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Preacher: Reactionary crap or not?

 
  

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TroyJ15
03:57 / 13.04.04
Preacher's appeal was in its concepts of honor and loyalty. Loyalty to your friends, your country, your woman, your lifestyle, your beliefs, and your convictions. To me that's why I love the series, because it kinda says determination to keep ones word and to never let go of that certainty that what you are doing is right is most important of all.

Now this is a backhanded complement because religious wars have seen mindless bloodshed for these same reasons...but in Garth's world it's a different level of loyalty that creates the Jesse Custer archetype. And it's also a love letter to what America is ideally supposed to be (notice I did not say what it is), and being an American that's fine with me.

Now with that said most of the stories after War of the Sun are little meandering and just mean-spirited (when Grandma gets blown to hell in "Until the End of the World" it's time to celebrate, but it borders on "not even amusing" later in the series when every other visual gag involves the anal penetration of a farm animal).
 
 
wicker woman
04:54 / 13.04.04
i think its unfair to say claim that goths get beaten up in preacher for simply being goths, i seem to remember les enfants du sang only get beaten up after they try and kill everyone in the graveyard, its not like jesse and co are hanging around beating up people justifying it 'cos there fucking gofficks innit' In fact one of the main themes of preacher is not judging people on what they look like.


Couldn't agree more, and would in fact add that this invalidates quite a few of the so-called arguments so far. I had a longish post detailing each of the people Jesse had a hand in killing throughout the series, either directly or indirectly, but lost both my connection and the post just before I hit post.

But to summarize, he was directly responsible for 11 deaths (Jody, Si Coltrane, the guards outside of Masada, Frankie the Eunuch, the leader of Les Enfants, Odin Quincannon). It could be easily argued that all of these people deserved what they got, with the possible exception of the guards. Odin really was a mercy killing; he'd been struck by lightning, had a major artery in his wrist severed by the blowback from a gun, and obviously had some internal bleeding going on.

Besides which, Jesse didn't kill him because Odin was fucking a large pile of meat, he killed him because he had just attempted to blow up an entire town full of people. That, and he belonged to the KKK. So to hell with him.

Jesus deSade deserved every inch and more of the savage beating that he recieved, and I would be really interested in hearing the arguments of anyone that would say he didn't. The man was making porno movies involving exceptionally young children. In fact, it was made very clear before the discovery of the child that Jesse had no problem with deSade's other sexual proclivities.

Si was a mass murderer who was storing people munchies in his fridge and who tried to kill Tulip and Cassidy.

Jody? What an asshole. Frankie? Outside of torturing Cassidy, he would've killed Jesse had Jesse not killed him first.

Anyway. The last issue of this series was absolutely brilliant. Seeing Cassidy watch the sun come up was beautiful. I'm kind of surprised that no one has mentioned the couple of Vietnam flashbacks that cropped up; those were some definite highlights.
 
 
eddie thirteen
07:27 / 13.04.04
Okay...dude? It's important to remember that the people we are talking about here are not real people. If the crazy goth kids and the gay/French child molester and the meat-fucker and all the rest of them were real, then yes, their deaths would be justifiable, okay, and completely devoid of moral consequence. However, these are NOT real people, and are, in fact, the product of Ennis' worldview, as portrayed by the comic. It's one thing for Jesse to say that he has no problem with someone's sexuality, and another for Ennis to consistently equate anyone who strays from the norm (unless eating pussy is to be taken as a bold stab at male sexual liberation, and not merely an incredibly common practice...anyway, if it's not, me and pretty much every other guy I know is a total freak) with deviance and/or evil, which...um...he does. Because Ennis chose to make the gay evil dude a child molester, the psycho cop and the serial killer guy also gay, Starr essentially gay, the two sex detectives or whatever that was about gay, etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum. Really, the only character who remains wholly sympathetic and exudes even the barest whiff of anything other than straight ahead, red-blooded heterosexuality is Tulip's college friend, and that's both reading a fair amount into text and, presumably, okay, because she's...y'know...a sexy girl. In this regard, the line between Ennis and Chuck Dixon is creepily slim, and Preacher is an extremely conservative series. I hate to belabor this point, but it's the one thing I really, really loathe about the series, and you kinda have to be blind to miss it, since it's in, y'know, every damn story.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:37 / 13.04.04
Well, in the Preacher letter pages, before they were overrun with 'hilarious' impressions of white trash by middle class comics readers a few people were taking Ennis to task and I clearly remember him saying that John Wayne was in there because of his status as playing the iconic cowboy, not because there was anything admirable about the political worldview of the man. He also said that you weren't necessarily supposed to like Jesse Custer or what he stood for. Unfortunately the letters pages got stopped and everything from Salvation on reads like we are supposed to applaud everything Custer does and stands for. Because by the end Custer is supposed to be the iconic cowboy, which I believe is not what Ennis was aiming for when he started the comic.
 
