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Preacher: Reactionary crap or not?

 
  

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All Acting Regiment
20:13 / 12.07.03
Now, it's true to say that in this comic, lots of people get beaten up for being variously freaks, artistic weirdos,poncy vampires,rightwing,leftwing.

Now if I was reading "just another western/violent comic", I'd think, ah, just another bit of reactionary crap. But something tells me that the writer is actually creating a pastiche of suchathing, if you see what I mean? I would expect this to be the case, because if you think about it, a character who wrote or read a comic like preacher in the preacher story itself would probably be beaten up pretty sharpish.

SHIT ON MY THEORY!! GO ON! BE A MAAAAAAAN!
 
 
■
16:30 / 13.07.03
No, I couldn't possibly. You're right and we're all going home.
 
 
finger n' thump
21:28 / 13.07.03
only evah speak for yo self, cube. don't go reprasentin me. foo.

chris: I'm not sure a comic reader within the preacher universe would necessarily be beaten up any more frequently than such a type would here, on parallel 0.

I realise you didn't mention frequency in your theory (which I just shat on) but I think you'll understand my comments.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:51 / 14.07.03
Yes. And keep taking those laxative opinion chocolates.
 
 
finger n' thump
17:45 / 14.07.03
Ha ha. Thanks. I will.
 
 
Bastard Shit Man
14:01 / 15.07.03
Do you remember that story where Jesse becomes Sherriff? Towards the end of that story there was an image of Jesse, all dressed up in Nazi uniform, squishing the skull of a pathetic, scrawny, four-eyes, sexually deviant genetic loser beneath his righteous boot. Jesse all cool and righteous and a grimace of disgusted pleasure on his healthy, manly, Aryan mug.

Ennis must have meant that image to be ironic, right? ...Right?
 
 
matsya
06:29 / 23.07.03
Sometimes this happens to comics i've read and enjoyed. I go back and they're really, really, really boring. These days I tend to think of Preacher as the adventures of three wholly unlikeable people, frequently punctuated with rants about what's wrong with the world these days. How to be a man for morons. Or something.

Jesse gives good head though, so that's something I suppose. ?
 
 
Haus of Mystery
10:48 / 25.07.03
Yes. I stopped reading Preacher after it became apparent that Jesse and Tulip were doomed to replay the same fucking dull argument again and again. And then fuck like rabbits and smoke cigarettes in the bath and rage against piercings. No thank yew. Jesse's uber-redneck family were the last good thing in Preacher, and that shit holds up pretty well.
 
 
rizla mission
12:37 / 25.07.03
I think I expressed my views on this subject in that there other Preacher thread.. so I'll refrian from ranting about the same stuff again..

..but needless to say, the early issues of Preacher struck me as being pretty smart, as well as cool & entertaining, so it was pretty frustrating to realise halfway through that, y'know, I think this Ennis guy is actually just a violent moron..

The particular low point for me was probably when the villianous fat, comedy Frenchman gets his head caved in with a drill in retribution for eating horses..
 
 
Catjerome
12:40 / 25.07.03
I liked Preacher when it told a fun action story and focused on the characters.

I didn't like Preacher when it turned into a soapbox for Garth Ennis' opinions and treated the characters like sock puppet mouthpieces ranting on about why America's the best, the (really generalized) differences between men and women, etc., etc. Jesse giving commentary on contemporary feminism?? Pull my other leg, it plays Jingle Bells.

