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Underground > Radio & Music >

Dizzee Rascal aka when're y'all going to admit I was right about garage?

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No star here laces

16:13 / 28.07.03

So? Anybody buy "Boy in da corner" yet? Admit you are astounded at its brilliance or be condemned to musical hell forever....

Rhythms more experimental than any of those laptop fuckers can dream of, a flow that's weirder than any contrived beardie shiznit and it's the Streets that it's street to like.

Yay!

17:09 / 28.07.03

Give me a couple of hours - only just bought it today - and then I will let rip. I cannot wait to listen to it.

18:56 / 28.07.03

Everything I've heard makes it sound fab. I might have to do this with my Mooner Boner (not as certain as my Anal Boner, but lots more rock and roll).

20:58 / 28.07.03

I'm halfway through it (bad day, stressful evening).

It's fucking immense. Just brilliant. And I haven't even bothered listening to the lyrics yet. Buy it now, y'all... this kid deserves the Mercury, no question.

00:44 / 29.07.03

I just heard 'I Luv U' for the first time the other day, and this is definitely on my immediate 'to-buy' list.

Is it not more, uhm, ragga/dancehall-ish than garage? Only heard the single once, mind.

The Natural Way

12:31 / 29.07.03

Yeah, I wouldn't call 'I Luv You' garage, either.

But it is good, and, when cash comes my way, Dizzee will be mine.

That's unless you want to do me a copy, Croydon.

Eh?

Eh?

No star here laces

10:22 / 30.07.03

It's fucking GARAGE, okay. Difficult to accept after all those years of dissing the scene, I know, but that's the troof. Switch on your radio and this stuff is all over the airwaves, coming from all sorts of producers. Dizzee has his own style, true, but it recognisably comes directly out of the same scene as Eastside Connection, Wiley, Danny Weed et al.

The more ragga influenced stuff was actually the south london yardcore sound that was prevalent last summer, in many ways. There is a ragga link in that tracks are treated like ragga riddims - you can get loads of different versions of each track with different mcs putting their own take on it (plus lots of freestyling over instrumentals on the radio).

This is the most vital, innnovative, creative and genuinely underground scene possibly anywhere in the world right now, and criminally ignored by most brits other than young (ghetto?) londoners. It's taken the mercury critics to bring it to peoples' notice, which is disgraceful in itself...

I would copy the cd, but lack a burner. If I get time I'll take it into work and run a copy off...

The Natural Way

10:34 / 30.07.03

Well tell me when and if you do. Oh, and thanks.

You know, you really musn't tar everyone on the boards with the same brush. I don't think I've EVER cussed UK garage.

No star here laces

12:54 / 30.07.03

Nahh, you're all cunts. You especially.

"I'm a problem for Anthony Blair"

Matthew Fluxington

17:53 / 30.07.03

The Dizzee Rascal is good stuff, particularly "Fix Up Look Sharp" and "I Luv U," but I find it odd that in spite of really liking it, I pretty much never feel inclined to put it on.

You guys can call it whatever you want, but it just sounds like an adventurous hip hop album to me, and in the long run, that's exactly what it is.

00:39 / 31.07.03

Flux = On The Wrong Side Of The Atlantic

Matthew Fluxington

01:45 / 31.07.03

Do you think that British people are wary of calling UK music which is most certainly a kind of hip hop 'hip hop' because they feel insecure about being part of something that to them is a uniquely black/American thing? Dizzee Rascal, The Streets - it's obviously hip hop music to me. Why fuck around with the "Garage" label, which only serves to obscure the obvious? Why not just embrace the fact that UK hip hop has a unique sound, style, and vocabulary?

07:12 / 31.07.03

But you see Flux, you're coming from a North American perspective there, and in the London music scene, what DR is isn't called hip-hop; certainly not on the pirate radio scene.

We have quite a nice big UK hip-hop scene, thanks very much. And it has a unique style/sound: cf Blak Twang, Rodney P, Roots Manuva, all sorts of acts. Dizzee Rascal also falls into another unique sound; it's not quite hip hop.

Personally, not being a Londoner, I have no idea what it is, but it's embracing far more than mere "hip-hop". Which is why we call it something else. Like set said: on the wrong side of the Atlantic.

Regrettable Juvenilia

07:39 / 31.07.03

See, I was going to disagree with Flux too, but then you said 'mere hip-hop', which is just wrong. And I have to say, while a lot of the album is clearly garage, I would definitely call 'Fix Up Look Sharp' a hip-hop record if I heard it for the first time.

Stilll... nah, ultimately I am with the Brits here. Dizzee obviously crosses over into hip-hop, but saying "we don't say garage in North America so let's call him hip-hop" is a bit like calling Sean Paul hip-hop.

And I wouldn't call The Streets anything other than "laughably fucking appalling music that proves once and for all that broadsheet music critics and cultural pundits are racist fucks who don't have a fucking clue".