 
kid entropy
13:50 / 13.04.04
he is irish though,so bound to be a violent bigot wino.jokes.naw,preacher was good fun when it was comedy,in comedy i say give everyone a smack.what i took from the end of preacher,when jesse cried and said 'guess i'm learnin' or somesuch,ennis was saying being a brash young stud with the certainty of youth is fun,but then it dovetails into ego missions,obsessive quests,etc.then they purge alot of that shite,and are all set to grow up by the last 2 or 3 pages...growth we'll never see.it was a good summertime read though,out back with a beer.lazy,friday night gusto.there's worse things.and if ennis' worldview offends,get yours out and bludgeon us for 6 years with it.topic for another thread...are all the complex global babies of barbelith too fair and evolved to write a cheeky yarn?my da's from glasgow and grew up seduced by the american myth also.if you look at preacher as more personal it works,the alchemy of the sick,dissolute mick being burnt up as the cowboy gets his girl and the sun.an attempt at health with jokes.entirely forgivable.i'll be reading that 12 parter about the friends in different cities.see if he's made a leap forward.
 
 
diz
13:52 / 13.04.04
I mean, as a guy, I think it's a bit self-defeatist and pitiful to just say Fuck Patriarchy (though I'd like to see it on a Zippo),

why is saying "Fuck Patriarchy" self-defeating if you happen to have a penis? this isn't an us-vs-them thing.

because where does that leave, y'know, half the people on the planet?

it's absurdly reductive to assume that all men on the planet share the same concept of masculinity and gender roles. the specific model of patriarchal masculinity here applies primarily to American and to some extent European men. not to say that there aren't other patriarchal cultures, but the particular strain of patriarchy Ennis celebrates is culturally-specific. my point is that it's naive and kind of offensive to try to pretend that Jesse and Cassidy aren't just two heads of the same hydra, and to try to pass Jesse off as acceptable or even laudable simply because he's not as overtly bad as Cassidy.

There damn well better be something in that junkheap that's worth salvaging, because I just don't believe that for most of recorded human history we've just been doing *everything* wrong.

i really don't think that any system that builds itself primarily on hardline essential binary sexual difference is very workable going forward. not to say that biological sexual difference doesn't have a place, but i don't think it will continue to be the primary organizing principle of society.

And I certainly don't believe the world would be in any better shape if we'd come out of a matriarchal society. Visit some old school feminists teaching at any local university and I think you'll find that women can be every bit as rigid, closed-minded and sexist as men. It's kind of a relief.

i'm not sure why you assume that the only alternative to patriarchy is matriarchy.

Preacher's appeal was in its concepts of honor and loyalty. Loyalty to your friends, your country, your woman, your lifestyle, your beliefs, and your convictions. To me that's why I love the series, because it kinda says determination to keep ones word and to never let go of that certainty that what you are doing is right is most important of all.

personally, looking at the Bush White House, i think a lot of people could really stand to lose a bit of the certainty that what they're doing is right. the frontier spirit has outlived its usefulness in a world where everyone functions in densely networked, interdependent global systems of commerce and communications.

it's also a love letter to what America is ideally supposed to be (notice I did not say what it is), and being an American that's fine with me.

