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Contradiction, Statements, and System.

 
  

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—| x |—
20:59 / 09.09.03
This is similar to the (false antecedent --> false conclusion) conditional being conventionally defined as true: another "artifact" of formal logic that has no real correspondence with the way people reason.

It seems to me more than merely convention (‘cause we can say “convention” regarding anything that is a product of human endeavour); rather, it is an understanding of how the syntactic and semantic aspects of our language come together.

If my mother is dead, then I have no one to phone on mother’s day.

It is false that my mother is dead; thus, it is also false that I have no one to call on mother’s day. However, it is obviously true that if my mother were dead, then I’d have no one to phone on mother’s day. See, not merely a convention with no correpsondence to how people reason, but actually reflecting the truth-functional possibilities of our everday thinking!

My holding two contradictory beliefs implies somewhere between very little and nothing at all about what exists in the world (especially about what exists apart from my narrow personal view of it), and it has similar implications for the rest of my belief system.

This misses the point. Hold all and any contradictory beliefs you desire—or none at all! The idea is that it is possible (and indeed probable) to hold contradictory beliefs. The structure of the patterns of thought wrt contradictory beliefs mirrors the structure of the patterns of things in the world. This is the point. Not about you or anyone’s beliefs, but about the structure of possible believing wrt the structure of possible worlds.

Dr.~(c^2)>0 is beginning to remind me of everyone's favourite dialectician, GWF Hegel, but on 'shrooms (I mean that in the nicest possible way).

Two things: first, I get this all the time (from people familiar with Hegel)—for the last five years, as a matter of fact. So much so that I had to become familiar with Hegel so I could mark out both the similarities and differences between our ways of thinking. Of course, no one mentions the shrooms part—but they probably ought too! Which bleeds into the second thing: I can only take that in the nicest possible way, and find it difficcult to see any implied offence!

As far as I can tell your brief exposition on dialectic is essentially correct (wrt standard interpretation; however, there are those who say that there is no dialectic in Hegel, not of the form “thesis + anti-thesis = synthesis,” and that such a formulation of Hegel’s thought is a academic simplification and not present in this form in any of Hegel’s actual writing—and these folks are partially correct, OSISTM!). And yes, Kant used contrary notions to undermine the idea that such questions are answerable from our limited human perspective (I think). Like Hegel, I think that contradiction is woven into the v. nature of spacetime. Differnet from Hegel, I do not think we are moving towards some ultimate goal via a dialectical movement history. Of course, Hegel didn’t have modern math (esp. fractals) and physics to cull ideas from either.

I wanted to add that I am A-OK with the dialectical idea of "truth" emerging via struggle between opposed forces, some of which forces might amount to a contradiction in the loose sense.

But “truth” is merely in opposition to “lies.” It is itself a dichotomized atom of a dual pairing which makes no sense on its own but must manifest as opposed to something else. Same with notions of “struggle” being placed in opposition to, say, “peace” or “harmony.” The idea driving me, here, is that the structure of a contradiction is that which best (currently) shows how these dichomies play and exist. So no struggle for truth, but merely what is.
 
 
CaseK
08:15 / 10.09.03
So -- I'm gathering that we've dropped the original topic and are now just skipping around in our, pardon, _your_ exposition? Gotcha.
 
 
CaseK
08:19 / 10.09.03
Oh, I meant to add: Which exposition is not to be mistaken for argument. I'm pretty sure that I'm still waiting on the story that turns logical convention into magical spells.
 
 
CaseK
08:36 / 10.09.03
Oh, one other -- don't hurt yourself, petting your back over that "Oooh, that Hegel thing, I get that all the time." Heidegger got attention as well. It's not proof of sense-making.
 
 
Groman
09:26 / 10.09.03
Hi,
Hegel is way over my head, but I will say one thing.

Truth is not logically in opposition to "lies," but merely falsehood. I can lie to you but actually tell you true things.

Also, we're stretching logic beyond a reasonable shape here.
The false-false conditional is labelled true because it provides a simpler definition of validity. Your mother and mother's day example is good, but what about

If 5 is smaller than 3, then the Sun orbits the Earth.


