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Our Tribal Roots

 
 
All Acting Regiment
20:02 / 11.07.03
One thing that always pisses me off is when people say something like "The massai are an undeveloped people", or "the aztecs were a bunch of savages*".

I think that if we are truly to all get along with each other, we should realise that all humanity is actually pretty good.

I think that we, in our western culture, are no better than the people I mentioned above, even though we like to think of ourselves as such. What's worse: a society that practices ritual circumsision with unhygeinic tools, or a society where downs syndrome kids are aborted pretty much as soon as they're conceived**?

*The word "savage" comes from a spanish root word that was actually the name of a paticular group of native americans. They recently filed a court case against a dictionary publisher for defining the word "Savage" as "primitive".

**I am neither pro/anti abortion; i am not a woman and not a prospective father.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:52 / 12.07.03
Yeah, this is just racism. Although one might try to defend the term "underdeveloped" as a description of a level technological expertise, rather than a judgement.

There is also a flip side to this in the myth of the noble savage. I remember reading the surprising fact that, proportionally, if we compare the deaths through war in western society and tribal cultures, fewer people die in western cultures. This includes counting world wars.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:20 / 12.07.03
Yeah...that whole "everyone be respected" thing works both ways.
 
 
*
15:22 / 12.07.03
savage (adj.) - c.1250, from O.Fr. sauvage, from L.L. salvaticus, alteration of silvaticus "wild," lit. "of the woods," from silva "forest, grove." Originally "wild, undomesticated, untamed;" implications of ferocity are from 17c. The noun meaning "wild person" is from 1588; the verb meaning "to tear with the teeth, maul" is from 1880.
 
 
Tom Coates
15:23 / 12.07.03
This is going to be a highly unpopular viewpoint, I fear, but I think I disagree with you. I don't think that there's anything better about us as people than anyone else in the world, but I am beginning to wonder whether or not there is a quantifiable way in which you can estimate 'progress' in society. I mean, every day we make judgments about the society that we actually live in - we each individually argue that it's possible to improve the system, look after more people (the left) or become more efficient economically (the right). So we clearly think that there are some societies that are better functioning and even morally better than others. I mean - our system (for all its grotesque flaws) seems better than a dictatorship - even if it only seems that way by a small amount...

Freud wrote a lot about this stuff, and I've been thinking around it a lot recently because I work at least partly in the creation of micro-societies - ie. online communities - some of which work really well and get a high level of debate and discussion, other ones which don't. At least partly that's to do with the people that are part of that community and at least partly it's to do with the structures and processes of the community itself... Freud's position was that as people we all have exactly the same drives and needs, but that 'civilisation' or 'culture' is a process that we build around each of us and even into each of us that gives us strategies and outlets for dealing with one another better or for handling conflicts, debates, violent feelings etc.

What i'm basically suggesting is that - on this board we open the debate up a little. Here are some of the questions one might ask - are there only two poles in this debate - between cultural relativism and colonialist oppression? Is judging other societies intrinsically bad, or is it just that westerners have a tendency to ASSUME inferiority where these can OFTEN BUT NOT ALWAYS be a vibrant and evolved cultural life? Can we accept the possibility that some societies might be comparatively 'savage' without that becoming an excuse for their conquest?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
20:04 / 12.07.03
Quote: Can we accept the possibility that some societies might be comparatively 'savage' without that becoming an excuse for their conquest?

Yes...we can. But, can our culture as a whole? Can our "leaders"? Can "our" corporations?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:40 / 12.07.03
I think that is, in itself, a dangerous idea - that we clever people can do it, but that others less clever cannot be trusted to discern whether a culture is actually or only through cultural conditioning seems inferior. In many ways it strikes me that trying to identify an entire culture as "savage" is probably a losing proposition anyway. Put another way: if we look at the recent fuss over Jeffrey John (Head Shop post on this when I feel less rancid), we see that, although there may be many great things about the Anglican church in Nigeria, it, or its leaders, seem to feel about homosexuals in a way that I feel comfortable locating as both different and culturally undesirable. Then again, so did a fair few Anglicans around these parts.

