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How can you say that?!?

 
  

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The Natural Way
11:17 / 06.08.03
Anyway, after the Dave Gray mud wrestling comp last week, I got to thinking. Maybe I was a bit harsh....etc...etc..... And on Saturday the universe decided to take its revenge. Yes! It seems the universe is actually all for the liberal-minded approach. It totally digs on diversity and different strokes and all that. It might be a 'lither.

So....it's Sunday and we're all enjoying a good old drink-up at me ol' Mam's birthday bash, when, horror of horrors! I'm sat there with my Sis, Matty, and her beau (who, in order to protect the innocent and all that, shall be referred to forthwith as 'Jayvid') and we're talking music. Jayvid, much to my total amazement, is a big Oasis fan - he still loves them - and the convo began to segue towards Britpop and how important and influential Oasis were. I'm working from memory here, but this is roughly the gist of the thing:

Jayvid: '...I mean, before Britpop, what was there? The English music scene hadn't said anything interesting since the 70's..."

Pig: 'Uh...okay...'

Jayvid: 'You try and think of one thing.'

Pig: 'Uh...well, there was the small matter of acid house...'

Jayvid: 'That didn't do anything.'

Pig: 'Well, um, it changed the face of popular music. House influenced everything from the Happy...err... well, everything. You can't listen to the top 40/adverts/radio/theme-tune w/out hearing a kickdrum. It changed the emphasis from melodic to percussive. It changed the social/listening/Friday night habits of thousands upoun thousands of young people up until the present day. It produced some of the most outrageous fashions...'

Jayvid: 'It didn't do anything. People danced to it in clubs on drugs. Nobody really likes to listen to it. Nobody listens to it at home. It's just clubs and drugs. Repetitious nonsense. It's hasn't done anything for music.'

Pig: 'Um....'

And that REALLY IS the gist of it.

Now...I actually 100% dig Jayvid - he's intelligent, friendly, witty and cool, but this! This WILL NOT stand! It seems incredible to me that someone could dismiss something as big as house - the music at the centre of the late 80's dance/rave boom - as completely, well, NOTHING in the scheme of things. I don't even want to start trying to justify how important it's been, 'cause I'd be here all day, but needless to say, a million and one things Jayvid likes wouldn't even exist w/out it! What I can't believe:

that the evidence of the last 15 years isn't slapping him round the face. We wouldn't even have the CJBill, at least not in it's present form, w/out the rave scene!

that he actually really knows what house is. He professes to like techno and electro....so why not house? I mean, the lines can get pretty blurry.

that he confuses his inability to understand the joys of an endless-groove-that-jus'-don't-stop with 'people only like it on drugs'.

that any music that illicits the 'it's just not music' response, is bound to be worth a second look.

Oh, shit, it just does my head in all over. I can't catalogue the reasons. It just seems so willfully ignorant.

So, yeah, the universe agrees with the right-on crew. 'You see!' it says, 'It's annoying when people shout their mouths off w/out thinking!'

Uh-huh...okay, universe, but what do I do about it?

I moan. Thanks Barbelith. I get constructive and all teacher-like:

Suggestions for the ultimate house mixtape please.

Oh, and if anyone could think up some wicked text (history o' house, personal experiences with the music - that sort of thing) to chuck in with it, this thread could become a right tootin' rave up!
 
 
illmatic
13:09 / 06.08.03
Is it just UK House and dance you want to put on a tape, Pig, cos if not my all time fave is "Can you feel it" by Mr Fingers. Perhaps Joey Beltram "Energy Flash"? The part of my brain that holds all the house music info hasn't been accessed for a bit, so more when I think of 'em.

For a text I'd say Altered State by Matthew Collin ain't half bad. I think he's a bit mad to say nothing happened since the 70s - nothing to you maybe, but what about The Smiths? All the post punk stuff that's getting shamelessly revived at the moment? Happy Mondays and The Stone Roses? The mash of hip hop, go go and 70's funk that got played in London clubs and led to the rare groove revival (bit London-centric that one maybe)? Drum and Bass? Where has he been for the last twenty years?

IMO, Britpop is pretty much an inspid fart in the bath compared to all the above, and Oasis are closer than Slade than to The Beatles or The Stones.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:28 / 06.08.03
It's a very strange state of affairs. You know when you actually can't formulate a sentence, 'cause some's got it sooooo wrong?

It's unbelievable, because Jayvid is a very savvy, intelligent person. Not at all dumb. But you know those arguments where someone just repeats one line and the more they repeat it the more true it becomes? It was like that. Very frustrating.

Cool about 'Can U Feel it?'. My fave house tune, too! That one's definitely going on there. I'm not sure about 'Energy Flash' - the constant refrain of '...ecstasy...ecstasy' might have him going, 'Look! I told you! Drugs!'