For me the series peaked at the second part of Cassidy's origin story, issue 26 (I think). Everything after that seemed kind of rehash or ramble (and don't get me started on secondary characters who show up, spend several whole pages telling their entire life's story, usually with the moral "and that's why America rules" or "and that's the true meaning of friendship" and then never appear again, ever. Garth Ennis is the king of tell-don't-show sometimes.)
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
21:34 / 25.07.03
Well, I presume Jesse wasn't a mouthpiece for Ennis's opinions, in much the same way as Spider Jerusalem wasn't a mouthpiece for Ellis's opinions, he just wrote in the same way because it helped to distract everyone from the way he couldn't grow a beard half as well as Alan Moore, but you have the question in the end of 'what does Preacher mean' and I think Ennis himself got a bit confused and it doesn't really mean anything at all. Of all the characters, the only two that have a confrontation are Jesse and Cassidy, all the other possible ones, Starr/Jesse, Tulip/Cassidy, Jesse/God, God/SoK (I'm talking about the fact that Saint of Killers doesn't seem to have anything to say to God about the whole thing of God arranging things like killing his family so he became the Saint), don't happen. And I think it's because Ennis realised in the end that he couldn't think of anything for any of them to say.
 
 
Krug
22:36 / 25.07.03
The book jumped the shark a bit after the second trade. And it really waved and drowned until the last storyline. I love the ending so much that I'm willing to forgive Ennis' many misfires in there. He lost his voice for an embarassingly long time there but it felt so great when he realised that it was time to stop fucking around.

It might also be that I only bought the first two trades and read the rest of the series from a mate. I doubt I'd have managed to get to the end if I had been paying and reading.

The best moment in the series of course is Tulip's death. The worst? Maybe the "Gunchicks" issue.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:48 / 26.07.03
I always thought of Preacher as slapstick, y'know? Attempts at social commentary really seemed extraneous.
 
 
rizla mission
10:45 / 26.07.03
Registering my agreement with Flowers post. Oh why do so many long-running Vertigo comics start off well with loads of great possibilities and then just completely drop the ball..?
 
 
Catjerome
14:32 / 26.07.03
Oh why do so many long-running Vertigo comics start off well with loads of great possibilities and then just completely drop the ball..?

I've got this big generalized theory that I tell my friends about "the curse of issue 25". A bunch of Vertigo comics I like have tended to lose their way (or just become boring to me) after about the 25th issue. Books of Magic? Great, until that issue 25 with Tim's birthday, and after that the America storyline began and the book just seemed to ramble aimlessly. Preacher? Fantastic, until issue 25-26 with Cassidy's origin, and then it got drifty. Transmet? I had fun reading until about issue 25, after which point the stories all seemed to blur together and I lost interest (although I recently read the following issues in trade form, which worked much better than the individual issues - however, they still do seem to run together/repeat themselves a bit). Related, I also lost interest in Starman after the "Wicked Inclination" trade, which ended at issue 27.

(you could argue that it's more about me and less about the books, though ... "the curse of the 25-issue attention span"
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:51 / 26.07.03
And as an addendum: Garth did also write the Arseface Special which I consider one of the most offensively bad pieces of shit I've ever read.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
20:23 / 26.07.03
I think the reason most modern comic series kind of fall apart around #25 is because that's about the length that you can realistically maintain an ability to really explore new ideas with a characvter. You can see it in TV shows when you have a single writing team, or in movies, etc...

All series tend to break down into either telling the same story over and over or trying to tell a completely different story with the same people involved. Very few people get away with long runs on a character being creative, and it's usually because they change things up every 2 - 3 years, like Kirby did on his books.

I think it's why Sandman succeeded, because he did it as distinctly different novels by different artists so that it doesn't feel as much like an ongoing story as a bunch of loosely connected novels.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:18 / 27.07.03
I feel that Transmet lasted three years before it all started to go wrong, Sandman never went crap, Invisibles likewise (though i've had to read Volume Three a lot before I could say that!)...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:34 / 27.07.03
Possibly another reason is that comic book series generally lose it may be because they just aren't really expecting to last, so when they find that they are not being cancelled due to low sales they don't quite know where to go. Preacher certainly seems to be a victim of its own success, and Ennis' realisation that his audience will basically buy anything as long as it doesn't challenge their view of what Preacher should be. So, an entire issue devoted to a lengty, pointless and utterly incredible flashback about Jesse meeting Bill Hicks, just to show that Garth Ennis really liked Bill Hicks, is fine. Arseface is shoved back in despite having absolutely no purpose and his storyline limps along aimlessly. The absurd Cassidy-hits-women storyline farts its way to a limp death (you can hit women and be redeemed, as long as you save your friend's life. Again. In a manner different to all the other times). Jesse meets his mother. Which is nice.