Second up, to talk about the Masai and the Aztecs is to talk about two very different things; the Masai are a surviving culture (whose current 'primitivism' is being used, of course, to sell jeeps), which has developed over millennia to the modern age. The Aztecs, as a culture, no longer exist. They were "primitive", in much the same way that the Spaniards who battled them were primitive - they are giving away several hundred years of cultural development to either a 21st Century Spaniard or a 21st Century Masai, for that matter.

And, of course, civilisations evolve differently according to circumstace. The Aztecs, despite a highly-developed (in some ways) civilisation, didn't invent wheeled transport, IIRC, because there was no need. The Greeks and Roman's didn't do anything with, say, steam power because they had enough slaves not to need to worry about increasing the work a slave could do through scientific means. And so on...

(PS - Chris, to make it easier to identify what is yours and what quoted text, might I sugest using bold tags - >b<like this>/b< - to show quoted text; there's a guide to formatting in the FAQ...)
 
 
SMS
02:28 / 13.07.03
Haus: I think that is, in itself, a dangerous idea - that we clever people can do it, but that others less clever cannot be trusted to discern whether a culture is actually or only through cultural conditioning seems inferior.

I don't think it is necessary to take this view. I believe that certain aspects of other cultures are primitive and uncivilized. I might disagree with my leaders about what these are, although, on the whole, I doubt it, and I might even be wrong about what they are. It does not follow from this disagreement or fallibility that there is no such thing as cultural advancement. It does not follow from continued disagreement that no right answer exists.

Tom thought that his viewpoint would be unpopular, because he wishes to avoid cultural relativism, but, Haus, if you want to talk about ideas being dangerous, then I think the most dangerous idea I have heard in a very long time is this one:

Tom: ...our system (for all its grotesque flaws) seems better than a dictatorship - even if it only seems that way by a small amount...

Our system is only better than a dictatorship by a small amount? I don’t really think Tom believes this. I don’t really think many people on this board believe this, either, but it is the kind of caveat that one feels inclined to use on Barbelith to avoid a browbeating.

Tom: Can we accept the possibility that some societies might be comparatively 'savage' without that becoming an excuse for their conquest?

Chris: Yes...we can. But, can our culture as a whole? Can our "leaders"? Can "our" corporations?

What would follow here is that we should promote a lie (there is no such thing as a primitive/savage culture), because it supports our conclusion (we shouldn’t conquer these cultures). If we disdain our leaders when they do this to us, what should we expect if we try to do it to them?

If we cannot defend our conclusions without lies, then we ought to reconsider our conclusions. If we can defend them, we should not weaken our arguments with falsehood.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:43 / 13.07.03
I believe that certain aspects of other cultures are primitive and uncivilized. I might disagree with my leaders about what these are, although, on the whole, I doubt it, and I might even be wrong about what they are. It does not follow from this disagreement or fallibility that there is no such thing as cultural advancement.

But surely you then have to accept that people from other cultures might believe that certain aspects of your culture are primitive and uncivilised - such as, to take the most obvious example (to me at any rate) the death penalty. You may personally disagree with it, I don't know, but it is still a part of your culture.

I think it might be useful to think about what constitutes 'advancement' or 'development' - are we talking about technological advancement? Industrialisation? A post-industrialisation service economy? Military power? A capitalist economy? Declining birth and death rates? A narrowing poverty gap? Good provision of public services? A healthy environment? Secularisation? Religious concord? Democracy? Human rights?

I'd propose that it's probably a combination of many of those things. From my particular British perspective, for example, I would say that the influence religion has on politics in the US is undesirable; that the widening poverty gaps in Britain and the US are not great signs of the 'advancement' caused by the extreme free-market capitalism which dominates legislation for businesses and workers in thsoe countries; and that democracy in both those countries is flawed in practice. On the other hand, I think that the high taxation regimes in Scandinavian countries have produced greater social equality and are more advanced in that respect. Cui bono?

