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* So When Would You Call The Police?

 
  

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Regrettable Juvenilia
12:28 / 08.01.02
Move along, nothing to see here.

[ 08-01-2002: Message edited by: Flyboy ]
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
12:33 / 08.01.02
Good idea.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
14:25 / 08.01.02
For reference purposes, potus, I think it's generally considered a leetle bit rude, not to mention histrionic, to delete all your posts in a thread.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
14:30 / 08.01.02
Clearly I was talking crap, nobody needs to read that do they.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
14:38 / 08.01.02
This may well need to go to a different thread, but Potus, if you hypothesize an argument, and delete your hypothesis because you later decide that you're wrong, aren't you kind of taking the easy way out? Not to mention a): not having the courage to defend your argument OR admit that you may have been wrong in your first hypothesis or b): not allowing anyone else to have a chance to consider your original argument REGARDLESS of what you may currently think of it?

Stand strong, my man!
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
14:40 / 08.01.02
I love Cherry.

[ 08-01-2002: Message edited by: The Haus of Rain ]
 
 
Cherry Bomb
14:44 / 08.01.02
I love me, too.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
15:00 / 08.01.02
Well in a more realistic situation I was pissed by broad assumptions, insults and a pet peeve that is seemingly purposeful misinterpretation. Simply I have no patience for that. Guess there's no space for someone as stupid as me around here.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:09 / 08.01.02
Oh, dry your eyes, Potus.

It's very poor etiquette to delete your half of the conversation, because now this thread is permanently damaged in terms of readability. No matter how ill-considered your arguments and comments may have been, you've now made yourself look more foolish by leaving it up to the imagination of others to fill in your gaps...

Jeezy creezy, if you post something foolish, live with it, don't abuse your power to delete yourself... It's very cowardly.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
15:10 / 08.01.02
Hey hey hey, ex-pli-quez, man! I'd like to know how you're coming up with these thoughts and opinions! Bring it on!
 
 
Ierne
15:24 / 08.01.02
Deleting all of one's posts makes a great "HEY!!! FUCK THE LOT OF YOU!!!" statement, there's no denying that...
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
16:07 / 08.01.02
Based on experience which, as Haus kindly pointed out, is of limited worth because I'm a straight white male and therefore I am not privy to the usual victimisation of any other demographic.

I merely hypothesised that an adjustment in behaviour would reduce the potential for police aggravation.

Somewhere into this and frankly beyond my stupid straight white male capacity for determination this was taken to mean act more straight, more white, more male and more clean cut. Strangely enough, this was not the case but maybe I'm not allowed to have other opinions in which case I'll stick to more bigoted opinions.

This was mainly in reference to thing like demonstrations or more daily interactions. For instance when at a demonstration, avoiding close proximity to those that flout the law or antagonise the police in such manners as smoking dope (regardless of your drug habits and beliefs, it's still illegal and doing it in full view of the public puts a certain pressure on the police to respond) or wearing masks while shouting all cops fuck donkeys. the right to free speach and protest does not allow you the right to flaunt the law and act without recrimination. Where sexuality, colour of hair or other personality traits come into that is beyond me, feel free to explain.

In instances of violence, abuse, personal theft and the like, acting like a stoner, a flaky queen who doesn't know how to avoid trouble is going to invite a degree of cynicism. Yes appearance/sexuality will come into that but much like a job interview, appearances can change the manner in which you're treated. Is it fair - maybe not or maybe so because everyone gets treated in the same way.

Maybe the allegory of the entity as a single personality was flawed but the simple truth is that you can expect a minimum level of service from the police. Expect it and press for more.

I fail to understand why people of a minority don't report things because they "don't trust the cops to treat them properly". It's absolutely imperative to seek equal treatment. If memory serves me correctly, and I sincerely hoope it does, womens rights and minority rights didn't change because people sat around thinking that they wouldn't be treated properly. They knew they wouldn't but were trying to change things.

Report crime, if you don't get treated equally, report that as well. Recriminations, report it. Unless you keep taking discrimination to task, it's not going to change in a hurry. But the first step is to trust the police, act on it when you're betrayed.


Come to think of it, if crimes against minorities don't get reported and are less likely to be acted on, then I could perpetrate minority specific crime and my chances of never being caught are higher.

Go on, I know you'll tear my post to pieces, it's not work the paper it isn't written on.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
16:09 / 08.01.02
Oh yeah, deleting my posts is a FUCK YOU. If you treat me in that manner I am liable to say FUCK YOU, that's just me.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
16:42 / 08.01.02
potus, simply because someone brings up a (traditionally) non-white, non male point of view does not by its nature mean that someone is trying to denigrate YOUR point of view. I'll never understand why people think this. To be straight, white, and male obviously is neither good nor bad; it merely IS. But, you must admit, historically the straights, the whiteys AND the males have had a little more than their fair share of the floor, and I think to add some other perspectives to the mix can only be a good thing. Would you disagree? (You certainly can if you want to.)