This is a true conditional, but I have no idea how it reflects anything true about human thought. The point is not that there aren't true conditionals which have both parts false, it's that the semantics of conditionals can strongly depart from actual human reasoning. (As an exercise, try to convince someone that the above sentence is true.)

Getting to the second point:

This misses the point. Hold all and any contradictory beliefs you desire—or none at all! The idea is that it is possible (and indeed probable) to hold contradictory beliefs. The structure of the patterns of thought wrt contradictory beliefs mirrors the structure of the patterns of things in the world. This is the point. Not about you or anyone’s beliefs, but about the structure of possible believing wrt the structure of possible worlds.

This seems question-begging. Some work needs to be done to show that human thought conforms to deductive logic. If you don't have this, then nothing about the relation between contradictions and other propositions follow. For instance, if human thought actually embodies soundness (i.e., validity + true assumption are required for an argument to have any value), then contradictions are actually anathema to human reasoning. Of course our beliefs about what is real are determined by our thought processes, but let's pin down what those thought processes are... rather than assuming they match formal logic.

A little aside: If we're going to talk about logic and "loose" contradictions, we have to talk a common language about this. Two things that seem "weird" (i.e., light being both a particle and a wave) may be surprising, but not form a logical contradiction. If it's not a logical contradiction, then it is not true that everything follows from it.

This is how I think about it: Do the wave-particle physics equations make predictions that could be falsified or do they entail everything? That is, are there any predictions that are inconsistent with the equations? If so, then they are not a contradiction and we can't talk about them entailing everything.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:15 / 10.09.03
I share Groman's doubts about the applicability of formal logic to the way we think or even reason. Its useful, of course, but only to a degree. Having said that, Chomsky's universal grammar is modelled on logic, to a degree, but I doubt it really settles the question definitively.

Also, as Groman points out, one needs to be careful if one is using "contradiction" to apply both to common usage and formal logic. They aren't really the same thing.
 
 
—| x |—
12:02 / 10.09.03
Heidegger got attention as well. It's not proof of sense-making.



There are actually some neat finds in Heidegger, but I agree, they are hard to recover from the dross.

Truth is not logically in opposition to "lies," but merely falsehood. I can lie to you but actually tell you true things.

Lies, falsehoods—tomato, tomato, if you know what I’d be sayin’

But would I mean is that I can tell you the truth, but actually be lying to you…

Your example is a fine case of the absurdity possible via the extension of logical truth-conditions to possible combinations of a so-called “natural” language. However, it doesn’t show so much other than it is possible to push a system to absurdity, which is sorta’ what this thread is about (Universe as system arising within + without a contradictory core). I mean, we can take any old system and tease out its contradictions and absurdities—or so the Deconstructionists tell us.

This seems question-begging.

Ah yes—the circle and I are old friends.

Some work needs to be done to show that human thought conforms to deductive logic.

Oh sure. Work needs to be done all the time: nothing is ever finished {meta note to readers: try to see how many ways you can understand that last statement esp. wrt the contents of this thread; try to see how it is a single statement that contains a multitude of potential readings—each with their own sense; try to create ambiguity}. What I mean is I am certainly not claiming to have shown “all the evidence,” nor am I claiming to have “shown conclusively that….” I am merely throwing this out there—like I do—trash and treasure to whom? Which leads us from that particular dichotomy/contradiction {trash v treasure becomes trash & treasure, or P & ~P} regarding value and into the next regarding this cute little couple:

Sense & Nonsense.

To whom, my friends—to whom?!

Of course our beliefs about what is real are determined by our thought processes…

No, this isn’t the same assumption that I am making. You are free to espouse problems based on such an assumption, but they are not my problems! I am saying that there is no difference nor division between the internal and external “world(s).” Like I said before—my assumption is that mind and matter are the same, and so, have the same structure. Thus, to me, what is “real” are our “thought processes” & our “thought processes” are nothing more than what is “real.” Now, tell me what we are to mean by those quoted terms, and we shall proceed with your objection! I mean, take that conclusion {second to last sentence—the penultimate!} it means nothing, but it can mean everything depending upon how someone is able to “unpack,” “decode,” or otherwise understand it. It is both sense and nonsense—realtive to a structure of interpretation. And a structure of interpretation depends upon at least a so-called “physical” interaction with “real” things in the world—there can be no interpretation without interaction (relations) amongst “objects.” So again we see how the two are one—mind? matter?—no matter. never mind.