All just a bit wank. Preacher should have finished shortly after "War in the Sun", but the money was clearly too good and the audience clearly not critical enough.
 
 
Krug
00:05 / 28.07.03
Didn't anyone love the ending to Preacher? Cassidy was the coolest character until the end of the third trade. And I agree that Ennis shat on him by giving him his awful woman-hitting origin. But his death was really fucking cool.
 
 
matsya
00:39 / 28.07.03
Yeah, there are some lovely things in the final issue, but by that stage I'd kind of got to the point where I though Jesse was a violent, arrogant arsehole, Tulip was boring, and Cassidy was boring too, so i didn't care that they were redeemed as much as i might've if things ended earlier.

I did like the wordless page after the saint of killers shoots God. The wordlessness was quite artful.

But the moral of the story seemed to be that the worst thing you can do in life is to hit a woman. So random acts of extreme slapstick violence perpetrated because of how moody one is feeling is perfectly okay, but never EVER hit a woman? That kind of macho shtick doesn't appeal at all. No surprise Ennis went on to do those fucking awful toilet humour war comics.

Still, his Hellblazer stuff was rather good. particularly that heartland one-shot. though i haven't gone back and looked for a while; suspect it might suffer from the same puppet ranty stuff that preacher does.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:30 / 28.07.03
Five issues before the last issue...

Flunky: "Oh by the way Sir, you know how the Grail has existed for almost 2000 years, protected the bloodline of Christ and controls every government on the planet to the extent that the president of the USA is our bitch?"
Starr: "Yes?"
Flunky: "Well, there's only about a dozen people left sir."
Starr: "How convenient. It would be a shame if I gathered all them together wouldn't it?"
MEANWHILE
Cassidy: "I know I'm the spawn of Satan, not because I've spent the last century taking pretty much every drug that's been invented, not because i've spent a lot of it drunk and not because I've drunk human blood and had promiscuous sex, but because I hit a woman sometime in the 30s, but I'd like to make a deal with you God."
God: "That's fine by me, I'm quite happy to do anything you want or else this story might have an unhappy ending. Would you like me to climb into this box as well?"
 
 
No star here laces
17:06 / 28.07.03
Ok, so I know this will be an unpopular opinion around here, but this is my take on Preacher.

(And bear in mind that this may be overly charitable wrt Ennis' intentions, but as we all know it's not about the intention of the creator, it's the outtake of the reader)

I choose to discount the violence and puerile humour in Preacher as unimportant to the comic's more serious themes. You can take that any way you want.

So the thing that I love about Preacher is the tension between Jesse's sense of honour, his ideas about gender and his love for Tulip.

A note on masculinity before I unpack this... Historic conceptions of masculinity have had unpleasant and oppressive connotations, but just because Jesse's conception has much in common with these historical ideas (and is rooted in them) does not mean that it can be equated with them. Ergo if you want to criticise the ideas of masculinity in Preacher, don't do so by saying the equivalent of "it refers to John Wayne therefore it must be patriarchal misogynist shite" because that is no argument at all.

Also - just because you might not believe wholesale in Jesse's ideas, or even like him as a character doesn't mean the themes aren't worth discussing and considering.

Jesse's notion of honour is something like: don't abuse power, help those weaker than yourself and always be honest.

On gender: being a man means always standing up for what you believe to be right and not being afraid of putting yourself in danger to do so.

On women: women and men are equal as people in society. This is made clear time and again in Jesse's conversations with Tulip and in the representations of all the female characters in Preacher as being capable, forceful individuals.