The thing is - apart, perhaps, from David Gray - I'm always willing to check out new music, esp when I know it's a huge, influential genre... I just can't understand his flat refusal to think in terms other than: 'repetition. drugs. bad.'

Arrgnngh.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:30 / 06.08.03
I think I'll begin the CD with the instrumental of 'Can U....' and end on the vocal. That'll be fun.
 
 
illmatic
13:50 / 06.08.03
Sounds to me a bit like he thinks if it's not a four piece band it's not music. And if everyone hasn't heard of it, it's not influential and therefore nothing happened. That's one of the things with House I suppose, being largely instrumental music didn't create stars, press and rock star antics. You might wanna point that out in your next row.

You could do a bit of a "the house years mixtape" start with a few things from Detroit or Chicago ("No UFO's" - Model 500 f'instance) take it through some early US/UK stuff (some Todd Terry, "Chime" - Orbital?), bit of Jungle and D n B (Goldie - Inner City Life) and bring it up to date with some garage. I'm trying to think of tunes that still rock on a tape rather than just things I've got really good memories of. Bringing up all sort of weird memories (anyone remember Hip House? "The Chief" by Tony Scott?)
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:52 / 06.08.03
Although I can't suggest titles you might want to consider pointing out to him that a lot of classical music is based on repitition and subtle changing of the theme, much as the more 'orchestral' dance music is. But ironically, I think the music he listens to already is the easiest to show as being highly repetative also.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:21 / 06.08.03
The trouble is, guys, his position was...errr...ambiguous to say the least. He already listens to some techno and says he really likes electro, so he already enjoys repetitious music. It's THAT confusing and nonsensical. I think I'd like to keep the CD on the house tip (poss some techno). Segues are all very well, but I'm trying to prove a point about a specific style of music.

A problem I'm facing: I've been pretty skint for a little while now, and loads of my early house records were stolen in my teens. Anyone want to shout me a CD of cahlassic stuff ('can you party', 'humanoid', 'dreams of santa anna', 'feeling good'...whatever)? T'would be appreciated. Otherwise its loads of hours down my bro's downloading shit, or fannying about with my mates record collections, copying them onto MD and then transferring them to CD.
 
 
Old brown-eye is back
14:29 / 06.08.03
You may like to inform him of the 'proper' musical lineage running all the way up to - and crashing out the other side of - House. Gospel -James Brown - P-Funk- Can - Kraftwerk -Disco - Hip Hop - Electropop - Primal Scream - Underworld/Orbital blah blah blah. (Another great book is Energy Flash by Simon Reynolds, which not only has the sense to compare dance music to The Stooges, but also comes with a fecking wonderful compilation CD.) Next make your friend aware that the cross pollination represented by House is always more interesting and fruitful than the 'purity' of Oasis and their ilk - and in fact, the lack of imagination in British music at the moment could very well be a direct result of fucking Britpop. Lastly, compare Liam to a monkey with Tourettes.

If none of that works, give him your copy of White Ladder and send him on his way.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:39 / 06.08.03
Again, I tried to do all that, but to no avail.

I think it'll take a completely non-confrontational, educative approach.

The book suggestions are good. I've not really read around the music much. Nice to be reminded of what's out there. What's on the 'Energy Flash' CD?
 
 
The Natural Way
14:43 / 06.08.03
Re the 'cross-pollination' thing. Jayvid feels that, whilst he loves the Mondays, the Scream etc., the scene that inspired their music is crap. How this impacts on his 'House music did NOTHING' argument, I don't know. As I said: confusing.

Sometimes you really want these people to get their butts down here and make these funny statements.
 
 
Old brown-eye is back
14:46 / 06.08.03
Bit of this, bit of that. Beltram's Energy Flash is definitely on there; Voodoo Ray as well I think, although I could be wrong. DJ Hype turns up, darkcore 4Hero, LFO. Loads of stuff.

It's a good introduction - like the book.
 
 
illmatic
14:47 / 06.08.03
Can't help you with the music I'm afraid. I relied on mates mostly, and what I do have has been a bit decimated - will have a look through tape stash and see what's there though.

Re. books - dunno, if you've ever heard of journalist Gavin Hills? Sady, he died a couple of years ago, but he was a complete genius. He wrote a great piece about the links between footie hooliganism and house in his collected essays, can't remember what it's called. He also wrote a great story called "White Burger Danny" in a anthology edited by Sarah Champion - great portrait of late 80's early 90s rave madness - kickers and dodgy Naf Naf clothes, driving round the M25 all night listening to Colin Dale. S'great.
 
 
rizla mission
14:48 / 06.08.03
'...I mean, before Britpop, what was there? The English music scene hadn't said anything interesting since the 70's..."

god, I hate that fucking attitude!