I am not saying that it is impossible to characterise some regimes and some elements of some cultures as being worse than others - just that it is wise to consider one's own culture in the same light. A little humility never goes amiss.

Perhaps this is what Tom meant when he said that our systems were only better tha a dictatorship by a small amount. It can sometimes seem that our rights are being eroded away from under our feet by governments whose legitimacy is questionable; and that we are governed by oligarchies who are unaccountable and are not hugely different to the hierarchies of some dictatorships. This is of course an exaggeration; but on a wider scale of possible regimes, from dystopia to utopia, perhaps we (western democratic governments) are closer to dictatorships than we might like to think.


What would follow here is that we should promote a lie (there is no such thing as a primitive/savage culture), because it supports our conclusion (we shouldn’t conquer these cultures). If we disdain our leaders when they do this to us, what should we expect if we try to do it to them?

I would suggest that whether a culture can be characterised as 'primitive' or 'savage' has absolutely no bearing on whether or not 'we should' conquer them. Of course 'we should' not. (I am using scare quotes because I am not sure who 'we' is - do you mean the whole culture of which you are a part, or just the governing elements of that culture? Or even, just the elements of your culture which agree with such a conquest? I think it is dangerous to think about cultures as large, simple entities like this - it is unsubtle and more open to manipulation, I think).

One of my problems with characterising cultures as 'primitive' is that it is a relative term. They are primitive in comparison to us - which assumes that our cultures are, if not at the pinnacle of development, at least further along the road to that pinnacle. It's very Whiggish... the idea that we are on a road, 'progress', which consistently rises towards 'perfection', the pinnacle of human attainment. What if that conception of progress is wrong? What if it has led to problems that did not previously exist, and which contribute towards the debasement of humans? I think it might be more helpful to stop thinking of human societies and cultures as existing at different points on a linear scale, and to consider them as different forms of society and culture, which coexist (not always very successfully) but which have different attributes. We would be able to consider level of technological progress alongside the religious status of a society, with its human rights provision, type of economy, standards of living, habitat, resources, political culture and so on - a more sophisticated way of thinking about other societies and cultures, which might help avoid the assumption that what we have is automatically the best and would automatically be the best for other cultures and other people. I do not mean to deny that there are certain things which are definitely better than others - human rights legislation, emancipation, education, equality, for example, are better than no human rights legislation, slavery, ignorance, and inequality. I mean that it is a fallacy to assume that we have achieved the optimum conditions of human existence, and to deride other societies because they have not.

I hope that wasn't too muddled - happy to clarify anything if I can.
 
 
Tom Coates
11:17 / 13.07.03
I think this whole thing ties in with what I've been saying in the Religion thread about Darwinism and altruism as a basis for morality. At some levels morality/altruism could be seen to be only about maximising reproductive success and quality of life on average by finding ways of working with other people for greater benefits. The balance between looking after ourselves and looking after the collective which looks after us seems to be a crucial axis in politics and increasingly in biology too. You could argue that a civilisation that although the precise area of balance between these two pseudo-opposites is unclear, that you could measure their collective weight ie. individual/familial benefit derived from defiance of larger group = "10" while individual/familial benefit derived from integration with larger group = "5" in one society - scoring out at '15' progressive culture points, while a more balanced culture which got seven from each might only score '14' progressive culture points. One of these civilisations would derive greater benefits for all its constituent citizens than the other. That - in itself could be seen to be progress.

The interesting aspect there might be if you start trying to form lines around groups and cultures - in purely financial / lifestyle terms the US clearly is the 'best' society in the world, but it's power and comfort is directly tied to the oppression and poverty of others around the world - which might mean that taking a wider community than the nation state, globalism is a primitive, barbaric way of operating within the world.
 