However, combining the ideas of honour and gender leads to the conclusion: women are physically weaker than men so it is dishonorable for men to physically abuse women and it is honourable for men to protect women from physical harm.

Jesse loves Tulip, so he does not want to expose her to harm. But he also feels that in general it is honourable to protect her from harm. But because he loves her, he also knows that she doesn't want him to protect her, and that he is therefore doing her an injustice by trying to protect her.

This is a great narrative premise because it's an irreconcilable paradox. The ideas contained in it are really meaty. We know that men are, in general, bigger and stronger than women and that this fact does impact on our notions of gender equality. We know that feeling love for someone often entails feeling protective of them. We admire individuals with the strength to stand up for what they believe in, but at the same time are suspicious of traditional notions of masculinity which are tied up in this ideal.

Which I think adds up to a beautifully messy, difficult package and one that always gives me food for thought every time I read some of the classic episodes in Preacher (which are mostly the ones with Jesse and Tulip talking, or the one with Tulip's childhood - redneck republican dad is transformed by experience of being a single parent to a daughter).

I think Ennis ends up offering some extremely positive visions of what masculinity and honour - two ancient concepts - can amount to in the modern world.

Of course no-one should want to go out and act like Jesse Custer after reading Preacher, just as no-one should go out and literally act like King Mob after reading the Invisibles.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
19:40 / 28.07.03
Croydon's on drugs On gender: being a man means always standing up for what you believe to be right and not being afraid of putting yourself in danger to do so. What's this got to do with being a man?
 
 
Lurid Archive
21:20 / 28.07.03
Jesse's notion of honour is something like: don't abuse power, help those weaker than yourself and always be honest.

Unless you are dealing with perverts, goths or the French. Germans are also suspect as they are probably secretly dickless perverts.

I think Ennis ends up offering some extremely positive visions of what masculinity and honour - two ancient concepts - can amount to in the modern world.

Dude. Did we read the same comic?
 
 
the rake at the gates
12:11 / 29.07.03
I think its unfair to say claim that goths get beaten up in preacher for simply being goths, i seem to remember les enfants du sang only get beaten up after they try and kill everyone in the graveyard, its not like jesse and co are hanging around beating up people justifying it 'cos there fucking gofficks innit' In fact one of the main themes of preacher is not judging people on what they look like.

The issue of jesse notion of honour is also cleverly challenged, he was brought up to believe women are weaker and should be protected, but compare this belief with the image of women in the book, I mean how many times does Tulip prove she doesn't need protecting?
 
 
The Natural Way
12:12 / 29.07.03
Women and men are equal as people in society. This is made clear time and again in Jesse's conversations with Tulip and in the representations of all the female characters in Preacher as being capable, forceful individuals.

And women are a bit like yr Mum and always right. Urrgh. Ennis is SOOOOO guilty and in need of a Mamaspank.
 
 
PatrickMM
03:26 / 12.04.04
The point where Ennis lost me with regards to Jesse was when he had him kill the Nazi guy in Salvation. Yes, he had done awful things in the 1940's, but he'd reformed, and he was quite friendly with Jesse's mother, IIRC. But, the last fifty years didn't make a difference, it was what he had done years back. Just like with Cassidy, I think Ennis/Ennis' characters have an inability to forgive, and accept that people can change. Jesse kills a lot of people in the book, and he never really considers that.

And about the Arseface special, it's not great, but I don't think it's that bad. The Forrest Gump framing thing is pretty funny, and, while the story is a bit cliche, it's still interesting. Though, the moment with his friend's sister yelling at him after he shoots himself was just too much preaching.

Another story that doesn't make much sense is the Good Ol' Boys special, which casts the most despicable characters to appear in the series in the role of heroes. It's completely incompatible with everything else in the series.

