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Some questions and statements of a somewhat selfish and foolish (but hopeful) nature.

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07:51 / 30.06.03

I have a desire to record something blatantly wonderful and magickal on film. I want proof in the old-fashioned scientific sense. It's antithetical to all sorts of theory, but whatever. It's an experiment. So on the fourth of July in the middle of the United States I'm going to try to summon and document a demon. Specifically, the distilled and appropriately awful soul of the nation I live in. I'm going to try to manifest America. And I want some input. Pointers. Techniques. Ideas. I want to call up something tangible and real to any eye that sees it, and yes I know how incredibly stupid and impossibly difficult that sounds, but there you have it. And no, I'm not alone in this. So hit me. Sigils, wards, useful fetishes, anything you know or think you know about that could serve me in this.

...And don't bother telling me what a bad idea this is, I already know.

08:48 / 30.06.03

I'd hate to discourage any zip and zest that you might have for such a project buuttt... do you really need to "conjure up" the demon of America, or perhaps as Burroughs remarked "Just look around, buster. Just look around." OSISTM.

Scorched motor oil mixed with the blood of a wounded--the more severe likely the better (but even better from a freshly dead) soldier might be particularly effective...for something or other.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

12:14 / 30.06.03

And I don't care how many times people tell me not to tell them it's a bad idea to do stuff like this, I'm still gonna tell them it's a bad idea.

Bad idea, dude. Bad. Idea.

Why does everyone have to go staight for the humungous demons anyway? "Oh look, a ouija board. Who shall we contact? Johnny Morris, perhaps? One of the late Blue Peter pets? No, fuck it, let's phone Crowley, he'll be all pissy and it'll be a laugh." And who has to clean up the mess, might I ask?

Would it kill everyone to start just a bit smaller? Twinkly psionic energy balls, or something. Jeeze.

12:40 / 30.06.03

I want to call up something tangible and real to any eye that sees it

I don't think you can do this. Any contact with spirits or otherwise happens in your minds eye, your imagination, and so is potentially going to be different to every participant. It's certainly not something you could commit to film and "prove" to James Randi or whoever. Not unless you can transfer mental images to video in some weird cybertromnic way like in Neuromancer, in which case, stop pissing around with demons, there's a fortune waiting to be made in the pornographic film industry.

As to contacting the spirit of America - like Mordant says, tall order. Maybe you could draw inspiration for such a project through random TV or media input or somesuch, but I think that's a long term thing, and more of a creative project reflecting your own vision of what America is.

It's already been "evoked to visible appearence" on film in several idosyncratic forms anyway - the work of David Lynch, say or even better, the opening scene of The Godfather.

Spyder Todd 2008

15:21 / 30.06.03

Well, whether or not you get it on film, if you're going to some a demon, for the love of whatever gods you believe in, use a binding circle! The last thing anyone wants is a rampaging demon running lose. Personally, I would think that the America demon is already lose, like 0 says, just look around, it's everywhere. Remember, demons are not usually your friends, so don't just screw around with them to prove you can.

01:32 / 01.07.03

I appreciate the input. And I know it's a tall order. I'm just trying to pull something valid. And yes, it's free, it's running rampant all over the place, but it's nebulous and open. My aim is to condense down into reality the essence of nasty that seems to be saturating this country.

02:20 / 01.07.03

Why? So it can eat your sanity for second breakfast?

Burn money. Lots of money. Eat a piece of the parchment the constitution is written on. Perform the ritual on Mt. Rushmore, perferably in someone's nostril. Drive there on tractor lawn mowers firing guns every 33 minutes or miles along the way. Masacre some First Nations peoples. Get the "orientals" to do all the dangerous work. Beat a black person. Eat the liver of a secret service agent. Go postal. Don't forget the guns. Use the Bible as a stool or foot rest. Sacrifice a soccer mom. Cut out your eyes and replace them with round stones fashioned from the bricks of Columbine school. Steal OJ's Bronco and drive it through the front of a cop shop like in Terminator. Remember to have plenty of ammunition. Use the scorched motor oil and blood as a catalytic potion to accomplish all this maddness. Good luck.

