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A credible Party of the Right? Does that mean anything?

 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
21:25 / 01.08.03
I've seen it suggested more than once recently that the UK needs a credible party of the Right to challenge New Labour's domination of the political sphere. The argument runs that the consequence of Blair's Labour having total dominance of the centre is the rise of an ultra-right group in the Le Pen style.

Questions:

What is the difference between a credible centre right party and New Labour? What policies might differentiate the two?

Would the rise of a centre right party split New Labour sufficiently to allow the credible reformation of a party of the Left?

Are left-right politics still valid? Or is New Labour's overwhelming lead a signal that the political battleground is moving to new areas? If so, what are they?

In the broader picture, does this contention imply that America needs a credible party of the Left?
 
 
SMS
22:51 / 01.08.03
I think America has a credible party of the left. Yes, it is true that the Republicans control the Presidency, both houses of congress and sort of the Supreme Court (most justices have been appointed by Republicans, but the court has a habot of frustrating Republicans anyway). But they do not control these by a large margin. The nation is still very evenly divided between Republican and Democrat (about 50-50).

I worry a little that we won't have a conservative party if Bush is going to lead the Republicans. He's cut taxes, which is fine, but everyone I have heard says that he has done nothing to cut or even restrain government spending. One magaizine asked the question, "Bush a socialist?" His foreign policy isn't conservative; it's radical Wilsonian interventionism combined. I want a credible party of the right in America. They would promote fair trade agreements, spending and tax cuts including significant reduction of IRS' power, environmental conservation, and a literal interpretation of the constitution even when it is in opposition to their opinions.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:19 / 01.08.03
What is the difference between a credible centre right party and New Labour?

This is a spectacularly good question, and also relevant to SMAtthewStolte's point. Theoretically, the right and the left both want similar things, in the UK at least and in the centre at least - individual rights, freedom, the maximum possible service produced by the minimum possible tax, If the Cnservative party claims that it can deliver the same level of service with lower taxation, that is a question of accountancy rather than idelogy - broadly the same aims, but achieved through different means.

The problem being that the Right is not credible at present in British politics because those who choose to represent the right tend to have something badly wrong with them - they are caught up in ideological issues such as Europe, homosexuality , asylum seekers et al - broadly the same issues that those elements of the left who do not feel themselves to be represented by New Labour complain that New Labour is failing on, by adopting an unnecessarily "right wing" agenda. In which case, is it a question of policies or of personalities? Are we stuck with the concept that, for all their basic shared ideology, the current crop of right wingers outside (and possibly inside) New Labour are too scary and wrong to be considered as possible political leaders?

The US situation seems to be somewhat different. from a UK perspective, many US politicians seem "right wing" - the questions come down to their methods. There was a concerted attempt in the UK by the right to represent "tax and spend" as a deviant form of economics. Of course, every governmnent taxers and every government spends - to a very great extent, that is what governments *do* - but the idea was to inculcate the notion that high levels of spending are unnecessary and thus that high levels of taxation are also unnecessary - in a purer form, something along the lines of Reaganist trickle-down economics.

So, is the absence of a credible right wing a result of the acceptance of right-wing accountancy into left or centre-left ideology? In which case, are the left and right wings of pariamentary politics both failing to provide a credible right or left-wing position?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:52 / 02.08.03
Which leads me to ask what are the defining characteristics of parties not of the centre? And are those characteristics still compatible with credibility?

On the Left, presumably, you get more and more emphasis on social equality and a committment to social services and infrastructure owned and controlled by the government and directly paid for in tax. Eventually you reach knotty questions about the legitimacy of private property which moderate leftists mostly wish to avoid. There presumably ought to be a committment to the dismantling of the unelected House of Lords and ultimately a rejection of the Queen as even titular head of state (something, incidentally, I'd quite like to see.)

Interestingly, the Left's relationship with religion is ambiguous. From a strict Marxist point of view, the strong Left ought to be tearing down the Church of England, and actually from a purely democratic standpoint it seems to me unfeasible to have one Church involved in government. All or none, I think, and if any, then also a section for atheists and agnostics...

The problems with these positions are said to be as follows: in the past, they have lead to bloated infrastructure eating more money than the services it appears to maintain, with a poor systemic response time and a dehumanising red-tape culture. The high tax-burden on high wage-earners has caused them to take their money out of Britain all together, and stifled growth in Industry (growth being asserted as an unequivocal good).

On the Right, what is there? Lower taxation (but not by much, as far as I can see; Labour seem to have paired it right down) and more industries and services in private hands; a smaller government infrastructure, less red tape - but Labour is, at the moment, doing these things with at least as much enthusiasm as any Conservative party. There ought to be issues of personal freedom, but the Tory remnant is very blue rinse. 'Personal freedom' at this point means things like gay marriage, decriminalised marijuana, and less prudish attitudes to sex in general. That's never going to play with what has become the last bastion of Toryism.