Like, if there isn't some band getting #1 hits and tabloid front pages and there isn't some generic style with a dumb press-hype name, then NOTHINGS HAPPENING! Coz who cares about music that's made by people who don't get namechecked in The Sun?

Bothering to list all the fantastic music that's been made in Britain "..since the 70s" would just be silly, wouldn't it?

That's the same sort of mindset that declares pop music to be "DEAD!" every five minutes, despite massively overwhelming evidence to the contrary if they could be arsed to look anywhere other than Woolworths..
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:49 / 06.08.03
I wouldn't advise the route of slating Britpop entirely - not just 'cos I don't agree with the position, but also 'cos it's often best to find some common ground. It does sound tricky though if he's even saying that he likes other electronic/dance stuff but not house... Oh god - he's not into 'IDM' is he?
 
 
Old brown-eye is back
14:50 / 06.08.03
If he thinks it's crap, then he thinks it's crap. The only thing you can really do is make your compilation and hope it changes his mind - ask for one in return, though.
 
 
The Natural Way
15:00 / 06.08.03
I don't need one. I'm familiar with (and like) many of the things he likes. Anyway, it would be a present.

I think what I've been trying to say, Shapes, is that he doesn't really know what house is, and he hasn't actually got an *argument* or enough information to set himself up as a house hater. That's the feeling I got, anyway.

And, yes, he prolly does like some IDM, but then so do I. There's plenty of good stuff out there. You know that. Yr trying to wind me up again.

As for the wonderful "White Burger Danny", I remember it well. Are those pills still going?
 
 
No star here laces
17:38 / 06.08.03
Ultimate house mix:

Not in the right order or anything, but ought to contain the following (as examples of 'soul' and 'meaning' in 'faceless dance music')

Dubtribe Sound System - "Do it now"
Sterling Void - "Alright"
Phase II - "Reachin'"
Frankie Knuckles and Satoshii Tomeii - "Tears"
Dajae - "Brighter days" (Ron Trent and Chez Damier mix)
The Source pres Candi Staton - "You got the love"
Guy called Gerald - "Voodoo Ray"
Roy Davis Jnr - "Gabrielle"
Ten City - "Devotion" (Bam Bam mix)
Joe Smooth - "Promised Land"
KOT - "Finally"
BOP - "Stand Up"
Masters at Work feat India - "I can't get no sleep"
Harddrive feat Barbara Tucker - "Deep inside"
Basement Jaxx - "Romeo"

And just to be difficult, you could include:

Adonis - "No way back"
Fast Eddie - "Acid thunder"
Royal House - "Can you party"
Green Velvet - "Flash"
Stakker Humanoid - "Humanoid"
 
 
The Natural Way
18:48 / 06.08.03
Well, that's a pretty definitive soul-y/gospel-y house selection, but its a bit one-sided for my tastes. I'm not sure I want to be that obvious, Jefe. I mean, we're taking the whole "you want soul? You got soul!" thing a bit literally, here. And I never could stand "Tears" or Ten City.

Definites so far (this may reach to double CD action):

Promised Land
Break 4 Love
Voodoo Ray
Flash
No Way back
Humanoid
Can U Party
Can U Feel It?
U Got The Love (possibly.... It's a bit played out - all that rereleasing nonsense...)

I guess how you define classic house (apart from the popularity of the individual tunes) has a great deal to do with where you were coming from when you originally discovered it. Myself, I always favoured the non-vocal stuff - I liked to place my own meanings on the tunes, not have them dictated by a singer. One of the things I loved about house was that there WERE so few singers/songs. It allowed the imagination to wander, but always pulled you back to the groove. Really, I think the most emotional house tunes are largely instrumental.

Now if anyone could copy me Tot's "Wot U R", I'd have a shit-fit!

See! See how it always turns into a blag that NO-ONE takes me up on!
 
 
No star here laces
10:37 / 07.08.03
Actually, talking of which, you should include "Knights of the Jaguar"...
 
 
The Natural Way
12:26 / 07.08.03
I'm not sure I'm familiar with That'n.

Why don't you.....

I'll stop now.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:43 / 07.08.03
weelll, if you really want to do this.....

skilliant: having smashed a load of my best house stuff years ago (i could do some lists but it'd make you and jef cry like babies), I actually have a couple of those 'classic' cd comps...next time yr in town pop over and grab 'em.

but if you don't like 'tears', yr not fit to be a house educator. hand the task over to someone better qualified, ignoramus

but i'd chuck these on;

nude photo/strings of life-derrick may/rhythim is rhythim
renegade soundwave- the phantom
joey beltram- my sound
NYC peech boys- don't make me wait (this was one of the smashers. waaaaah. peech boys in general, actually, for being rock/dance crossover and damn good in oh, 1982...)
nitro deluxe- let's get brutal
age of love-age of love (jam/spoon remix)

and to be annoying:
dj pierre - the trip

put some shamen on there, I know you'll moan but he'll've heard of it,and it's an easy link between house and 90s beats-led pop music, re the 'where's the influence'thing.