03:11 / 01.07.03

Sardonic response, but kinda close to what I was originally thinking. An all-American sacrifice. Seven deadly sins-style. Gluttony (Big Mac) Sloth (Old remote control) Pride (A small mirror from Claire's {Mall chick shop}) Wrath (Handful of bullets) Greed (A crisp bill) Lust (Maybe some porn on VHS) and Envy... well, I haven't figured out a good one for envy yet, maybe you can help me out. Either way, all of this detritus is getting consecrated with small quantities of blood and tossed onto a flaming American flag centered in a summoning circle. At least that's what I've got so far.

03:27 / 01.07.03

And who has to clean up the mess, might I ask?

...John Constantine?

03:33 / 01.07.03

Envy... well, I haven't figured out a good one for envy yet, maybe you can help me out

Something connected either to Brad Pitt or Sean Hannity, depending on how you feel about "Envy".

But don't do it. Seriously. There's no good reason to; your reasons are poor ones. If you want to record a summoning, which is an interesting idea, use something small and traditional and less self-conscious.

03:39 / 01.07.03

I would. But big and stupid and self-absorbed are all keystones of America. I know it's cyclical and doesn't need to be, spinning around in large dangerous circles, but I need to see this through to resounding success or monumental failure.

I'm a fool and I know this. But it's got me by the curiosity, and that's my one greatest strength and failing. I also feel vaguely as if I am being directed, which interests me. Again the curiosity.

If you want to try and talk me out of it and direct my attentions elsewhere, be my guest. Curiosity or not, my mind isn't closed, and I can be quite easily distracted by someone who knows what shiny baubles to dangle before me.

...'Course, I'm doubting that, seeing as I'd imagine not one person reading this has a vested interest in me. But altruism hides in the strangest places.

04:52 / 01.07.03

big and stupid and self-absorbed are all keystones of America.

No, they aren't. Most of the time, when we criticize others we're actually criticizing ourselves. I'm not trying to be judgemental or insulting here, I'm trying to point out the dangers of trying something like this. You aren't looking for what's there, you're looking for what you expect to find--and belief tends to confirm itself.

You've got an interesting idea in filming a ritual. Do a whole series of them and compare the effects of doing the ritual as opposed to watching it, or incorporate the taped rituals into a more complex ritual. It could be interesting in a lot of ways. Let that be the really cool, groundbreaking effort of your work right now, rather than shooting the moon with a lot of prejudged goofiness.

But, you know, I'm not anything like an authority on the matter.

trouser the trouserian

07:02 / 01.07.03

You've got an interesting idea in filming a ritual.

I seem to recall a chaos magic video being available a few years back. I think Ray Sherwin & co. released it. Anyone else recall this, or know if it is still available?

08:27 / 01.07.03

Just a quick suggestion, rather than summoning America as a demon, why not summon it as a Zeitgeist spirit? Same result, less soul flaying (although I'm not saying it'll be friendly...)
It seems to me by deliberately personifying it as a demon you're making trouble for yourself and summoning the dark side, why not summon it wholly?
Also be prepared for your camera to get trashed.

11:29 / 01.07.03

Wouldn't it all just be easier to watch a split-screen set-up of CNN and the WWE while speeding off your tits and listening to Limp Bizkit? You couldn't film it, but I think you'd get the mindset...Maybe you could film what you do afterwards.

12:15 / 01.07.03

Thanks again for the input... especially Quaalune and Quantum. As far as the spiraling super-ritual goes, that was already a part of the plan, drawing it up into something greater. And respecting the Zeitgeist... I don't know. It might be worth considering. I'll have to weigh all the personal affinities of the other people participating, get their opinions on the matter.

12:34 / 01.07.03

You know...you must not be too bright.

Pardon me for being so harsh...but reeeeally....

Seriously, let us know how you are doing when and if you get out of the hospital. There is an edge and you are standing on it.

...And no, I am not putting a curse on you...you are doing fine by ya-self.

(Can I smack hir though?, I would really like too...c'mon, you all can watch...I'll make it a good one...promise!)

May - Hungover...can't feel a thing and the glare off the shiny bauble is pissing me off.

Do I have your attention, before I smack you in the head with this?

Spyder Todd 2008

13:13 / 01.07.03

I hate to say it, but May Tricks is right about the whole hospital thing. Just cause I'm curious, have you ever tried to summon anything ever before?