No star here laces

08:07 / 31.07.03

Quite right.

Flux, to use yet another comparison - to call it hip-hop because it has rapping on it is like calling Chinese people black because they're not white.

The origins and dynamics of garage are utterly different. It was originally speeded up US vocal house records. Then cross fertilisation with jungle added big distorted basslines and MCs, but not MCs like hip hop MCs. Anyone who's ever been to a jungle night in the UK or an early garage night knows what I'm talking about - the style was of a guy ranting very fast and repetitively over the music to try to get people to dance more - "jump up, jump up with the bad bwoy sound" etc. etc.

Then it passed through several years of rapid mutation to arrive at the current form, as exemplified by Dizzee, which is really only one of a number of styles that co-exist.

Garage tracks are pumped out as instrumentals in their hundreds - most are released only to DJs and of these a few catch on and might get re-released with a variety of mcs over the top. For a garage mc to make an album is unheard of - Dizzee is actually the first person from the scene to do this.

So basically garage is electronic club music with a strong jamaican influence and in its current form is a uniquely london style - it's not made anywhere else. Hip hop is a modern iteration of US soul music and therefore utterly different in the way it's made, distributed and influenced.

09:04 / 31.07.03

OK, so maybe I meant "merely" rather than "mere". Mere suggests bad. I didn't mean it like that.

Dizzee obviously crosses over into hip-hop, but saying "we don't say garage in North America so let's call him hip-hop" is a bit like calling Sean Paul hip-hop.

This was also what I meant. Clearly I didn't phrase it in precisely the right manner.

Matthew Fluxington

12:37 / 31.07.03

I don't think the origins and influences are as important as what the album actually sounds like. It's sort of like a guy making a metal album and saying "oh, I'm ____ because my influences are ____, ____, and _____, not metal!" No, dude, you made a metal album.

So, don't misunderstand me: The Streets and Dizzee Rascal are most certainly hip hop, even if the majority of folks in the UK Garage scene probably aren't. They are FUCKING RAPPING over hip hop beats. Don't kid yrselves. Also don't kid yrself about how it's "distinctly London music" when Dizzee's music isn't all that far off from lots of southern American hip hop. It certainly fooled me - I thought the guy was probably in with Ludacris or something til I read a bit more about it.

A question: when all of the more adventurous US hip hop artists inevitably integrate/co-opt/improve on the sounds on Dizzee's album within a year or so from now, what are you all going to do? Are you still going to swear up and down that it's not really hip hop?

And: a lot of Sean Paul's recent material is at least partially entering the realm of hip hop. Please remember that hip hop is a bigger and broader thing than rap.

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:55 / 31.07.03

Yes, that was my point. "Partially entering". But you wouldn't say he was a hip-hop artist unless you wanted to sound completely ignorant as to the existance of dancehall etc.

04:26 / 17.08.03

I think Human Fly just found the US/UK difference. I would imagine a lot of kids buying the Sean Paul album consider him a hip-hop artist because they are completely ignorant to the existence of dancehall -- and don't especially care. To them, it's all the same. And, as Flux mentioned, sounds tend to get co-opted by rap production. The mainstream culture in the US isn't used to a variety of genres that incorporate a MC rapping over beats, so it's viewed as more of the same.

Matthew Fluxington

13:44 / 17.08.03

I think 'ignorant' is a totally condescending word to use. Maybe it's less that a lot of folks don't care or aren't that interested in dancehall/garage/whatever, and are simply identifying things by the context they are in. Sean Paul exists primarily in a hip hop context in the US, he appears on hip hop records, and in a de facto sense, he is part of a larger hip hop scene.

I don't see why anyone would fault hip hop culture or hip hop fans for being inclusive, but hey.

It's all just music to me.

The Natural Way

16:23 / 17.08.03

Flux, Fly and Jefe are only championing the idea of understanding the music within a broader context. Familiarising oneself with the roots, history and story of a sound is, I think, a worthwhile and rewarding pursuit. I can't work out what yr problem is, apart from some kind of nebulous aversion to *labels*. Sure, it's "just music".....in the same way football is just a bunch of blokes kicking a pig-skin around. Or something.

The Natural Way

16:25 / 17.08.03

Personally, I think Dizee's sound has far more to do with some of the more insane ragga and dancehall stuff I've heard over the years than it does with garage, but there you go....

And in the words of Dizzee himself:

"I ain't UK Garage so get used to it!"

01:16 / 18.08.03

And the broadsheets tell me his favourite album is Nirvana's 'In Utero', so that's inclusive!

I think he is a wee bit hi-hop and a wee bit garage, but mostly ragga/dancehall. Only Britisher.

And Flux, all the links you utilised to prove Sean "da" Paul (whose album, certainly the first half, is pretty fucking nice) as hip-hop, might equally be applied to reggae. But he's neither. But is, at present, pop.

