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Babylon 5

 
  

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Chubby P
09:37 / 23.07.03
I loved Babylon 5 when it was first on TV and faithfully followed it from the beginning! It was one of the greatest sci-fi shows on TV that never got the viewing figures it deserved. Politics, Action, Adventure, Vorlons. I've seen nearly all the episodes (apart from the one when Sheriden got tortured and all my friends declared it one of the greatest episodes ever! Grr!) and loved the story.

Anyway I was in HMV the other day and on the side was Series 1 boxed set for £25. I remember Series 1 as being a bit flakey but the last 4 episodes blowing my socks off! I snatched it up and started watching it in earnest last night. I'm 5 episodes in now and theres a few things I've noticed.

1. Its better than I remember! This time I don't have the "Will they ever actually explain any of these mysterys?" since I know they WILL get explained so I can sit back and enjoy!

2. Series 1 was copyrighted 1993! 10 years ago! Fucking hell! I can't beleive its that old! Guess I was 15 when I started watching this then.

3. The Matrix sound effects! In almost every episode I've seen so far theres been that Matrix screach (the one that occurs when they go into the Matrix with all the green symbols flying out the screen). Its just sort of in the backing music or sounds, but its there.

4. The ongoing theme of negotiations between the Narns and Centauris. This is mentioned in almost every episode so far.

5. Infection (Episode 4) is a fantastic standalone episode! Its Terminator, Aliens and philosophies about perfection (couldn't think of an example) all rolled into one.

Anyway theres a brief summary of what I think so far! Guess I'll have to start saving for Season 2 now!
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
11:09 / 23.07.03
The pilot looks like it was made pre-90, but the series was excellent. I was a bit disappointed about everything that happened after the Shadow War as things did get a bit dodgy, the problem with JMS being the creator and producer was there was no-one with the authority to force him to stop writing each episode, which really he should have done.

Yeah, it was good wasn't it?
 
 
sleazenation
11:38 / 23.07.03
strangely I was watching some of B5 season 1 last night - lots of tight storylines, even if they sometimes lacked a bit of sparkle - the characterization is strong throughout and the dynamic of "the mighty Narn warmachine" (which was never really given much of a chance to look truly impressive restricted as it was to sneak attacks, joint attacks and getting wiped out by the shadows) versus the declining power of the Centauri was a joy to watch.
 
 
invisible_al
11:48 / 23.07.03
I remember being completely blown away when I watched the pilot episode, there was a clip on Daytime TV about it that made me sit up and listen so I tromped off to the video shop. Utterly gobsmacked, all those hints at things to come, Delenn's conversation with G'Kar, Delenn's conversation in the garden with Sinclair, it's all good.
It took about half the first series to get back to that level again.
 
 
Chubby P
12:58 / 23.07.03
Our Poptastic Ladytron of the Flowers: You say things got dodgy after the shadow war but I thought the earth war which followed was some of the greatest episodes ever. It was series 5 that was dodgy in my opinion. What happened was that JMS planned a 5 year story but since the show looked like it wouldn't get a 5th season he rolled the 4th and 5th seasons together (the 4th season was supposed to be The Shadow War and the 5th seasons was supposed to be the Earth War). He then got the 5th season at the last minute and basically had already finished the story so had to start some fresh ideas.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
13:17 / 23.07.03
i'm huge fan of b5. i faithfully watched every episode as they were originally airing, all the way back to the first broadcast of the pilot. i lived through the day to day waiting to hear if the show would be renewed. i literally CARED about that show.