I guess some of the things that pose a little discomfort for me in your post are the presupposition that one can change one's behavior in order to avoid being hassled by the cops.

quote:
Yes appearance/sexuality will come into that but much like a job interview, appearances can change the manner in which you're treated. Is it fair - maybe not or maybe so because everyone gets treated in the same way.


The thing that keeps roaming around in my behavior with this idea is the crime many African American males commit here in the States: "Driving While Black." It is a known fact that more black and brown people get pulled over by the police in this country than white people.

(and you can check it out

here,here, and here if you like. )

Now, I say to you, which you behavior would you like African-Americans to change?
1: Being Black?
or
2: Driving?

I agree with you that incidents such as the above need to be reported. And I would argue that incidents such as the above ARE being reported - BUT SUCH INCIDENTS ARE STILL HAPPENING!

I'm not saying you don't have a point in terms of "behavior" and "street smarts," I'm just saying it's a little unfair to expect everyone to be able to fit under the same banner that you can.

quote: the right to free speach and protest does not allow you the right to flaunt the law and act without recrimination. Where sexuality, colour of hair or other personality traits come into that is beyond me, feel free to explain.


I think you've all ready explained yourself on this one: quote:In instances of violence, abuse, personal theft and the like, acting like a stoner, a flaky queen who doesn't know how to avoid trouble is going to invite a degree of cynicism.

You've kind of betrayed your own prejudices here. Do you equate being "a stoner" with being gay? And how exactly does one define "flaky" in an objective manner? Are those who are straight and better-able to answer questions in thoughtful, straight-forward manner more entitled to adequate police protection than others? And what does that say about the mentally disabled? Or those who simply need a little time to process and provide information? (I know I do, but once I've processed I can provide information pretty darn well).

That statement just reminds me of the Pink Floyd line, "There's one smokin' a joint! And another with SPOTS! If I had my way/ I'd have all of you SHOT!"

Potus, I'm sincerely NOT trying to antagonize you, but I am trying to have a dialogue with you. With all due respect, I think that are some gray areas that aren't covered by the black and white solutions you propose.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
17:14 / 08.01.02
These solutions are far from black and white.

The straight white male thing was because I was seemingly dismissed because of it. Yes SWM's have had the floor too much and yes other opinions should be introduced, but does that warrant the SWM opinion being dismissed. Does that make for an unbiased context.

I know there is discrimination going on. I too was involved in a significant amount of disection of the Stephen Lawrence report.

Allow me to recount a story from a friend of mine about Driving While Black. One Saturday evening, he and some friends rented a Lexus from the rental place that my friend worked at. He and the passengers in the car were all black. Whilst driving along one of the major roads, he noticed a police car following them for a while. His friends suggested that they speed off, he did the opposite by allowing the police car to draw level and winding his window down. The police looked at him and then continued on their way.

Perhaps you can work that one out.

No I don't equate stoner with gay. I equate stoner with smoking dope, as in like I do on the weekend and I equate gay with being attracted to and sleeping only with the same sex, like gay people do not straight people.

I wasn't even sure that you could confuse the two. I wasn't aware that gay people formed a large percentage of the dope smoking population of the world. Thanks for informing me.

When I was mugged, I certainly didn't advise the police that I was very stoned at the time and thus give them the impression that I was impaired and more susceptable to attack.

Alright, flaky is a bad term but it's the best that I can come up with. I was refering to the type of person that doesn't nessecarily pay attention to their surroundings.

From discussions with certain members of the police force, I have become aware that some of them are just plain tired of dealing with yet another niave fool who walked around the wrong corner or forgot to lock their door in the wrong area.

If you have the gumption to at least act like you don't do that then I'm willing to bet they'll treat you with a little more sympathy and a little less cynicism.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:17 / 08.01.02
In Potus' defence, I think in one specific case his grammar rather than his thinking is at fault. I believe he means "a stoner or a flaky queen".

Meaning not that stoners are gay, but that behaving as if either a stoner or gay will give the police just cause to discriminate against you. What the fuck is wrong with you? Behaving like a poof and expecting to be treated like a citizen? What are you, black or something?

Ahem. Sorry. Will try to remain calm.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
17:25 / 08.01.02
>>bangs head against keyboard in frustration of points being perpetually missed<<


AAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUGGGGGHHHH!!!!

>sigh<

Ahem.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
17:25 / 08.01.02
And that's the purposeful misinterpretation I was refering to.