13:26 / 01.07.03

(Trust the Q's, Deadwing--we are an utterly honorable sacred order)

Deadwing probably doesn't actually have much to worry about in terms of bodily harm or immediate psychological damage. I think all the sarcasm and a priori judgements inherent in this "Demon of America" thing will probably leech all the Will out of this thing and, at worst, ze'll be bored (and at best, ze'll have a bit of fun). However, the potential long-term repercussions are a little frightening. Do you really want to draw America's attention over something like this?

But let's not beat the n00b up too much, eh?

13:51 / 01.07.03

Quaalune, I was indeed harsh...but hey...choices are available to demons as well. Think about it, if you have free will, why not another being...Especially something that already has a life of it's own.

Maybe it won't like the plans Deadwing has....just a thought.

True though, about the psychological damage thing...it always seems to creep up on ya.

13:54 / 01.07.03

I’m finding this thread quite interesting. I think there’s a couple of unexamined assumptions in operation here. The first being that the sprit of America is a real “thing” (whatever that is) and two, that it can be contacted. If we accept the first two, it seem reasonable to assume that this “thing” is therefore dangerous and should then be avoided which is the line a lot of other posters seem to be taken. Don’t know if this adds anything to the discussion but it seems worth pointing out.

I’m not sure what my take on spirits is actually, I think the most sensible approach I’ve heard seems to be treat them as real, while maintaining a kind of critical awareness of that idea. I don’t know how I feel about applying that idea to something as potentially broad as the spirit of America – after all, it’s not like this entity has a magical “c.v.” like say, the spirits of the Goetia, the Voodoo loa or various pantheons of Gods. Is it a contactable spirit at all?

Also, I would think that any contact might take a while to build up – surely, no spirit worth it’s salt is going to turn up whenever you snap your fingers, is it? - and would contain elements of your own experience or expectations, instead of being entirely an external whajamacallit. I’d see it as a kind of gestalt that emerges somewhere between the two.

Don’t know if this helps.

13:59 / 01.07.03

I think this is a good idea for one reason, it's ballsy. Thats right, ol whatsis name has some serious balls, because he has no idea what he's summoning. Could be some creature the skulls have been worshiping and feeding for approx. 150 yrs or whatever, and yeah don't bring a camera you want to keep, other than that, lots of eye n the pyrimids cut out of us dollar bills and burned as incense might help, copies of tax returns where someones been totally screwed would be good too. Maybe even a 5.56 mm (2.23 cal?) bullet with the powder and primer taken out as on of the totem charms, an FBI badge or CIA ID would be tits.

14:24 / 01.07.03

Deadwing- definitely do it, it'll be a cracking laugh whatever happens or doesn't, and it's better than watching TV, eh.
What are your coworkers like? Any chance any of them will go crazy and shout 'I'm the demon USA!' and run amok with the bullets you've handily prepared? Will there be copius amounts of drugs?

And let us know how it goes either way, I for one am intrigued as hell

14:26 / 01.07.03

...and also trust the Qs, we are an ancient order of omnipotent hyperbeings amusing ourselves in your reality. One of us even hides in plain sight in star trek apparently.

15:06 / 01.07.03

I think I just wanted to get judgemental on someone's ass today , but of course, I can see the "fun" aspect here.

For one, you can dress in a toga and carry a torch...and bomb small, rich countries if you even remotely suspect they are threatening you or even if they are not...control the world market...

The "Spirit of America" is real and alive

15:10 / 01.07.03

I'll definitely follow up on how everything turns out. As for my co-conspirators, my primary counterweight will be a relatively insane friend of mine who has a deep love of comic books, esoteric theory, and psychotropic drugs. The others will be for the most part fear batteries to power the calling, though I doubt most of them realize this yet (I will likely tell them before the actual event though, I'm not a fan of deception.) The only other individual of note is a friend of the aforementioned with minor dealings in old-school hermetic process.

And to answer another question, yes, I've done things like this before. I'm fairly skilled at distilling broad-field spirits into more compact forms. Note that to this end I've only been capable of making them manifest in mirrors and shadows thus far. But I have high hopes.