i've bought both DVD boxsets so far, and it just makes me so happy to be able to relive that feeling. season 1 is a bit dodgy, but it has some wonderful moments. 'babylon squared' is a particular highlight. season 2 gets better, with the final stretch to the downfall of the narn homeworld quite a spectacle. season 3 is pretty amazing, which only suffers from boxleitners terrible hair (get that cut, damnit! was my cry every week) and stupid annoying marcus. 'war without end' makes up for all of it, though. fantastic stuff. season 4 is quite killer. the end of the shadow war was an actual intelligent philosophical resolution. it came down to brains and not brawn, and that really wowed me. the earth war stuff after IS some of the best stuff they offered. a lot of people dislike season 5, but i thought it quite refreshing. and it WAS always planned to be like that. It's like the poisoning of the well. they resolve the major conflicts by the end of season 4, but then come and stick a major craw in it with londo and the centauri. plus, it really gave JMS a chance to stretch his legs and work on some more interesting stories. 'the very long night of londo mollari' is a pretty amazing episode.

the finale, 'sleeping in light,' though, is startling, perfect, and sad. it has such an eerie quality to it. it's imbued with so much meaning and dedicated performances. it left me a little hollow inside, knowing that that was the end....
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:56 / 23.07.03
OK, the reasons why I believe B5 started going downhill when the Shadow War ended:

1)Garibaldi. It would have been quite a good arc if we were under the impression that everything he did in s4 was of his own free will. But because we knew that the Psi-Corps had brainwashed him it was extremely irritating. Combined with some extremely bad plotting by JMS (the scene where Sheridan goes to see Garibaldi to try and patch things up, and wouldn't you know it, at the same time an alien who thinks Sheridan is the Messiah turns up, how convenient! Or that, even though Garibaldi and Sheridan hate each others guts Sheridan decides in the middle of a war to sneak off to Mars to go with him to find his Dad. Alone. Delegate Rangers to it you big arse!) it's really bad.

JMS humour. You're not amusing. Allright, the Zathras/Ivanova scene is funny, but that's because the two actors were so brilliant, but the breakfast scene where Sheridan keeps chuckling to himself? Bad. Or, when you have three people trying to infiltrate the most secret and well-guarded facility on Mars, at a tense time that will decide whether they all live or die in the next 24 hours, they stop for a comedy discussion about who is drinking the water too fast. Come on!

The fact that the White Star fleet has this sudden power-down thing where they're suddenly far less super once they aren't fighting Vorlons and Shadows any more. I hear that an episode for the proposed-but-never-happened Season 6 had half the White Star fleet get taken out by a kid with a conker on a length of string.

Marcus/Ivanova. Now, I don't mind Marcus dying as such, even though I personally thought he was a great character. He would have been superfluous in Season 5 and it would have set Ivanova up nicely if CC had stayed on. What I object to is the whole 'it becoming blatantly obvious to Ivanova that Marcus fancies her ten minutes before she gets a girder in the face' and then Lennier's sudden tactlessness in more or less telling Marcus that something could be done to save her. Now, Marcus leaves in a White Star while everyone is at Mars. The jammers stopping people from broadcasting extend as far as Mars. So no-one could have gone outside the jamming range and sent a warning to B5, then caught up with the others? Or that someone at Earthdome couldn't have given them the frequencies that would have worked when they save the world? Or that it takes them a very short time to reach Earth from Mars to attack Clark but a strangely long time for Franklin to fly a White Star out past the jammers on his way to try and stop Marcus?

Finally, the graphics. Each year the graphics got better, but not this year. Take the episode with the Drakh. The White Stars are supposed to be swooping along the larger ship then quickly looping the loop to attack. Instead we have slow lazy motion from a unispired camera angle. Ivanova's battle with the Earth Destroyers made of Shadow technology, the destroyers look hardly any different and again, uninspired shots.