All that said, Herr Starr is still hilarious, and makes the book worth reading.
 
 
eddie thirteen
06:42 / 12.04.04
I think the reason why Preacher ultimately doesn't work is because sometimes Ennis is trying to "say something" and sometimes he isn't...Jesse killing people is mostly portrayed as slapstick (or, if you like, as action movie-style violence, which is more or less the same thing), whereas other scenes present violence in a very realistic, unpleasant fashion, and those characters we're expected to judge harshly -- even though what they've done is no more or no less than what Jesse has done. And I'm not really willing to give Ennis credit for irony, either; one could argue (I guess) that we're seeing everything from Jesse's POV, and so his own violence is seen as morally okay, even glamorized, and the evil deeds of people he doesn't like are seen as purely evil, and Jesse isn't meant to be sympathetic at all and it's all a prescient dissection/satire of the George W. Bush administration, but, y'know...I kinda don't think so. I think Ennis is just trying to have it both ways, and make it sometimes cartoonish and sometimes not, and that's not really playing fair. And yeah, I would agree that beat up the freak/redneck (unless it's *our* redneck)/faggot/weirdo/drug addict (unless you're addicted to a manly pint of Guinness!) did kinda seem to be the underlying moral of the story now and then, and made me cynically suspect it would be Fred Durst's favorite comic, if only he could get through all those big words.

That said, I did like it a lot more when it was new, both because I was more of that mindset myself and because I think the first year just works better than the rest of it. I first began to regard the book somewhat suspiciously with the story arc after Tulip's death/resurrection and Jesse's family (titles totally escape me at this point), where we encounter the villain guy who is gay, so naturally he also molests children, and naturally he's also French...sweet baby Jesus. I mean, can't we get an evil hook-nosed Arab in here to balance things out a little? Not only that, but the later developments with Cassidy had me wondering what the real "darkness" we were uncovering here was supposed to be -- hitting women aside, we already knew he'd shot heroin, and what stuck with me was the very real sense I got that what was really supposed to be shocking was the idea that Cass would blow his drug dealer. The horror! But, uh...since by this point our sympathies are no longer supposed to be with Cass, my feeling was that you had proudly manly Jesse kinda shaking his head over the sickening prospect of someone he'd thought was "like himself" giving a blowjob. (To think...all that time we spent going to bars, maybe he wanted to blow ME! I...I thought I knew him....!)

All squeamishness over any such possible reactionary leanings on Ennis' part aside, though, what was lame about Preacher just on a basic entertainment level after the first year was a mounting decompression that turned two-issue stories into six-issue stories, nine-issue stories, etc. Got old really quick, and there's definitely a crackle to the first two trades that you don't find in the rest of the series. Ennis got tired early on, though Dillon stayed strong throughout, I have to say.

Still...I dunno. Ennis may have bigoted, assholish tendencies that came through in his writing, and the series might have flabbed out (okay -- it did), but the book still made me laugh at least once an issue, and it did do a good enough job of hooking me that I had to read it to the end. There sure as fuck aren't a lot of contemporary comics I can say that about -- including ones written by Ennis! I can't completely dismiss it as reactionary crap, or even as increasingly aimless, padded-out crap...even though I have to agree that it was, at least in places, both of those things.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:31 / 12.04.04
The two things I didn't like about the Arseface special.

1) "So, you've no friends, no hope, no faith and pretty much every day of your life you've had the shit kicked out of you by the piece of shit that is your father. How dare you think that suicide is the answer?" Ennis really struck the wrong tone in that final scene. To say 'suicide is wrong' if you're a reasonably well adjusted teenager who's just pissed off because you've been turned down by someone for a date is one thing and then there's justification for someone calling you an idiot for thinking about shooting yourself, but in that guys position you need a more robust argument, which Ennis didn't provide.

