in the same way as some yogas seem to. So we don't 'need' love in the same way that we don't need the kind of diet which will keep us alive into our mid-eighties rather than dying at thirty five.

More interesting, to me, is the suggestion that our body's needs are those which define what 'we' need. Are we our bodies? Well, up to a point. I think it's a mistake to entertain the kind of crude dualist approach which asserts that we are nothing so crass nor so crude as physical beings, that we somehow ride a fleshy robot and that our bodies are just life-support systems for a Mind.

On the other hand, it would be disingenuous to assert that "we" are only our physical characteristics. It may well be that consciousness and a capacity for abstract thought evolved as a survival trait, a particularly effective weapon in the DNA's arsenal, allowing it to conquer ever-greater areas of the globe - even space, perhaps - and wipe out the competition. However, that allows for the possibility that consciousness, as an emergent property, can take us in a new direction, exhibit behaviours which far exceed the relatively small change which produced it.

Have we grown into organisms of thought, defined as much by our ways of thinking and our consciousnesses as by our physical bodies? I'd say "obviously, yes". There's a thought experiment which is often proposed in the study of identity: suppose you write a document containing your opinions and thoughts at a given moment in your life, an artwork which captures the ethos of your life extremely successfully. And then you experience some form of traumatic epiphany, and change all those opinions. A mental patient with no memories reads your earlier artwork, and takes it on board in toto, becoming the person in the book.

Which of the two of you has a greater degree of identity with the the person you once were?

It doesn't matter if you settle on "me" as an answer, so long as the experiment makes it's point: that we're creatures of pattern of the mind as much as presence of the DNA.

In which case, "do we need love?" is a far more vexed question than Ignatius was suggesting.
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:41 / 06.08.03
I think you are right, Sam, for the reasons you state. In fact, if you weren't quoting Ignatius J, I'd be wondering at the point of the thread, since what you say seems entirely uncontentious to me.
 
 
cusm
18:52 / 06.08.03
But is it actually love that we need? I wonder sometimes on the many fumbling attempts to define this emotion, and observe that in many cases what one thinks of as love is more enjoyment of the object of desire than the sort of selfless dedication to the needs of another over those of yourself that marks the sort of ideal spiritual love striven for in both religious and romantic thought. It is, I believe, Joy that more the goal, and more the food for the soul. Certainly, love will bring joy, but is it not more joy itself that is 'necessary' for our survival? For without joy, a creature of thought and experience may come to loose the will to continue that experience. In the end I think this is the major distinction between creatures of DNA and biological replication and creatures of thought and consciousness. The prime directive of the body is to continue to exist and multiply, while the mind seeks at its most basic drive to enjoy that existance. If the mind were seperated from the body and made immortal, such as in a computer aided upload sort of situation, I think it very likely that lack of joy in experience could cause even an immortal consciousness to cease. So in this sense, it would indeed be necessary for survival.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
22:06 / 06.08.03
the mind seeks at its most basic drive to enjoy that existance

Not sure about that at all. It has been argued recently that the mind is a complex of conflicting and complementary memetic patterns seeking to reproduce. A mind whose emergent behaviour resulting from functional combinations of memes is successful will spread its memetic DNA by influence, reproduction, and immitation of other minds...

Propogation may be the driving force of minds as well. Adoption satisfies this memetic desire to reproduce, even if it doesn't satisfy the DNA...
 
 
Sax
06:32 / 07.08.03
But how many of us confuse love with sex? Perhaps some of us get cranky or down if we go several months between relationships of whatever depth, but I wonder whether on a basic level what we are actually desiring is a sexual relationship but the socially acceptable method of getting one is to fall in love to some extent first.

On the other hand, I'm an old-fashioned sucker for love. Do I "need" it? Probably.
 
 
foot long subbacultcha
08:50 / 07.08.03
How about the idea of masochism? That there are those who live to avoid love? Does avoiding love cause pain and self destruction? Is it fair to label a way-of-being as "self destructive" if it's someone's nature to be that way? What about delaying pleasure to better enjoy it when you finally surrender to it? Is it good for you to desire something or someone that you know you will never have for yourself?

To stick to Sam's ideas, I do believe there is as much an element of memetic driving behind the love-avoiders as there is behind the love-seekers. Would be interesting to hear more thoughts on the "is it good for you?" idea, though. One reason for a meme for avoiding love is that perhaps it can be bad for you in certain contexts. Joyful AND painful?
 
 
illmatic
11:08 / 07.08.03
I think mind and body are actually a unity and can be thought of as such – the former arises from the latter like fruit on a tree. I’m not entirely happy with that metaphor as fruit eventually becomes separate leads to new growth whereas mind doesn’t – but I do think we tend to split the two and talk about them as if they’re two separate entities when in fact they are part of one unified process.

As to love – I think yes, we do “need” it, and that it’s a basic function of our beings to seek it. As with the body/mind thing – I think sex/love are part of the same process, they complement each other, rather than existing in opposition. Wilhelm Reich has some interesting things to say about this, and describes sex and love as arising from/being part of a fundamental reaching out towards the world.

As to masochism, Scoobyjah – I don’t think it’s based in the avoidance of love. I think rather this reaching out to the world becomes confused or crossed with feelings of pain, humiliation etc. – the masochist is seeking love/fulfilment/gratification/whatever but this is “tangled” with these other elements.

I’ve got a very interesting book, “Super Masochist”, about performance artist Bob Flanagan – he suffered from cystic fibrosis, and describes how while he was bound as a child to receive medical treatment, he'd receive lots of love and affection, which obviously formed some kind of link between the two feelings.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:09 / 07.08.03
Would be interesting to hear more thoughts on the "is it good for you?" idea, though. One reason for a meme for avoiding love is that perhaps it can be bad for you in certain contexts. Joyful AND painful?