.
 
 
Groman
02:34 / 11.09.03
“Of course our beliefs about what is real are determined by our thought processes…”

No, this isn’t the same assumption that I am making. You are free to espouse problems based on such an assumption, but they are not my problems! I am saying that there is no difference nor division between the internal and external “world(s).” Like I said before—my assumption is that mind and matter are the same, and so, have the same structure. Thus, to me, what is “real” are our “thought processes” & our “thought processes” are nothing more than what is “real.” Now, tell me what we are to mean by those quoted terms, and we shall proceed with your objection! I mean, take that conclusion {second to last sentence—the penultimate!} it means nothing, but it can mean everything depending upon how someone is able to “unpack,” “decode,” or otherwise understand it. It is both sense and nonsense—realtive to a structure of interpretation. And a structure of interpretation depends upon at least a so-called “physical” interaction with “real” things in the world—there can be no interpretation without interaction (relations) amongst “objects.” So again we see how the two are one—mind? matter?—no matter. never mind.



I'm going to admit my limitations here and not try to present a grand theory. Instead, I'll just explain why I am very hesitant to making the assumption that "there is no difference nor division between the internal and external “world(s)." I am assuming that this is a central assumption. If not, I apologize.

Here's a couple of reasons why.

(1) First, this seems to entail that only one mind exist.

Why? If there is no difference between the internal and external, then there exists only one thing. Since it is the inner world, it is mind. So, there is only one mind.


(2) Second, this seems to entail something like omniscience.

Why?: If there is no difference between the internal and external worlds then there are no things that my mind does not contain. So, I necessary have a necesarily complete and unextendable set of beliefs. (I would like to call this knowledge, but can't because of point 3.) So, it's not that I don't have a belief about the location of my keys. if I can't find them. My keys fail to have a location until I find them because how could they have a location that is not part of my mind, when the outer world is the same as the inner world.

Actually, 1 and 2 are not knockdown points. I realize that there are ways out of these problems. You can invoke God a la Berkely or have a single world-mind that does not have unified consciousness. Do you have something to that effect to handle 1 and 2? Sorry for thinking out loud, if you do. However, I personally suspect that they amount to sneaking the inner-outer distinction back in, though at way too high a price for my metaphysical budget.


(3) This collapses representation and represented. So, we lose concepts like meaning, truth / falsity, and interpretation. In fact, I think we even loose the concept of concept!

Why?: All of these notions depend on a view where there are symbolic / representational things that represent something outside of the representational system. It seems to me that the collection of frogs and my thoughts about frogs have to be two different things in order to talk about thoughts being about frogs. If we say that there is no distinction, then how are my "experiences" (for lack of a better word) involving frogs about frogs or how could I be mistaken about frogs, since there is no distinct entity for me to misrepresent?
 
 
—| x |—
07:40 / 11.09.03
Ah Groman—I like the cut of your jib!

…’there is no difference nor division between the internal and external “world(s).”’ I am assuming that this is a central assumption. If not, I apologize.

Yes, indeed a central assumption in the tale I am spinning: no apologies warranted nor necessary.

(1) First, this seems to entail that only one mind exist.

Why? If there is no difference between the internal and external, then there exists only one thing. Since it is the inner world, it is mind. So, there is only one mind.


Yes, it is a one object universe. However, we cannot say that this object is “mind” (what is ‘mind’—what does it pick out?), but neither can we say that it is “matter.” And while the reference of the word ‘mind’ is obviously mysterious & vague, we tend to delude ourselves into thinking that ‘matter’ has a clear reference: but what is matter? Is it atoms—no, not quite. Is it smaller bits or larger bits? But we know bits aren’t really bits, and even a wave isn’t merely a wave—the mysterious “quanta.” What is matter?