There are some floating issues, though: immigration and developmental aid, terror and diplomacy, and the Environment. These are all aspects of common and foreign policy stemming in many if not most or all cases from issues of global social justice. Given the emphasis on collective benefits and the general good, you'd expect Labour to be a strongly environmentalist party - and in theory, it is. But anything which threatens the expansion of the job market or restrains the activities of business to make money is unpopular with the unions, and Blair's friends in the boardrooms, and so Labour remains unwilling and unable to challenge corporate environmental misdeeds. Fines for environmental damage are pocket change in corporate terms - ti's cheaper to pay them than to abide by the law (2).

If no one is willing or able to present an alterative economic paradigm, these are the defining issues of our political landscape; these will come to redefine 'Left' and 'Right'. A party which wanted to be genuinely different would have to produce a commitment to greater transparency - British governments are obsessive and inveterate secret-keepers; greater and more open democracy - information, voting, and corporate accountability; environmentally prudent; coherent in foregin policy, notions of justice and accountabolity, and immigration; and committed to personal freedoms such as sexuality. But most of all, it would have to understand that the electorate has grasped the difference between style ans substance - it's no longer any good to engage in 'trust-building exercises'; you have to be worthy of trust.

More as it comes to me - hope I haven't derailed my own thread.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:52 / 02.08.03
Of course, it very much depends on where you draw the line between left and right. For instance, I would argue that New Labour is a party of the centre right and that the US doesn't have a left wing party. It has a party of the right and a party which is slightly further right.

Are left-right politics still valid? Or is New Labour's overwhelming lead a signal that the political battleground is moving to new areas? If so, what are they?

They are still valid as a broad strokes distinction, although the details of the issues have changed from their traditional roots. There are other elements, like the authoritarian/libertarian axis on the political compass test, but people like Blair who tell you that the old distinctions aren't relevant are usually trying to stifle debate. This is an element of British politics, at least, that tries to obfuscate the real choices being offered. For instance,

If the Cnservative party claims that it can deliver the same level of service with lower taxation, that is a question of accountancy rather than idelogy - broadly the same aims, but achieved through different means.

while that is justifiable at some level, it is a fiction to say that this question of accountancy is not an ideological one.

But does the UK need a credible party of the right? Not necessarily. It does need a credible opposition, however, and could do with electoral reform in order to provide some genuine voter choice, IMO. I can't see that the success of New Labour opens up the possibility of the rise of the far right, unless you mean the right wing of the Tory party, which I am sure you don't.
 
 
SMS
03:38 / 03.08.03
By the way, do you Brits even have a libertarian party?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:06 / 03.08.03
Probably is one somewhere. Or likely more than one. But then, Left Libertarian or Right Libertarian?... How many Socialist parties are there now? How many Labour?

The liberal/socialist, idealistic political groups fragment and factionalise faster than you can say 'establishement stooge!' in a self-righteous voice.
 
 
grant
17:17 / 03.08.03
Are there any *credible* parties of any stripe?

Have there ever been?

It seems like there have been very few moments in history when politicians have ever been trusted.

I think the debate will still carry on in terms of Left and Right, but what exactly "Left" and "Right" mean will continue to morph slowly. Like, Republicans nowadays call themselves "the party of Lincoln," but the leadership doesn't seem all that interested in modern civil rights, do they? Maybe the next phase of the distinction will deal with what constitutes "privilege." (Quota systems for minorities Vs. an egalitarianism that turns a blind eye to economic realities.)

I honestly don't get Blair's "Third Way" business -- it just seems like another way to say middle. I admit I don't know it that well, but it confuses me just enough to make me think it's an obfuscation. Jesse Ventura's platform -- "I'm a fiscal conservative and a social liberal" -- seems like more of a Third Way, although it's really just a good read of what your average American wants to vote for. A compromise.
 
 
doctorbeck
09:59 / 04.08.03
i think british politics would benefit more from a credible party of the left, the right and centre right ground is now occupied by tory, labour and liberal parties, a credible opposition of the right would be hard pressed to have much to say beyond useless little england carping and increasing xenophobia

and the tories and labour both do plenty of that already


a
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:27 / 04.08.03
Well, okay, Doc. So what are the policies of a credible party of the Left?
 
 
doctorbeck
11:18 / 04.08.03
hello sam

a tricky one to be sure, as we have to assume that a degree of electability is called for in their politics

but off the top of my head i would say anyone calling for renationalisation of the railways, curb on top levels of pay for company directors, no more privstisation of public services or elements thereof by direct means or by stealth (like hiving off the cleaning services to firms who are expensive and sub-standard) and taxing people a little more to pay for health and education for all amd making an argument for immigration being economically useful to the country and not a flood of sponging 'bogus' asylum seekers. plus david blunkets head being paraded around london on a pole

would be in with a decent chance of electoral success and be able to challenge some of the thatcherite excesses of new labour

the centre ground is too crowded and the existing left parties are crying in the wilderness to a few disciples (like the SWP, and various rump marxist parties, out of touch and with no real chance)

at least then i'd have someone to vote for too, and it might drag labour back to it's roots


a
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:22 / 04.08.03
It's a pretty mild definition of 'Left', though, isn't it?
 