There are good things about season 4. The battle for Proxima, when Babylon 5 has nameless people dying somewhere far off it never works, when you get to know them, even slightly, it helps. When we see the captains of the ships talking amongst themselves it humanises the conflict. 'Intersections in Real Time' is really good. 'Deconstruction' I'm less keen on, because I don't like what it has to say about people, even if I have to admit it's probably true. As a piece of drama it's brilliant, the scenes with the monks is wonderful.
 
 
andy kabul
12:32 / 24.07.03
At the time Bab 5 first appeared on British TV I was going through an 'I hate film and TV sci-fi' phase. I didn't start watching it until some point in the second series where I was blown away by it. In terms of drama (or melodrama, perhaps) there was a real sense of mystery as to where the story was heading. A bit different from the cosy Star Trek world where you knew nothing would be done to endanger the franchise.
The endings of seasons 2 and 3 still give me the shivers. Could you imagine Jean Luc Picard commandeering a couple of nukes and committing a heroically explosive suicide. That wonderful uncertainty as to what might happen, in my view, is not only what made it so enjoyable, but is also indicative of a very tightly plotted creative unity that most TV sci-fi opts away from. So much of the current crop of TV sci-fi just wants to be Star Trek in terms of franchise and merchandising; it's all so open-ended. Babylon 5 wasn't; there was always an ending on the horizon.
And then there were seasons 4 and 5.
I got so into Bab 5 that I taped them all, and for a couple of years I'd do the 'watch the lot' thing, and realised that, for all that I loved the show, there were some truly cringe worthy moments in it. The dialogue at times was so hackneyed, the messages so obvious, and then there was season 5.
In my view Season 5 should never have been made; it's so bleeding redundant. All the hanging sub-plots were resolved badly. The show pisses about as trying to find filler material, resorting to the Guest Star Writer ploy and the Small People Viewpoint Tale. Nothing was added, and then there was Crusade.
I'm sorry, bringin up all this negative repressed material has left me unable to go on with this rant.
Still, Seasons 1 to 3 were good.
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
12:43 / 24.07.03
So many great moments.

G'Kar, under the impression that the Centauri emperor intended to apologize to the Narn people, buys Londo a drink. Londo gulps down said drink with an agonized look - he knows the Shadows are attacking Narns on behalf of the Centauri at that very moment.

Etc. Etc.
 
 
sleazenation
14:16 / 24.07.03
Alot of the criticisms that are heaped at the door of season 5 are kind of inherant in B5's structure - it is peace-war-peace the things we see in the peace serve to further underline and enrich the action-packed moments of war.

to put it another way, the point of Babylon 5 is not the war - it's evolution - the crisis that sparks that evolution is the war - season 5 is the exploration of the results of that evolution...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:47 / 24.07.03
I never watched any of Babylon 5 when it was on, as I'm generally not that interested in any of that tedious Star Trek type TV sci-fi shite. I was aware of it but it more or less passed beneath my radar, a bit like Ground Force or the Antiques Roadshow might.

However, my girlfriend just bought the season one box set and we started watching it at the weekend. I'm now completely hooked on it, and must watch at least 2 episodes a night. Just impressed by the insane scale of it, and the character & world building that develops in each episode. I'm halfway through season one already. It's brilliant when you discover something as interesting as this that you somehow managed to completely overlook at the time.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:50 / 24.07.03
"How will this end?" "In fire."

"What do you want?"

"Who are you?"

"Mr Garibaldi!"

"Hello old friend." (Everyone, ten minutes after they'd met someone, was their old friend)

"No dictator, no invader, can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power: governments, and tyrants, and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson, once... we will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years we will be free!"
 
 
Seth
17:43 / 24.07.03
What exactly is the draw with this show? I've spoken to so many people who swear by it, but every episode I attempted to watch made me cringe. The standard of acting, script, effects and sets made it practically unwatchable. Is there a pay-off?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
18:47 / 24.07.03
Yes. HTH.

Do you like sci-fi? If you do, then the only real bone to pick is with the scripts, where JMS sometimes looses all ability for dialogue and 'does the Kessel run in twelves parsecs'. Otherwise, it works on a larger scale than Star Trek, here stuff is set up in one episode that is not resolved until later that year, or three years down the line. Problems aren't solved by activating the deusexmachinatron but by using at least a little brain power, or failing that shooting it until it drops.

Watch 'The Coming of Shadows', 'In the Shadow of Z'Ha Dum', 'The Long Twilight Struggle' or 'Comes the Inquisitor' from season 2, they show some of the best work from that year (although 'Shadow' is very continuity reliant).
 