So here again we find another example of contradiction interwoven into the nature of our phenomenological experience. We, on the one hand, appear to have a dichotomy that runs “mind” vs. “matter.” Something “of the mind” is not “matter” and vice-versa (we see this division in so-called “concrete” vs. “abstract” objects). Yet, on the other hand, we have the idea (or tool) presented here (and in other places both by myself, and others—present, past, and future or, in a one object universe, this has merely been uttered by, say, “Self” for all time—which, if one object also means a single “unit” of time; i.e., no time at all) that these dualities are not pairs but singularities which—due to our nature (which , in turn, creates the world that we inhabit) must divide into seeming contraries. Of course, this “meta” physiologic creates itself a binary opposition: 2 = 1, which is merely another form of our P & ~P. Which came first—the head of the serpent or the tail?

(2) Second, this seems to entail something like omniscience.

Why?: If there is no difference between the internal and external worlds then there are no things that my mind does not contain. So, I necessary have a necesarily complete and unextendable set of beliefs. (I would like to call this knowledge, but can't because of point 3.) So, it's not that I don't have a belief about the location of my keys. if I can't find them. My keys fail to have a location until I find them because how could they have a location that is not part of my mind, when the outer world is the same as the inner world.


Yes, omniscience, but for whom?

I am finding your key example a little hard to follow; that is, I can’t quite make out the intended impact. That said, it strikes me as a v. interesting way of thinking about this. If I get you here, then you are saying that lost keys are lost because they no longer exist since they cannot exist in a place that is not part of the “knowledge” of your mind (which, we are saying, would be total?). That is kind of neat. However, we are clearly living in a fog; that is, we don’t appear to have reliable access to this omniscient well. This, I believe, hinges on at least this current and readily apparent understanding of our “bodies” coupled with the typical understanding of what it is to be a “thinking,” living, but most importantly experiencing human individual. So, since we can hold contrary beliefs, let’s suppose that it could also equally be that the “omniscient” aspect of our being has a True belief about the actual location of our keys in this possible world and we, say, “the little self,” hold a False—but stronger in our individual (i.e., discrete and dissected fragment of the whole) experience—belief about the location of these lost keys.

You can invoke God a la Berkely…

Or you could pop on over to The Magick forum and see who is invoking whom this week…

…or have a single world-mind that does not have unified consciousness.

Not necessarily. I go a little Jungian here in my “grand unified system” (the system that is under construction after system building has become passé and demonstrably impossible, the system which explains all systems well it consciously deconstructs itself at every turn—thus, also unexplaining all systems, the system that will leave people reeling & diZzy). This is to say that I feel there is something like Jung’s “collective unconscious” which extends far beyond the scope that Jung allows (I think) and embraces the stars that gave birth to the stars that shine today.


"Do you have something to that effect to handle 1 and 2?"

You tell me!


"(3) This collapses representation and represented. So, we lose concepts like meaning, truth / falsity, and interpretation. In fact, I think we even loose the concept of concept!"

Perhaps: the system that shits out what it eats and eats its own shit—if you’ll recover my intending meaning from the vulgar but alchemic formulation. I call it “parapostmodernism.”

All of these notions depend on a view where there are symbolic / representational things that represent something outside of the representational system.

Nah, not for/to me. There are only representational systems insofar as there are systems to be represented and vice-versa. Think of it similar to how Relativity frames space-time: if there are no objects, then there is no space-time & if there is no space-time, then there are no objects—here we have “representational system iff system.” Or put differently, if the medium is the message, then that which is represented is that which is & that which is is that which is represented. However, here we rely on an extended notion of mind in the sense that any singular thing must be related to (represented by) another thing: no singularities (atomics), but only unified pairs, ya’ see. Universe as a wave front of information exchange. Picture: little Turing machines which read not tape but one and other, and none of which exist if there are no other machines to read.

It seems to me that the collection of frogs and my thoughts about frogs have to be two different things in order to talk about thoughts being about frogs. If we say that there is no distinction, then how are my "experiences" (for lack of a better word) involving frogs about frogs or how could I be mistaken about frogs, since there is no distinct entity for me to misrepresent?

I need to be a little quick and dirty here (like I’m not most of the time—sigh), so I’ll say: the distinction is a function of our limited (key word) perceptions (which we know are v. limited): we divide the word based on perception and interpretation, and so, the world arises showing this particular basis of partnerings (relatings) to us. It’s like a “boot-strap” thing. The Buddhists call it pratityasamutpada.
 