Matthew Fluxington

01:22 / 18.08.03

I'm betting that within a few years the only two songs by Dizzee Rascal that most people will really care about will be (at least from what he's done so far) "Fix Up Look Smart" and "I Luv U." I get the feeling that he's going to be the next Tricky, in terms of coming out and seeming like a fully formed genius, but then releasing a few uneven records and getting a severe backlash that he'll probably never recover from while loads of people cash in on the sounds that he popularized.

However, please don't take that as a Dizzee-is-as-good-as-Tricky endorsement. Tricky fucking womps on this guy's ass as a songwriter. Dizzee has the novelty factor on his side now, but it's doubtful that his music will age quite as well, especially once all the Americans start robbing his tricks and make better songs with better producers and better mcs.

07:42 / 18.08.03

Anybody want to burn me a copy of this?

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

09:04 / 18.08.03

Its that phrase again.

And people wonder why the music bizniz is going all to shit.

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:33 / 18.08.03

Yeah, those rising album sales are terrible for business...

Eh?

Money $hot, unless you think Dizzee Rascal is damaging the music industry, you probably want to start a new thread in which we can discuss your issues in depth.

13:17 / 18.08.03

The main reason I asked someone to burn it for me is because there’s a (slim) chance that I won’t like it. I haven’t heard that much UK Garage derieved stuff I’ve liked but this is probably my limited exposure to the music, rather than anything else. No problems with supporting bands/artists I like. I should maybe take a chance and stop being so tight, but well, what’s the diff between asking someone to burn it for you as opposed to someone putting it on tape? I think downloading is more likely to contribute to falling sales. A thread on the erm.. "ethics" of this might be interesting.

Red Cross Iodized Salt

04:20 / 20.08.03

The Streets and Dizzee Rascal are most certainly hip hop, even if the majority of folks in the UK Garage scene probably aren't. They are FUCKING RAPPING over hip hop beats.

But they're also chatting over 2-step and garage beats with jungle basslines...the fact that there are elements of hip hop in the tracks doesn't mean that that's what the music is, in much the same way that the fact that there are MCs and DJs in hip hop doesn't mean that hip hop should strictly be referred to as a variant of reggae or disco.

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

09:37 / 20.08.03

Point taken. And what fucking hypocrite, anyway, I just d/l'd the tracks I could find to see what you're all on about! Ha!

Get back to you when I've had a listen.

16:53 / 21.08.03

while i think that hip-hop has been an obvious, seminal influence on garage, i don't think that they're the same thing by any stretch of the imagination, and it's clearly not the only influence.

you could say the same thing about, say, drum-and-bass or illbient or what-have-you. if you listen to DJ Spooky, the hip-hop influence couldn't be clearer if Afrika Bambaataa came up to you while you were listening and bit you on the ass, but at the same time, it's clearly not, strictly speaking, hip-hop.

hip-hop is, i think, probably the most influential music on Earth right now, and i think it will have a place in 21st century popular music similar to that of jazz and blues in the 20th - an influence so far-reaching and deep-rooted that practically everything is shaped by it in some profound way, and so it becomes ludicrously reductive to point to any given instance and say "ha! that's just another form of blues!" i mean, sure, but if everything is in some way, what's the point of saying it?

08:30 / 10.09.03

...and then the boy goes and picks up the Mercury. Good for him; quite glad, really - it's a Mercury that makes sense. I think. Maybe.

09:26 / 10.09.03

Cool! He deserved it. He didn't get it cos he deserved it, he got it cos the judges are scared of him, but yeh, he deerved it all the same...

But why was he wearing such a bad jacket??

09:53 / 10.09.03

That's the thing: he did deserve it. The Mercury's always awkward as there are several bands who'd probably get it fairly, one or two who deserve it, and one or two token nominations. So to choose Dizzee, scared of him or not, makes sense: he deserves it, he's (in my eyes) at one of the bleeding edges of UK music, and he's probably the person on that list who could do with £20k the most.

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:10 / 10.09.03

Middle England reacts...

"Coldplay should have won their alum is by far best this year! It's time the best artist gets the award. Urban music gets to much coverage, whereas people making real music are pushed to the side!"
Creena, Isle of Man

"I've never really set much store in the Mercury's, and with yet another undeserved winner preducing sub-standard unlistenable tosh it's going to stay that way..."
Rob Lynch, Oldham, England

"The Darkness deserved to win, there is too much coverage of rap, and urban music, and it's not like it's anything new or different, whereas the Darkness are!"
Katy, England

Granted, there are some positive comments in there too, albeit out-numbered by pseudo-racist mutterings about political correctness, accusations of elitism (eh?), and more bizarro suggestions that The Darkness are bleeding-edge innovators (and hey, I like 'I Believe In A Thing Called Love', but...).

Go Dizzee.

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