 
Seth
18:54 / 24.07.03
Not really a larger scale than Star Trek, to be honest. DS9 had a pretty good handle on developing continuity and galaxy-sized storylines. But they could do it with decent acting and characterisation. Maybe I'll just have to wait twenty years until all the downsides make it look as quaint as Blakes 7.
 
 
Saint Keggers
19:22 / 24.07.03
And then the was the short lived Crusade(r?) spin-off which was a weak concept filled with both great and horrid characters. That was a show that could have neared B5 in quality if only it had been given enough time. The technomage made that show. (I only bring up this show because its been so damn long since I've seen B5 that I cant remember most of what made it good or bad.)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:43 / 24.07.03
The technomage was brilliant - we haven't had a camp welsh Merlin since Excalibur, yet another of the many sources JMS nicked from. See also the Rangedi and the Lord of the Rings pretty much passim.

But the true glory of Crusade is, of course, that Jack FUCKING Killian was captain of the ship.

"Goodnight, cure for the Drakh plague....wherever you are."
 
 
sleazenation
23:26 / 24.07.03
Not really a larger scale than Star Trek, to be honest. DS9 had a pretty good handle on developing continuity and galaxy-sized storylines. But they could do it with decent acting and characterisation. Maybe I'll just have to wait twenty years until all the downsides make it look as quaint as Blakes 7.

sorry but B5 was large scale arcs and galaxy sized continuity when DS9 was still piss poor and desperately searching for a purpose.(which is not to say i dislike DS9 as it became watchable sometime after series 3...)

B5 has many faults but IMO charicterization is not among them - favourite moments?

during the first season some ambassadors are still getting used to some elements of natural history (yeah ike you know all the native creatures of your own country, let alone anyone elses...)

Londo: What is that creature the earthers have? Webbed feet... goes quack
Vir: Cats?
Londo: Yes... - this is like being nibbled to death by cats...
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
00:37 / 25.07.03
I loved DS9, but B5 had a far larger scope. The B5 back story begins 1000 years in the past, and one episode tracked the B5 universe until Sol went nova.
 
 
Seth
05:24 / 25.07.03
Oh, absolutely - DS9 was made up on the fly. It had no pre-planned story-arcs to begin with, but as of season two they were already retconning (in fact, a lot of what would become essential long-term was started in the polit). There's no argument that B5 pobably has a larger scope, but the criticisms about Trek not taking risks or being purely episodic with no ongoing development can only really apply to Voyager and Enterprise (OS never netted huge ratings; TNG took a few dodgy years to become a phenomenon, it was definitely not a dead-cert success).

It's reactionary to say that B5 is everything that Star Trek isn't, in exactly the same way as it's reactionary to say that Firefly is everything Star Trek isn't (something else I've heard claimed over the last week). There's not a world of difference between any of these shows, each is built using the same set of conventions, the same stock characters. It's how these elements are used that makes the difference. And at the moment Trek ain't using them well at all.

Do they ever repeat B5?
 
 
Chubby P
07:51 / 25.07.03
After reading this thread I've just remembered another reason why Babylon 5 is great! Character evolution! Don't want to spoil it for anyone who may be seeing it for the first time but friends become enemies, enemies become friends, people die, people "evolve" and the characters at the end of 4 years are a long way away from where they began! And that is why Babylon 5 was brilliant!
 
 
andy kabul
08:17 / 25.07.03
Another reason Bab 5 is great: it was out and out unashamed space opera. Everything from plot to character arc to incidental music was grandly melodramatic. In fact, someone should turn it into an opera. Like the Ring Cycle (Wagner, that is) it deals with the cosmic theme of one age passing and a new era being born, as well as with the more personal themes of love, friendship and betrayal.
I have this lovely image of G'Kar and Londo, during the mind-rape sequence, G'Kar's accusing bass vocal over Londo's pleading tenor.
Yep, today I will be mostly imagining 'Babylon 5 - The Opera.'
 