 
SMS
18:52 / 13.07.03
I am willing to accept the possibility that it is my culture (or a set of elements within my culture) that is barbaric relative to some other real or imagined culture.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
19:53 / 13.07.03
I am not saying that it is your culture which is barbaric in comparison to others. I mean to be much less definite about it; the death penalty is, in my opinion, barbaric when it appears in any culture. Perhaps, refocusing what I said earlier, we might conceive of a set of things (rather than systems) which are barbaric or backward: the death penalty, lack of proper provision of clean drinking water, lack of education, lack of housing, discrimination based on gender, discrimination based on sexuality, discrimination based on race, discrimination based on religious affiliation, slavery, lack of human rights legislation, etc. We might then be able to see more clearly which societies are more 'backward' in which areas, without getting tangled up with the technological development issue.

in purely financial / lifestyle terms the US clearly is the 'best' society in the world, but it's power and comfort is directly tied to the oppression and poverty of others around the world

I'd say it's also tied to oppression and poverty within the US, to a considerable degree (and obviously that oppression and poverty is, in most cases, not as bad as that in the poorer countries on which US and UK corporations feed). The US is not an equal society any more than the UK or many others are. Its richer citizens gain disproportionately. But, as I said, perhaps its base level is higher (probably because the cost of living is much lower than it is in Europe).
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:30 / 14.07.03
I think this whole thing ties in with what I've been saying in the Religion thread about Darwinism and altruism as a basis for morality. - Tom

It depends how you mean it, of course, but on the whole I think that Darwinism should inform but not dictate our morality. We have evolved some pretty unpleasant behaviours which I would say one should morally try to curb, despite their being 'natural', in some Darwinian sense.

Having said that, one can still attempt to identify some universals of human need that go beyond survival. Freedom, both in terms of liberty and also in terms of freedom from discrimination seems like one of these, even though the details are bound to be fuzzy. Another example can be seen in the way that countries rarely justify their wars as wars of aggression, but in defensive terms - this points to some principle of non-violence, though usually a hypocritical one.

One needs to make a judgement on what these needs are precisely, and that it is 'better' that a society be structured positively for its inhabitants relative to these needs. So, there is going to be a lot of scope for judging one society better than other. But I still think that it can provide a broad distinction between different societies.

So I'd say that "savage" and "underdeveloped" have some life as comparative terms, though I'm sure we could find something better than the former.
 
 
Irony of Ironies
10:36 / 14.07.03
it's power and comfort is directly tied to the oppression and poverty of others around the world

As are all Western Capitalist cultures, of course. If the question is "how does one measure the success of a society", then the only answer would be in the extent to which the memes of that culture propagate, if you're being all Darwinian about it.
 
 
*
18:02 / 14.07.03
Freud had a lot of fascinating ideas, but he wasn't an anthropologist. A lot of his contemporaries who were had some bizarre notions as well. Freud had a theory that "animist" cultures were simply all neurotic, in his use of the term.

I do use the viewpoint of cultural relativism; I think it's the only thing we can do under the circumstances. Even if we develop a supposedly "objective" scale as Tom suggests, we have to deal with the fact that we are developing this scale from within the viewpoint of our culture. Cultural anthropologists work all their lives (if they are good CA's, anyway) to recognize and overcome the limitations of their cultural viewpoints in order to view things objectively, and it seems one can never succeed totally. The Darwinism/altruism view is no more objective than the "savage-animist-pagan-monotheist" view held by Freud and company.

Germane to this conversation, has anyone ever read an anthropological article about a certain indigenous tribe called the Nacirema?
 
 
*
18:11 / 14.07.03
The groundbreaking article on the Nacirema tribe:

http://www.msu.edu/~jdowell/miner.html

An article on a similar tribe which may share their territory:

http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/b/j/bjj6/ENGL_030_RAC.htm
 
 
*
15:17 / 15.07.03
I just looked over all that crap and god I sound self-important. Shit. Ignore me. Sorry.
 
  
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