i'm not sure his ideal America is really terribly appealing to me, frankly. it looks suspiciously like the beer-swilling, back-slapping hetero male bullshit i was happy to leave behind in New Jersey. this may be the source of my dissatisfaction with the series.

i will admit that the series has made me absolutely howl with laughter, though that happened less and less frequently as time went on and the buggery jokes got more and more tedious. the Angelville arc is one of the most horrifying things i have ever read in comics. it makes me want a Zippo that says FUCK COMMUNISM, but i'm a consumer whore like that.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:54 / 13.04.04
The 'cowboy as model for life' is unhelpful because it works on the principle that there is a wilderness to be conquered, that the land must be beaten down and the savages brought to heel. In real life it brings nothing but problems, in 'Preacher' it works. Whether that matters in a story with Angels, Gods, Saints, Devils and a man with a face like an arse is something else...
 
 
PatrickMM
23:00 / 13.04.04
I'm rereading the series right now (which is what prompted the thread bump), and I'm through Dixie Fried right now.

With regards to Cassidy, while all the stuff in All Hell's a Comin' was the turning point, there's foreshadowing throughout the series that Cassidy isn't really the friend that he appears to be in the first three trades. He basically burns through people, using them up, and then discarding them, the woman at the end of the series is the person who got the worst of it, though the Voodoo guy from Dixie Fried, and the woman with the eye patch in Dixie Fried were similarly mistreated. Still, it was an example of Ennis' usual tricks, to have him hitting a woman be the thing that finally turned Jesse against him.

I'm not sure if this true for everyone, but I know as a TPB reader, the entire pace of the series is thrown off by the Ancient History trade. The first three trades are generally considered the best, and then you usually hear people say that the series came back with War in the Sun, before going south. If you remove the specials, however, there's only six issues between Proud Americans and War in the Sun, and while it's not as strong as the two previous trades, the stuff in Dixie Fried is still pretty solid. But, when you put in the Saint of Killers piece, which is long and pretty weak, and then Good Ol' Boys and Arseface, it leads the perception that the series is dragging, and you lose all of the momentum that came off the France storyline. Obviously, this wasn't true back in the original issues, but I'd imagine a lot more people have read the trades than the issues.

And, I'm consistently impressed by Dillon's ability to capture facial expressions, and make his characters "act." Preacher has a lot more dialogue scenes than your average comic, and Dillon makes them consistently interesting through his facial expressions. You don't even have to read the dialogue to understand what the characters are feeling, that's the mark of a great artist.
 
 
eddie thirteen
00:15 / 14.04.04
As to the pacing of the trades vs. the pacing of the series, I read Preacher as singles till...well, up to about Dixie Fried, and...nope. The France storyline is drawn out to a painful degree, and probably reads better all at once than it did in monthly installments; I would suspect the same holds true for the rest of the series. Somewhere in the second year Ennis just kinda wrote off cliffhangers altogether (vs. the first year, where you're given no exit at all -- which is good), and it all got reeeeally slow.

The Ancient History specials were, as far as I can tell, written exclusively to milk cash out of the readers, and the only one that really bears any relevance to the series as a whole is the Saint of the Killers mini. Though Blood and Whiskey is some very funny shit.

I wanna stress, by the way, that I did enjoy Preacher a lot -- mostly. Honestly, if it hadn't been coming out through Vertigo when it was, I don't know if this kind of scrutiny would even occur to people...in a way I mean to be neither complimentary nor damning, it's a pretty moronic comic. Looking at it for what it's "saying" is sort of like trying to find the true meaning of Orgazmo -- it's not to say there isn't one, but the time could probably be better spent analyzing something with loftier goals than making you laugh at this month's ass joke. If people didn't associate it with things like Sandman, The Invisibles, etc., that do invite serious criticism, I kinda doubt anyone would think twice about its themes. And when you start poking around in something that's meant to be funny and dissecting it, you're setting yourself up for people to call you humorless, which makes criticism of this kinda work a slightly risky prospect.

That said, if we're meant to regard Jesse's stance on life with irony, Ennis does a very good job of disguising it.