FUCK YOU
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
17:27 / 08.01.02
What points then, I thought I had covered all the ones you raised.
 
 
bitchiekittie
17:35 / 08.01.02
I think I see both points - perhaps what potus is trying to convey is that sometimes the mistrust comes through a persons behavior and makes them more susceptible to undeserved scrutiny. and as I mentioned before, the police are no more free of harboring prejudice - of any form - than the rest of us are. in a perfect world, only non-judgmental, kind, open, respectful, responsible and understanding people would be allowed to wield the power that goes with the job. unfortunately there are a lot of egomaniacs holding the position instead. its to be expected - not accepted, but certainly expected - that there are some who will be targeted more than others. like teenagers, and people in tricked out vehicles - idiocy and ignorance knows few career boundaries
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
17:37 / 08.01.02
Ahhh, finally. Wish I could have said that as good as you did. Wouldn't have saved any of this crap though.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
17:38 / 08.01.02
1. Because I disagree with some of your IDEAS on the subject does not mean I disagree or dislike YOU AS A PERSON.


2. Because I point out some of things I disagree with about said hypothesis means I disagree with some of the things in the hypothesis. This does not mean I dislike/am trying to personally attack/disagree with YOU AS A PERSON.

3. The desire to bring more than one opinion to the table does not mean that the first opinion to the table, or the opinion that most often gets brought to the table is NOT WORTH DISCUSSING. The desire to bring more than one opinion to the table means, in this case at least, a desire to cover a topic from as many angles as possible.

4. Wishing to hear from more than the white male perspective does not mean "I don't like the straight white male perspective."

5. Wishing to hear from more than the white male perspective does not mean "I don't like the straight white male perspective."

6. Wishing to hear from more than the white male perspective does not mean "I don't like the straight white male perspective."

7. Wishing to hear from more than the white male perspective does not mean "I don't like the straight white male perspective."

8. Wishing to hear from more than the white male perspective DOES mean (in this instance at least), "I think all people have valid perspectives on this issue, and I'd like to hear consider more of them, rather than ONLY the straight white male perspective.

9. I never said that you did equate being a stoner with being gay. I do think, however, the sentence, "In instances of violence, abuse, personal theft and the like, acting like a stoner, a flaky queen who doesn't know how to avoid trouble is going to invite a degree of cynicism " does kind equate these behaviors, (in addition to the previously unmentioned 'she was askin' for it!' nature of the above), and I pointed it out because I didn't really think that a)you were aware of it, and b) that you really wanted to be going there.


10. While I do like to argue viewpoints, I don't like to make people feel about the ones they hold. I'm just questioning them. And you're entitled to do the same to me.


Finally,

quote:Allow me to recount a story from a friend of mine about Driving While Black. One Saturday evening, he and some friends rented a Lexus from the rental place that my friend worked at. He and the passengers in the car were all black. Whilst driving along one of the major roads, he noticed a police car following them for a while. His friends suggested that they speed off, he did the opposite by allowing the police car to draw level and winding his window down. The police looked at him and then continued on their way.

Perhaps you can work that one out.


I can't work this one out. Could you break it down for me? I'm serious.

And hey, peace brah.

>>off to my padded room<<
 
 
Cherry Bomb
17:40 / 08.01.02


[ 08-01-2002: Message edited by: Cherry Bomb ]
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
17:46 / 08.01.02
His friends wanted to take the normal course of action when police are checking the Driving While Black offence which usually results in the pull over and the car search etc.

He, on the other hand, decided on a course of action that a) gave no reason for the police to pursue them (it's hard to chase a man who isn't running) and b) made himself accessible to the police.

The end result, a little modified behaviour and no hassles.

Before you call out the "normal course of action" phrase, that was his not mine. I have never been in a car occupied only by black people for the obvious reasons.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
17:49 / 08.01.02
4-7. Wishing to hear from more than the white male perspective does not mean "I don't like the straight white male perspective."

I just felt like my opinion was entirely dismissed, mainly by Haus.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
17:56 / 08.01.02
Ok, I hear what you're trying to say, but surely you don't assume that ALL black people everywhere follow course of action a) and if they followed b) they wouldn't be stopped?

Also, what are the obvious reasons for not being in a car full of black people? Because I don't know what they would be. Other than perhaps, "I don't know any black people."
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
18:07 / 08.01.02
As I said before "normal course of action" was his phrase not mine.

I'm just the messenger on that one.

The obvious reason that I can't be in car only occupied by black people because I am white.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
18:10 / 08.01.02
quote:Originally posted by StrWM no problems/potus:


The obvious reason that I can't be in car only occupied by black people because I am white.


WHAT???

Oh, do you mean, "I can't be in a car occupied only by black people because I am white," as in, "I can't be in a car occupied only by black people because then it becomes a car occupied by both ebony and ivory?"


Surely that's what you meant. Duh.
 
 
NotBlue
18:13 / 08.01.02
<Paraphrasing> "Police are scum". Yes and all Scots are alcoholics and all black men have "rhythm".