 
Sobek
12:27 / 04.08.03

*By the way, do you Brits even have a libertarian party?*

I do not think that it is a Party, but I know of this:

Libertarian Alliance
http://www.libertarian.co.uk

P.S. I am not British, but no one else answered.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
20:02 / 04.08.03
It depends what you mean by 'Libertarian'. It's a pretty broad term, it used to even mean Anarchist at one point (around the early 20th ce). I suppose in the modern context it would mean a lot of privitasation, coupled with decreased taxation, humanist attitudes towards sex/drugs etc. and an overall decrease in government power (leading, presumably to Ayn Rand style Anarcho-Capitalism in the long run)
We have the Liberal Democrat party. (I'm not techy enough to post a link here) and they roughly follow the principles laid out on Libertarian.org, though with less emphasis on capitalism (in fact they're roughly socialistic) and general pacificism/tolerance.
 
 
doctorbeck
07:27 / 05.08.03
Sam said
'It's a pretty mild definition of 'Left', though, isn't it?'

totally agree, but i was thinking within the limits of what might be electorally acceptable and what might be acceptable to the new world order of the IMF / G8 / rupert murdoch axis of evil, rather than what idealy a lot on the left would like


a
 
 
Grand Panjandrum of the Pointless
21:17 / 05.08.03
My take on the political situation in Britain at the moment is that the positions of the major parties have simply been transposed one space to the right: the Labour party is now Conservative, and the Conservatives are reactionary(at least on the only issues they ever seem to talk about).

I disagree with the argument that the excessive electoral dominance of New Labour will cause more voters to drift to the extreme right. This argument has common sense behind it, but fails to take account of the weird behaviour of the Conservatives.
The campaign strategy of the Tories, when not completely off the wall, shows a neurotic obsession with retaining the votes of a certain elderly constituency who would vote for anything with a blue rosette. (Iain Duncan Smith’s first public press conference was given in the Imperial War Museum, underneath a Spitfire). These are the people most likely to vote far right in the UK with minimum encouragement. The Tories are preaching to the converted, and while this doesn’t help their project of regaining the support of middle England, it does usefully keep these people out of the clutches of the far right. The BNP, like the Nazis, needs petit bourgeois support before it can become any sort of threat. So long as its supporters come mostly from council estates, it will remain marginal.

What would differentiate New Labour and a credible Centre right party? Pragmatically, I think the major issue would be New Labour’s heavy handed administration of public services, particularly the sharp increase in testing/general paperwork in secondary education. Lots of trad labour/floating voters have serious problems with these policies, as is evidenced by various recent articles in the left wing press. But this lacks the instant voter appeal of tax issues.
Another problems is that a lot of issues previously used to define the left/right distinction have become much less emotive for most people, and therefore less useful for distinguishing parties. I think Haus was right to suggest that ideology is degenerating into accountancy.
A possible distinction is a few years down the road. Party lines may well be retrenched once genetechnology starts having obvious widespread effects on our moral choices.

Sam says:
Interestingly, the Left's relationship with religion is ambiguous. From a strict Marxist point of view, the strong Left ought to be tearing down the Church of England,
The CofE seems to be doing a perfectly good job of that itself, without help from either side


He also remarks:
A party which wanted to be genuinely different would have to produce a commitment to greater transparency - British governments are obsessive and inveterate secret-keepers;

As Sir Humphrey said in Yes Minister. “Open government is a contradiction in terms, Minister. One can be open, or one can govern.” No serious politician in power is ever likely to implement meaningful open government policies. Moreover, it would be very easy to superficially satisfy such a commitment by releasing a deluge of documentary garbage with a few nuggets cunningly hidden in it - as in fact Humphrey does to Hacker in YM. How can you ever be sure to what extent the govt is being open?
Campaigning for greater governmental transparency is a waste of effort better spent on other issues on which one might be able to extract meaningful pledges, IMHO
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:27 / 06.08.03
Campaigning for greater governmental transparency is a waste of effort better spent on other issues on which one might be able to extract meaningful pledges, IMHO

I think that's a bit silly. It's perfectly possible to govern more openly than we do here - almost every democracy in the world does it. Witnout information there is no accontability. Without accountability there is no democracy.

A 'meaningful' pledge in this issue would be a working Freedom of Information act. And such an act may become more and more important as time goes by - especially as corporations become more involved in public infrastructure and policy.
 
  
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