 
Groman
01:25 / 13.09.03
At this point, I'm just gonna say, "Uncle."

We disagree about how to approach these issues at such a fundamental level that I won't even try to persuade you to take up my methodology, which is basically a type of naturalism (i.e., a very sparse, materialist (to date) ontology driven by an evidentialist epistemology).

However, I will say this. I get the impression that you revel in contradictions, my good Doctor. I cannot accept a methodology like that.

I fully admit that I cannot escape recursion. I am trying to use my mind to understand my mind, so I cannot find an Archimedian point to start from. However, that does not mean that I am committed to contradiction. I simply admit that I have to make some fundamental assumptions in order to get the ball rolling. If they turn out to be contradictory, then I must scrap them and start over again.

Now, I'm going to go mourn The Man In Black. What a sad day.
 
 
—| x |—
01:12 / 14.09.03
At this point, I'm just gonna say, ‘Uncle.’

Ah shucks: Groman, you really are a pleasant fellow!

We disagree about how to approach these issues at such a fundamental level that I won't even try to persuade you to take up my methodology, which is basically a type of naturalism (i.e., a very sparse, materialist (to date) ontology driven by an evidentialist epistemology).

Yeah, some would say I’m a “radical thinker” while other’s will say I’m a con artist hack and full of shit (of course both sets of people are immediately right, wrong, neither right nor wrong, and both right and wrong!). I encounter this difficulty with too many people (and it really makes me sad sometimes—both for myself and for the other), OSISTM.

Naturalism is good, but then we have to get into the murky mire of what is to count in our category of “the Natural.” I tend to place any possible manifestation of phenomena in the category of being “Natural,” and this essentially undermines any point to using the word “natural” to demarcate difference (on my line of thinking). This also siphons off any import from words like “paranormal,” “supernatural,” and etc..

And the issue of evidence is a tough one to resolve because there is a least a sharp sword cleaving two ways here: 1) how are we to define a criteria that establishes evidence that is not in some way based upon what we are already willing to count as evidence? & 2) simply because there is evidence to support such-and-such does not mean that this is evidence to deny a different such-and–such that is contrary to the evidence currently in hand; that is, any system that establishes evidence can only affirm such-and-such as evidence within the system, but cannot deny other systems that might have different methods of establishing evidence, and might even begin from a different “empirical” view!

However, it is clear that you’ve a sense for these difficulties—as you say, “I simply admit that I have to make some fundamental assumptions in order to get the ball rolling.”

I get the impression that you revel in contradictions, my good Doctor. I cannot accept a methodology like that.

That is fair, and again Groman, you are indeed a pleasant person to dialogue with. That said, I find that there might be a small confusion of connection here, so let me try to clear it up a little. It is likely true that I revel in contradictions, but then, it has to be understood that to me the word “contradiction” is equivalent to “absurdity,” “paradox,” and “the divine.” There is more going on here than mere revelry: I breathe because of these things!

Now, it is also critical to note that my methodology is not based on contradiction, but could loosely be seen as a successor to post-modernist tactics, esp. wrt deconstructionist practices, while also taking on a throw-back phenomenological spin (which, while on one hand uniting the compliments of phenomenological reduction with its more modern and sharpest edged deconstructionist techniques, also plays off the idea that there is a grand unified system (or theory) to be discovered-created (a typical phenomenological-like assertion) in contrast to the postmodern mix and match relativistic critique of system and structure). Mix in some traditional mystical-magic/kal formulations along with some of Siddhartha’s techniques and BAM! a system of methods and theory that embraces its own deconstruction, a system which, like I’ve said, turns up the implicit and hidden contradictions of all and any systems, but not necessarily in critique or attempt to destroy, but more often in the pursuit of a greater awareness of our limits and resources wrt systems and so-called “meta”sytems—couple this with the hope that such an awareness promotes a higher degree of acceptance for others, a “live and let live” attitude, and the desire not merely to be tolerant of that which is “foreign” or “unknown” &/v “unknowable” relative to an individual perspective, but to kindle the desire to “appropriate the shadow.”

And yet on other days I merely want to live and move and not think about any of this at all—to not really “think” at all.
 
  

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