I know a few police officers, some of them are good human beings who want to make the world a better place, some are utter cunts.

Obvious as the point may be, "they" are not a homogenous group, but hold a variety of opinions, beliefs and motivations.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
18:15 / 08.01.02
I got nothing to do with elephants Cherry. other than that, it fit's the bill.

[ 08-01-2002: Message edited by: StrWM no problems/potus ]
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
18:21 / 08.01.02
Just as a side observation - When I was 15 - 17 I used to live in Devon. While walking home in the small hours of the morning, it was not uncommon or unexpected for me and my friends to be pulled over by the police for a stop and search. There was rarely a reason to do so.

Why did they do this? I have no idea.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:45 / 08.01.02
Well, presumably you looked either black, or like a flaky queen, or stoned. Free choice.

I find the black men in a car anecdote rather disturbing. Because in general, would you start to plan strategy if you noticed a police car nearby? Presumably not. Would you have some kind of fight-or-flight reaction, as is described as "customary"? And if not, is that because you do not look like somebody likely to be hassled by the police? And if so, is that because you are not black? And if so, is there anything even a little bit wrong with this picture? Are you getting the hang of the idea that it may not actually be imcumbent on the minorities to try extra hard or look extra law-abiding, but rather on the police to treat everybody not under formal suspicion of committing a crime equally and with consideration?

Likewise, standing near people who are smoking dope. Not a good thing, as it will lead to police mistreatment. How about standing near people shoplifting? Or standing near people embezzling from their employers? Is the supposition of associated guilt the same? As we have already suggested that looking like a stoner makes your suffering a crime less worthy of police attention, how about if you were sitting at the next cubicle to an embezzler with one button undone on your shirt? Does that make you more or less susceptible to being arrested along with him than if you were spick and span?

Oh, and on writing "fuck you" in capital letters. Rarely have I been so charmingly yet conclusively dismissed, nor seen a man make such a concerted reach for the intellectual and moral high ground. What's up next? Shitting in your hand and throwing it, or just lying in your soiled clothing, screaming until you puke?

Behave like a grown-up or don't expect to be treated like one.

Duncan - I don't think many people are proposing that all policepeople are scum. There may be a suggestion that there are institutionalised attitudes within the Police force that need to be addressed.

[ 08-01-2002: Message edited by: The Haus under the Ocean ]
 
 
NotBlue
19:13 / 08.01.02
When I tried to "reply with quote" to Haus under the oceans' meassage I got an Administarators only can do this message.

But anyway.


I recognise your point,and I don't think that everyone does feel this way, but, such was the dominant "anti cops" theme so far, justified or not, majority or not, that I felt I had to put in a call for the "light side of the force" to call on a dominanty if radiacally oversimplified meme.

The call to rag on the cops as "THE COPS" as in an institution is very strong, and at the same time misleading.

I have been cut a heck of a lot of slack by the police when they didn't have to do so, along with the usual hassle complaints, so I have, I feel a, not moral obligation.

I'm not sure how to put this.

A felt debt?

To give the other side.

[ 08-01-2002: Message edited by: Duncan ]
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
23:55 / 08.01.02
I would hardly say that the story was an anecdote, not as if it were funny. I will pass on you concerns to the parties involved.

I'm well aware of the presence of institutionalised racism. If you had actually read one of my previous statements you would have noted that I did mention discussion of the Stephen Lawrence report which did deal very heavily with this.

I'm not sure where you going with the rest of it, but then again, as you've clearly pointed out, I'm stupid so what does it matter. You attemted correlations eluded me as somewhat unrelated to each other.

Perhaps if you could explain it in simpler terms I may be able to understand.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
00:21 / 09.01.02
When I had a lot less money and a car that was always on the verge of dying, I worked in a VERY rich VERY white suburb of Minneapolis. I would dread when I would have to work late on a weeknight, because it meant I woudl be pulled over by the police, have all my papers chacked and my car looked over to see what violation they could warn me about.

Sadly, since I work in group homes, I know that they are trained to perk up at anything that looks out of place, like a beat up Chevette pulling out of a driveway where all the neighbors have Lexus cars.

That being said, in all of my dealings, I realized as well that when they walk up to my car, they have no idea who I am, and might be wanting to cause me harm. So I would do whatever I needed to for them to be at ease, know that I am nothing to worry about and will be quietly on my way home.

Did I like it?

No.

Did I hate the police?

No.

Their job is to serve and protect the people with money (as much as we say different, the rich do get the best protecion and thus it shall ever be). It's the system that trains them, pays them, trains them and sets their duties that can be our problem,

Would I call them? Damn stright. Some bully wrecked my son's bike this summer and I had an officer over to take a statement and investigate the little bully instead of going over to his house and calling his father out for words because I wouldn't do it in a civil, legal way.
 
  

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