2) I don't think an up close and personal serious piece on child abuse works in the morally simplistic, black humour, 'western with angels' world of Preacher. It becomes glib by association. At about the same time as this special Ennis released a story set in Northern Ireland, using a character from Hellblazer but there was no weird shit or even mention of Constantine. It's followed a similar line and was a much better handling of the subject.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:35 / 12.04.04
Eddie- And Cassidy's great, evil, too horrible to be revealed, crime was that he once hit a woman. That does seem to be it. If he'd drunk her blood then presumerably Custer would have been okay with that.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
12:06 / 12.04.04
Gotta say though, re-reading Ennis' Hellblazer was an entirely pleasurable experience, and is easily his best run on anything. Doesn't alter the fact that Preacher descended into horseshit, but I wouldn't write the man off totally.
 
 
diz
01:20 / 13.04.04
Historic conceptions of masculinity have had unpleasant and oppressive connotations, but just because Jesse's conception has much in common with these historical ideas (and is rooted in them) does not mean that it can be equated with them.

i don't really think that this is true.

i think Ennis is trying to differentiate between one face of patriarchy in Jesse, and another in Cassidy, and trying to say that they're different things, and that only one of them is bad, but frankly i think that's a load of bullshit. Jesse and Cassidy are pretty much equally loathsome and, like the rest of their little world, just bloated on macho bullshit. adherence to militaristic macho honor codes do not make being a traditional patriarchal male OK, and we would most certainly not be better off with a few good men like John Wayne and Jesse Custer to knock some sense into all these freaks and faggots and weirdos.

simply put, there are no "good" cowboys, and the reason Preacher fails so miserably is that it's trying to redeem all this macho crap from the junkheap of obsolescence where it rightfully belongs.
 
 
doyoufeelloved
01:32 / 13.04.04
Gotta say though, re-reading Ennis' Hellblazer was an entirely pleasurable experience, and is easily his best run on anything. Doesn't alter the fact that Preacher descended into horseshit, but I wouldn't write the man off totally

I second this -- I just re-read the whole mess over the last few weeks. It's great fuckin' stuff.

I haven't picked up an issue of PREACHER in forevah-evah, though; maybe I'll re-read it this summer. Thanks for the interesting thread, guys; I thought most of these things myself as the series was running...
 
 
eddie thirteen
01:50 / 13.04.04
We-elllllllll...

I dunno. I can't simplify things to the point where being traditionally "masculine" is just out and out bad. Question is, what does it mean to be masculine? Quite frankly, I don't think Garth Ennis is a big enough writer to answer that question to anyone's satisfaction...at least not anyone who doesn't already think the true secret of manliness can be found in old Clint Eastwood movies. I mean, as a guy, I think it's a bit self-defeatist and pitiful to just say Fuck Patriarchy (though I'd like to see it on a Zippo), because where does that leave, y'know, half the people on the planet? There damn well better be something in that junkheap that's worth salvaging, because I just don't believe that for most of recorded human history we've just been doing *everything* wrong. And I certainly don't believe the world would be in any better shape if we'd come out of a matriarchal society. Visit some old school feminists teaching at any local university and I think you'll find that women can be every bit as rigid, closed-minded and sexist as men. It's kind of a relief.

As to Cassidy stuff above, I admit that I posted without reviewing the material in question; I think the reason the blowjob-for-smack scene stuck out in my mind was that its presence doesn't even make sense on a story level -- I mean, y'know, Cassidy is a VAMPIRE. If I'm a vampire and I'm at the point where I'm going to humiliate myself for drugs, I think I'll probably just use my superhuman strength to rip the fucker's head off and TAKE my drugs. It seemed to me that the (wildly out of character) scene was included, consciously or otherwise, because in Preacher Ennis actually makes homosexuality emblematic of "deviant" behavior...I think the only villains who aren't gay (and I have to include Starr in the gay camp here, for obvious reasons) either fuck animals or are obsessed with women made of beef sides or something. It's pretty clear that in the macho world of Preacher a fella who sucks dick just isn't playing by the rules, and is not to be trusted; and, comedy or not, it's a pretty creepy fucking theme to be running through a series intended for "mature" readers.
 
  

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