Um...back to patriarchy and matriarchy some other time. Deadlines. Probably should be a whole other thread, too.
 
 
wicker woman
05:20 / 15.04.04
Okay...dude? It's important to remember that the people we are talking about here are not real people.

For clarification's sake, I understand this. It's just easier to talk about the characters in that context rather than adding a disclaimer every 5 sentences to the contrary. And it's not "dude."
 
 
Char Aina
06:10 / 15.04.04
(dude isnt gender specific, dude.)
 
 
TroyJ15
14:05 / 15.04.04
"I'm not sure if this true for everyone, but I know as a TPB reader, the entire pace of the series is thrown off by the Ancient History trade. "

that's why I didn't read that one 'til the series was over.

Oh, yeah...and of course these arent real characters, I mean did that have to be understood. Not be a troll or anything but that statement seemed pretty obvious to me. I'm off work today, I think I'll go re-read Preacher.
 
 
eddie thirteen
23:48 / 15.04.04
"Dude" is not gender specific. It's not even species specific. My cat is "dude."

What I meant by pointing out that the characters are not real apparently requires some clarification, so here it goes. Simply, it's one thing to say that a person's race, gender, ethnicity, sexual preference, religion, etc., are an inconsequential factor in the consideration of that person's character when you're talking about a real person, in the sense that these things should not be used as leavening factors when judging that person's actions. That is to say, if I argued that Jeffrey Dahmer was a negative portrayal of homosexuals, and *you* argued that, okay, that may be so, but Jeffrey Dahmer really existed, well...you win. 'Cause he did. Until someone killed him, and that's fine by me.

However, if you create a villain *like* Jeffrey Dahmer -- a gay man who kills and eats other people -- you are, like it or not, writing what is in essence a political story. It just can't be avoided. And if you write a series of stories with multiple villains, and a great many of them just so happen to be gay...well, unlike real life, the writer has control over the world that he creates, and so the writer has made a choice to portray certain types of villains. And so the reader is entitled to ask what the writer is saying in doing this. It's a poor argument to say that a character's sexuality is incidental to the story when the writer makes a habit of linking "deviant" sexuality to villainy, as Ennis pretty clearly does. Jesse's acknowledgment that he *could* be read as a homophobe doesn't eradicate the possibility that Ennis is writing from the perspective of one -- it merely shows that Ennis is conscious enough of what he is doing as a writer to address criticism within the text -- and it certainly doesn't give Ennis a free pass to continue to write in this vein. Now he certainly CAN do it, and I'm not saying he shouldn't be allowed to, but it's a little much to suggest that he's not doing it at all.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:44 / 16.04.04
What's really fucking annoying is the whole "Starr likes women to fuck him with a strap-on - how GROSS! HAHAHAHA", especially when you have Jesse being congratulated for being willing to go down on a woman. Wow, Ennis, you're such a sexual revolutionary.]

Can I just say how much I love this thread?
 
 
wicker woman
07:29 / 18.04.04
What I meant by pointing out that the characters are not real apparently requires some clarification, so here it goes.

No... I understood this, too, and it really didn't require explaining on your part. Has it occured to you that maybe you're reading a little too much into it? "Sometimes a comic is just a comic."

The most telling statement in regards to the series as a whole is at the end of the Si Coltrane storyline: "There are a million stories in the windy city. Not all of them have a moral."

There actually was a big debate in the lettercol, when someone tried to call Ennis on the whole 'Starr being gay because he got raped' thing, to which Ennis pointed out that no, Starr is not gay. 'Starr' (<--fictional character!) may have thought he was 'turned gay', but that's because he's an ignorant bastard... Starr simply discovered through getting raped, that he enjoyed taking it up the ass, just with women.


In the end, I don't think Ennis was proselytizing through the characters, even in a subconcious fashion; at least not in that context. Being a 'manly man', and espousing his concepts of honor don't make him a homophobe.
 