This kind of debate strikes me as rather odd. Perhaps it's because this question is the type that is endlessly impossible to answer. Of course love is joyful and painful, all things that we enjoy are both good and bad for us. Chocolate- damn good for me, not so good for me as well. Spinach- same rules as chocolate.

It seems equally as odd to place people in to categories... do people seek or avoid love? I'm sure there are many who do neither of those things but rather just hang around and have things happen upon them. Can we even categorise people as avoiding love? Avoid seems to indicate, as part of its definition, a purposeful action and I doubt many people actually purposefully steer clear of love.

The mind and the body, it seems to me, are one thing. I've never bought in to dualism and I dislike the idea that they are simply tenuously connected. Our minds, I suspect, are simply governed by our bodies though they certainly can be considered the most complex and misunderstood part.

Adoption satisfies this memetic desire to reproduce, even if it doesn't satisfy the DNA...

Yes but adoption is always the second choice and only people who really want children go through the process. Does it really satisfy that desire or is it a grasp for sanity in the face of the desire for children (sorry if I offend anyone who is adopted or has adopted kids. I don't mean to)?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:24 / 07.08.03
Well, it actually runs counter to the interests of your personal DNA, so either way it makes the point; the actions we take as a consequence of consciousness are not always in favour of our DNA. Conscious behaviour has needs of its own not related to the pure physical business of self-propogation.

So - is anyone against this notion of humans as almost symbiotic clusters of ideational and physical genes? If so, what are we? What does 'human' mean - that's a question which becomes more important as we consider more radical additions to our medical and social prostheses - brain-controlled mechanical limbs and bodyphones and so on.
 
 
cusm
12:54 / 07.08.03
I’m not entirely happy with that metaphor as fruit eventually becomes separate leads to new growth whereas mind doesn’t

But it does, when you consider memes as the fruit of the mind, sharing a similar relationship with consciousness as the mind does with the body. One could easily see a duality between the mind and the memes it carries, which is always a spooky one as it encourages one to see ideas as alien entities invading one's head. Well, if you're crazy, anyway.

*swats at invisible bats and mantarays*
 
 
Quantum
13:16 / 07.08.03
alien entities invading one's head.
...or bees and butterflies cross pollinating our minds, same idea but less spooky.
 
 
illmatic
13:35 / 07.08.03
I’m not entirely happy with the idea of “memes” – it seems to be essentially an abstract concept. It’s not something that’s been verified and ascertained for sure is it? I’ve got Susan Blackmore’s book on the subject, I’ve only leafed through it, but doesn’t she state that memes are only a theory? To cross reference a bit, in his book “Lifelines” Steven Rose makes some interesting points about the use of analogy and metaphor to describe scientific process – he states that a wrong choice of metaphors might lead to very shaky understandings. Might not the whole memes idea be a mistaken metaphor? Are our ideas and components of our identities really selfish replicating entities that spread like viruses? Does this metaphor blind us to other processes?
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:47 / 07.08.03
Personally, while I think that "memes" are a flexible and interesting way to look at things, one shouldn't get too bound up their explanatory power. They are a bit too suggestive without proper justification to my mind.

So - is anyone against this notion of humans as almost symbiotic clusters of ideational and physical genes?

It is hard to imagine anyone who is. At one extreme you have incidents where a person's personality has changed as the result of brain injury (this isn't about genes, true, but demonstrates the physicality of self). At the other end, we know that genes cannot determine behaviour. You might take as a set of examples the way in which we behave counter to the interests of our DNA.

Actually, a strict evolutionary psychologist would probably concede the point but object to the example. No one believes in genetic determinism, but many destructive patterns have explanations in terms of evolutionary adaptation. Not entirely convincing explanations, true, but not entirely implausible either.

For instance, to tackle the adoption example, it isn't hard to believe that it is an evolutionary advantage for a species to have a strong drive to have children. When this drive is frustrated, the feelings persist and people adopt even though it is strictly speaking an evolutionary disadvantage. Thats because genetics gives you tendencies and drives rather than a set of orders to follow.
 
 
spidermonkey
15:26 / 07.08.03
Back to the adoption angle......

Adoption satisfies this memetic desire to reproduce, even if it doesn't satisfy the DNA...

Yes but adoption is always the second choice and only people who really want children go through the process.


Adoption is the first choice for me: I have no particular desire to have my own genetic children apart from a mild curiosity of what I'd produce, and there are computer programs that can show me that.

One of the reasons I can believe that an adopted child can give me everything a genetic child can is my belief that families are formed by love.

In the same way I know of many genetic siblings who have no love and no interest in staying together as a family. If it wasn't for their genetic ties they would be quite happy to never see one another again.
 
 
*
00:55 / 10.08.03
I second. Adoption would absolutely be my first choice; the world needs more homes for kids, not extra kids.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:40 / 10.08.03
To make this statement of personal preference relevant to the thread, what does this then mean? Perhaps in this case that the desire to possess a child, as object of love, receptacle for programming and furtherance of one's own behaviour patterns or ideologies, or whatever purpose we aim to achieve by possessing a child, is more important than the desire to pass on a specific package of DNA, that is that our survivial instincts as identified by evolutionary psychology have altered to concede that there are more important factors in childrearing than genetics..
 
 
foot long subbacultcha
22:18 / 10.08.03
That is a damn good point. There's more to pass on than DNA. Part of parenthood is wanting to continue a legacy, or a craft, or even a story. A sure fire way of leaving your mark on the world is to pass your self on through others, to an apprentice if you will?

When opting for adoption over biological parenthood, for the "world needs more homes for kids, not extra kids" reason, is there more than straightforward altruism at work?
 
  
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