 
Cherry Bomb
09:10 / 25.07.03
I'd never really watched B5 when it was on but have now been thoroughly indoctrinated and I really love it. I still have no idea which season is which, other than the "...it failed" beginnings which occasionally give me a clue, but it seems pretty clear to me that alot of the characterization is very good and the storyarcs seem quite well-planned to go over a variety of seasons.

I think my favorite B5 moment is when De'lenn (sp?) has trouble with her hair and has to go to Ivanova for shampoo advice...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:23 / 25.07.03
What exactly is the draw with this show? I've spoken to so many people who swear by it, but every episode I attempted to watch made me cringe.

I'd seen the odd episode of it on the sci-fi channel and always thought it looked pretty shit, bad sets and b-movie actors on a space station. Never really understood why the girlfriend raves about it so much.

Now I swear by it, and its entirely down to watching them in sequential order. I think you have to start with episode one and watch them all in order for it to work.

The things that sustain my interest are the slow boil of the larger arc, the way each character is developed a little further episode by episode, the sudden dramatic payoff points in the narrative that change everything. Also, in the first season, the sense that you have all these people going about their day to day lives and duties on this space station, but occasionally it's hinted that there are these massive cosmic scale things going on elsewhere that will effect all of these people you're getting to know in drastic ways, but for now they are entirely unaware of any of it. The sense that lots of other important stuff is going on that you're as much in the dark about as the characters.

I'd say it's worth gambling £25 quid on at any rate.
 
 
sleazenation
10:05 / 25.07.03
Where can i buy season 1 for £25 - i looked in HMV on bond street and it was still 45 odd quid there...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:41 / 25.07.03
I was just going from the first guys post, although amazon have currently got it for £33 which isn't bad.
 
 
Chubby P
13:44 / 25.07.03
The £25 copy I bought was the only one in the shop (Cribbs Causeway, Bristol) I saw. It was just on the end of a random isle with a few other random DVDs. The problem with HMV is that if you search for a DVD in the alphabetasised section it will be full price but the same DVD could be in the sales section at a bargain price. Its very frustrating!

Play have it for £33.99 and that includes postage and packaging.
Click Here
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:50 / 26.07.03
Sleaxy - I have Season 1 if you want a long-term loan - got some duplicates also for gifties - will have a rummage.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:20 / 26.07.03
Damn you people. I've been avoiding this thread for days in the knowledge that I'd be aching to watch B5 after reading it and you've really done it now.
 
 
sleazenation
12:36 / 26.07.03
for all those who are currently b5less here is the link to the lurkers guide to b5 complete with synopses and analysis for each episode...

enjoy
 
 
Panic
13:36 / 26.07.03
Haus sez upthread: But the true glory of Crusade is, of course, that Jack FUCKING Killian was captain of the ship.


No. The glory is that Sheriff Lucas Buck is the captain of the ship.

I kept waiting for him to beat someone to death with a shovel.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:42 / 26.07.03
At the risk of restarting the Market Place, I currently have UK videos of seasons 1 and 2, plus the original pilot version and In the Beginning which I don't need. I don't particularly want to go to the extensive hassle of working out how to use EBay so I can get ripped off by some little nerk, so if any Barbeloid wants to make me an offer... (and, as the DVD sets get released, the later corresponding series will obviously become available too)
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:26 / 31.01.04
If you go to Za'ha'duum, you will die.

Fucking hell, just finished watching the season 3 DVD. When, in Valen's name, does season 2 get released over here, and why am I only discovering the majesty of this series 8 years after it was broadcast?
 
 
sleazenation
16:44 / 31.01.04
dude, season 2 is already out - season 4 will prolly be out in the UK around may-june 2004 while season 5 will be out in time for christmas - following the 5 seasons will be a further 2 boxed sets one comprising of the B5 TV movies and one feturing all 13 episodes of crusade the B5 spin off series...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
21:57 / 31.01.04
typo on my part, I meant when is season 4 out.
 
  

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