 
PatrickMM
16:28 / 18.04.04
Honestly, if it hadn't been coming out through Vertigo when it was, I don't know if this kind of scrutiny would even occur to people...in a way I mean to be neither complimentary nor damning, it's a pretty moronic comic. Looking at it for what it's "saying" is sort of like trying to find the true meaning of Orgazmo -- it's not to say there isn't one, but the time could probably be better spent analyzing something with loftier goals than making you laugh at this month's ass joke

I have to disagree with this, I think the thing that makes Preacher much more than just a grossout comedy, say the Farrely brothers taken to the extreme, is that there is a lot of discussion of actual issues, along side the ass humor, and such. Things usually aren't played just for laughs, and that actually makes what laughs there are a lot funnier. Herr Starr getting raped is hilarious because to date he's been set up as a menacing villain, and over the course of the series, this entire facade is just destroyed. If you had your typical Sandler villain, it wouldn't be at all funny because you're expecting him to be humiliated.

In addition to this, Preacher has a lot of content that does invite analysis. Ennis puts forth an entire worldview, similar to GM's discussions in The Invisibles (not the view itself, just the act of communicating it through the comic). After reading it, you feel like you know Ennis, in the same way that you feel like you know Morrison.

I just finished rereading Salvation, and the closing issue of that storyline is quite worthy of analysis, to show the series dual nature. It opens with Jesse being used as a Nazi sex slave to Miss Oatlash, which is played for laughs, and Jesse easily triumphs. Then, Jesse tracks down Odin Quincannon, who is having sex with a woman made of meat. This played for laughs too, until Jesse steps on his neck, and kills him. Then, Jesse goes to Gunther's house, and reveals that Gunther used to be a Nazi soldier, who was involved in policing captured territory, at which point he gives the guy a rope, and Gunther hangs himself. Then, Jesse goes with his mom, and everything is closed off nicely.

The Nazi sex thing is clearly over the top, but then within the same issue, Ennis tries to treat the issue with seriousness in the Gunther storyline. The most notable thing about the issue is that Jesse just ties up Miss Oatlash, an actual "practicing" Nazi, and doesn't even turn her into the police. But, Gunther, who has reformed, and bought into the myth of America that so much of the series is about, Jesse orders him to kill himself. I understand that his acts were repulsive, but it's fifty years later, and he has shown no signs of being the person that he was. It's not a question of if he can change, he has changed, and has become everything that Jesse talks about throughout the series. And then to force him to kill himself, I think it's Ennis at his most hypocritical, and it's the most disgusting moment in the series.

I have no clue what Ennis was getting at, since he spent the entire storyline setting up Gunther as a great guy, and then in three pages kills him. Was anyone else disturbed by this turn of events? Or, do you think Ennis did the right thing by making Jesse do that?

Anyway, the point is this issue dealt with some really heavy moral issues, but then also had a man fucking a woman made of meat. It's that dichotomy that really makes Preacher unique.
 
 
eddie thirteen
19:22 / 18.04.04
I agree...kinda. But I also think it's the dichotomy that gives Preacher an unfair advantage over the critical reader, in that any time the reader takes serious issue with something Ennis has said (by implication) there's always someone who can shout that reader down with "it's just a joke, you don't get it, laugh a little," etc. I mean, that game of intellectual ping-pong is basically what has comprised this entire thread to date. Anyway, I'm not saying the book doesn't warrant serious criticism, I'm just saying that (a) there are certainly more, um, intellectual works than Preacher out there, and (b) I highly doubt anyone would bother at all if it had been published, say, by Image. Or even Marvel. Has anyone given this much thought to the Ennis/Dillon Punisher, for instance?

I'll come back to this when I have more time, but as far as the "manly" thing goes...I dunno. I've seen High Plains Drifter fifty times, Joe Lansdale is one of my favorite novelists, I chainsmoke Marlboro reds and I watch a whole lot of porn -- is that what you mean? Oh, yeah, and for a long period of time, I wore a black Stetson. Plus, I have sex exclusively with women. And I *still* think Garth Ennis is a homophobe. And I also don't think rape is funny...would it have been a big ha-ha if the guy had raped Featherstone up the ass instead? I'm thinking that would have been the last issue, myself....
 