(actually you could just copy him that warp 10+1 thing. listing here)

there's some good stuff on house here

you could also point out that britpop was/is just as into its drugs/mythologising them/the music being drenched in them as house. 'sjust different drugs, booze'n fags (and speed/coke/the odd dabblers in heroin) mainly...

'cigarettes and alcohol'/'rock and roll star'?

oasis were all about alochol-fuelled madness/the drug-soaked rockstar lifestyle... and in this respect they're a pale shadow of the mondays...

suede?hello? blur's parklife is in large chunks a hymn to booze...

what're his views on primal scream?
 
 
The Natural Way
15:51 / 07.08.03
I've got the Warp Albums, Benny. 'The Morning After' (we really DID listen to this as the sun went up....all the time), 'Can U Feel it?', 'Let's Get Brutal', 'Nude Photo' and 'Soul Thunder' were all on my non-stop playlist when I was a kid and I couldn't pass up an album full of that stuff!

As for Renegade Soundwave......it would have to be 'Thunder'! I love that tune.

As for the Shamen, when I first heard 'Progen' I nearly shat I thought it was so good, but I'm avoiding them for the same reasons I'd avoid the Beloved and their various different remixes: they just sound a bit naff now (except, perhaps, for the wonderful 'Calyx of Isis' mix of 'Your Love Takes Me Higher').

'Strings of Life'! That one's got to get on there. Bring on the Lucky Dancing Derrick!
 
 
The Natural Way
15:55 / 07.08.03
I'm going to ring Bobossboy tonight, and make him start downloading.

Good Bobossboy. Good Pig.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:11 / 07.08.03
yes, i know, was just being annoying, thought you might be too busy with coastal breakz

you *must* know the Knights of the Jaguar ep,gorgeous slice of techno/house by DJ Rolando...

it's time for *your* education, Pig.
 
 
The Natural Way
16:18 / 07.08.03
I may well know it, but, no matter how hard the teenpig tried to trainspot all the names of all those tunes, stuff always managed to slip through the net. Someone always remembers more stuff than you do. And most of them were listening to Def Leppard at the time.

But educate away....
 
 
The Knights Templar Boogie Machine
21:39 / 07.08.03
all the early transmat,trax recordings,
eddie flashin' fowlkes, k alexi, cajmere ,kevin saunderson, dj pierre
dj sneak, boo williams ,glenn underground....
IT IS TIME FOR YOUR EDUCATION!
 
 
Gary Lactus
23:42 / 07.08.03
So far I like "Teenpig" and "Def Leppard" the best.
 
 
Gary Lactus
23:46 / 07.08.03
Oh yes and all the wine I dranjk at Bobboss' house as Man Cherish served dinner. Bobboss was busy downloading. This looks like a go project. How old is Jayvid? Can he still be turned? Is it too late?
 
 
Red Cross Iodized Salt
02:37 / 08.08.03
Staying on the soulful / Detroit tip, how 'bout...


Moodymann - Shades of Jae

Maurizio - Domina (C.Craig Mind Mix)

Underground Resistance - Jupiter Jazz

Carl Craig - At Les


You'll need IE and Window's Media Player to play the last two audio samples - they're only about 30 seconds long though...
 
 
illmatic
06:28 / 08.08.03
Can he still be turned? Is it too late?

Obviously, Pig to give him the full experience, as soon as you put the tape on start dancing around. Fraley can turn the lights on and off real fast and you can rub Vicks into his chest and ask him for some of his water. If that doesn't get him nothing will.
 
 
The Natural Way
08:40 / 08.08.03
Jayvid is 25. Old enough to know better.

Knights: why would you assume I was unfamiliar with those people. I mean, Kevin Saunderson? Cajmere? Please!

And I had the biggest crush on Fowlkes.

But we're not here to talk about me and the artists/tunes I'm familiar with, we're here to help Jayvid! Yes! that's JAYVID!

And 'At Les' is definitely my fave Craig tune (tho' I don't like the wanky, jazzy remix) - that's gotta go on there.
 
 
The Natural Way
08:45 / 08.08.03
Never heard that 'Domina' business, and, much to a couple of friends chagrin, I never really checked Moodyman. Nice.
 
 
The Natural Way
08:47 / 08.08.03
Oh, I've just remembered! 'A Day in the Life'! Oh, yes!

Definitely two 80 min CD's.
 
 
Gary Lactus
09:08 / 08.08.03
I may try and dance whilst turning the lights on and off. My years of raving experience should put me in good stead for this difficult task.
 
 
Gary Lactus
09:12 / 08.08.03
Oh yeah. Isn't there a good chance that your sister will get wind of this thread?
 
  

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