And the odds of possession among the others is relatively low. If anything it would shunt itself into me. They usually do.

19:37 / 01.07.03

Envy... well, I haven't figured out a good one for envy yet, maybe you can help me out.

Envy = Oil, preferably crude.... or perhaps old and used up?

Otherwise, take your precautions AND re-examine why you want to do this...

seems vaguely ego feeding...

Spyder Todd 2008

02:06 / 02.07.03

Summonings can be fun, if you summon the right beings...

Anywho, I really hope that if this thing works, one of your batteries gets possesed, and you get it all on film...
Okay, a little sadistic, but I'm finished now.

Quantim, not just one of you! There are lots of Qs!
(wow, I have seen way to much Star Trek)

The Return Of Rothkoid

04:09 / 02.07.03

in which case, stop pissing around with demons, there's a fortune waiting to be made in the pornographic film industry.
Nah. Combine both. Shoggoth porn!

04:42 / 02.07.03

Thank you, friend, for that lovely lovely mental image of a two-hundred foot cthonic phallopus. I'm sure I'll sleep well tonight.
Yeh sick bastard.

trouser the trouserian

07:22 / 02.07.03

Taking up Illmatic's point about the spirit of America....

It strikes me that 'demons' (particularly if we are thinking in terms of complex structures such as countries) have a 'nature' similar to russian dolls - they're made of up of lots of elements that 'feed' each other. So why just stop at the 'seven deadly sins' structure, Deadwings? It strikes me you might arrive at a far more powerful ritual if you examine some of the other characteristics of this demonAmerika. For instance, one might propose that this entity has been, for some time, drawing power from the spirit of colonialism, which might prompt you to explore how one could ritually represent both American manifestations of colonialism, and colonialism in general. Having the ritualists wear Nike trainers might be one way of doing this. Or have a look at Michael Taussig's "Mimesis and Alterity" wherein he suggests that a core feature of colonizers is to condemn non-western cultures as savage or barbaric (reflecting deep-seated cultural fears and repressions) and then to mimic that very savagery in their own acts of violence.

Or consider how Amerika's moral superiority is bound up with the Christian Right and see where that leads you. Declaiming ritual litanies in the style of Fred Phelps? A crucified foetus on the altar? If you want to display America's darkest heart, you're going to have to dig deep.

Incidently, the magical use of deities etc., in political protest has its antecedents. 19th century Bengalis identified India with Kali and exhorted Indians to offer 'white goats' to to Mother India.

08:37 / 02.07.03

So you'll be the one running amok possessed by America? On film? Have a good lawyer dude, just in case.
On the crazy-ways-to-spend-a-Friday-night scale this has got to be right up there. I'm assuming as it's independance day there'll be loads of fireworks going off and mad parties etc? spectacular backdrop at least.

15:11 / 02.07.03

Here's a suggestion- try summoning the best of America as well as the worst, two summonings simultaneously. Paralelling your seven deadly sins invocation, you could try contacting the spirit of American freedom, the Woodstock energies, the declaration of independance (unamended perhaps), some good films etc. all the good stuff about the US.
You might be able to get them to manifest simultaneously as American Wrestlers, and have a smackdown to decide the fate of the nation to a backdrop of independance day celebrations, Good Ol' US of A vs. Evil Amerikkka. I'd watch that for a dollar...

trouser the trouserian

15:22 / 02.07.03

Uncle Bills' thanksgiving prayer echoes in my head whilst reading this thread.

Quantum, like your idea about summoning the best of America as well as the worst. Ask the shade of Tim Leary to slip some acid into GWB's coffee?

15:52 / 02.07.03

I recently watched bowling for colombine. The main comment on what makes America different is that Americans have a culture of fear. Fear, primarily, of other Americans.

So if you do raise up the paranoid, loud, pushy, frightened, ambitious, greedy, talented, powerful, huge, confident, well-meaning chimera of good and bad which is the USA, please give it a big hug from me and tell it that everything's gonna be all right.

I seem to recall each area of the USA has different sandwiches (grinders, hoagies etc.). My knowledge is scetchy and based on the simpsons, but I was thinking you could use them on the cardianal points. Or, as it's america, get people to eat them on those points, and drink beer from the N,S,E,W respecively.

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