 
PatrickMM
19:39 / 18.04.04
I'm just saying that (a) there are certainly more, um, intellectual works than Preacher out there, and (b) I highly doubt anyone would bother at all if it had been published, say, by Image. Or even Marvel. Has anyone given this much thought to the Ennis/Dillon Punisher, for instance?

I think a big part of it is the fact that it is such a popluar series, and has been read more, at least on this board, than the Ennis/Dillon Punisher. Plus, I think it's in a lot of ways, the ultimate Ennis work, and the sum of everything he does in his other stuff. Because it's an original character, and wholly original story, done without the restrictions of Marvel, Preacher is the best way to see Ennis' worldview, and by looking at a world you created, you can best analyze his ideas.

But, I do see your point, at times it seems ridiculous to be analyzing a series with a character named Arseface.

And I also don't think rape is funny...would it have been a big ha-ha if the guy had raped Featherstone up the ass instead? I'm thinking that would have been the last issue, myself....

The humor for me comes out of the fact that Starr is so happy to be going to a prostitute, and then has things completely turned on him. So, while it is rape in some respects, Starr does technically hire the guy, and Hoover's ineptitude combined with Starr's personality to that point brings the humor. And, I think Ennis does take advantage of the fact that men being raped is generally seen as funny, something that never applies to women being raped.
 
 
sleazenation
19:51 / 18.04.04
Eddie 13 said
I'm just saying that (a) there are certainly more, um, intellectual works than Preacher out there, and (b) I highly doubt anyone would bother at all if it had been published, say, by Image. Or even Marvel. Has anyone given this much thought to the Ennis/Dillon Punisher, for instance?


I certainly agree with A), but more to the point therer have been more intellectual works by Ennis, most of which were completed before he embarked on the Preacher. The way I see it, Ennis achieved a level of success and acclaim with his work on Hellblazer (and troubled souls etc.). This success afforded him the opportunities to write whatever comics he liked and as we have seen from his output from Preacher onwards most of that comprises of the comedic style stuff ala the pro, and most of the preacher spin offs and war comics such as enemy ace and the punisher (which is a comic about one man's war on crime). He's even managed to mix his two loves in comics like the rifle brigade.

So, yeah, I'm not entire convinced that it's because Preacher came out of vertigo that people tend to treat it, for want of a better word, more seriously. Rather I think that up until Preacher Ennis waas a more 'serious' writer – either he or his editors held his excesses in check until he earned his greater latitide in the form of his creator owned* series.


* AFAIA the DC creator own contracts of this vintage offer greater but by no means all rights to creators...
 
 
eddie thirteen
23:20 / 18.04.04
(More or less off-topic, but DC does seem to have treated its creators much better in that regard than Marvel. They even cut Gaiman in for much more of the Sandman profits than he was originally supposed to get, retroactively -- the creator-owned standards that would later apply to Preacher not yet having been instituted when Sandman debuted -- even if they didn't go ahead and also retroactively give him full ownership of the property. Marvel's concept of "creator ownership" seems much more euphemistic, at least to my admittedly limited knowledge.)
 
 
Baz Auckland
05:47 / 23.04.04
I really enjoyed Preacher at first, but like a lot of people (it seems), the last few years, (from War in the Sun onwards...) I kept buying it just so I could find out what happened in the end... I really didn't care anymore...

...but I just read the 'Tall In The Saddle' issue for the first time last month, and that just left me with a feeling that most of the series was pretty awful. "Wow! Look! More French jokes! Ha! They eat horses! Better kill them!"

I still love Ennis's Hellblazer though...
 
 
PatrickMM
15:37 / 23.04.04
'Tall in the Saddle' is just awful, and an example of everything that's wrong with the series. Jesse's vigilinate justice, justified by the cowboy archetype. Hanging the French guy just because he wanted to eat horse, that was completely uncalled for, and there's no justification for it.

Strangely enough, I think Ennis was at his best when he was just writing the characters, particularly the love between Jesse and Tulip. One of my favorite issues was in All Hell's a Comin', where Jesse and Tulip first reunite, while Amy is talking with the guy who was chemically castrated. It was a really nice, sweet issue.
 
  

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