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Past lives: how? possible? whatever

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foolish fat finger

10:47 / 05.07.06

Well not many people remember their past life as an alien either, so the problem remains.

just as an aside, apparently a high proportion of near death experiencers come back with memories, kind of ancient racial memories of the human race coming to earth from a distant planet. P.M.H. Atwater descibes this in her book 'within the light', adding that though she feels puzzled by it, she has these memories in herself, also. (she is an experiencer herself).

do I believe this to be true? well, it's quite possible, however, it doesn't especially pertain to living peaceably in the now, so I guess it's probably irrelevant, true or not.

as to re-incarnation and population growth- well there are infinite or near infinite numbers of beings, so growth or shrinkage within one species doesn't mean much. maybe the extra people are re-incarnation of all the trees the human race is murdering. maybe they have come back as eco-activists, to smash the chainsaws, no?!

ok, I am making a joke, but you get my point.

Unconditional Love

11:36 / 05.07.06

The problem i have with this is its conception of time as if time is defined by human memory and recorded history, thats not actually my experience of time, there is only now and its all happening now, including what is termed past and future. An eternal present, where it is possible to have awareness and experience of what may seem like the future or past, dead or alive, because all of these phenomena are happening now. The same goes for a conception of space which cannot be seperated from time, every phenomena is occuring in the space you are in. Each possible reality is contained and constrained by the awareness of the perciever and the sensory limits and temporal conception of the active mind.

It can be considered as a network of temporal spacial relationships which are forming and reforming in accord to the relational awareness that a perciever relates to. There is no consistant factor except perhaps change. Attachment to any one temporal spacial state will inevitably lead to locked perception which can cause a great deal of suffering.

Letting go of all conceptions of space time releases the dam of cluttered conscious forms and allows the here and now to flow in, alien or human.

11:38 / 05.07.06

This is a short post which isn’t going to do the subject justice but – I think trying to understand the concept of reincarnation from the outside of a culture that believes in it, is very difficult. It’s a bit like a guy a small Amazonian tribe trying to comprehend the cultural significance of Father Xmas in the West. There’s a whole cultural superstructure that girds and reinforces this belief – religious practice, folk tradition, philosophical discourse – a whole cosmology, world view and schools of philosophical enquiry. I think that without engaging with these on some level at least you’re simply picking up bits and pieces that support your pre-existing prejudices. I’m not saying that I understand the Buddhist theory (theories?) of mind – I don’t. But I’m aware that they are there, and the extent to which they sound counter-intuitive to Westerners.

I went to hear a talk a year or two ago about a guy who is apparently the first Western reincarnation of a Lama – the famous Lama Yeshe, who came back to two Western Buddhists and is now known as Lama Osel. The video footage shown wasn’t particular convincing to me – he just looked like a gangly Spanish kid. I’m not that interested in that to be honest. - what’s really interesting to me is the space that opens up between Western and Eastern sets of beliefs and how they negotiate (or fail to negotiate) a common ground. I’m sure we’ll see a lot more of this if Buddhism continues to grow in popularity.

11:49 / 05.07.06

Doc Checkmate - my point up above about "theories of mind" was in part inspired by your post above where you mentioned proofs. I heard an old Buddhist nun give a talk on this, and my impression was that her concept of mind/consciousness was very different to what yer average Westerner was thinking of. Thus, the clash in worldviews.

12:27 / 05.07.06

I think trying to understand the concept of reincarnation from the outside of a culture that believes in it, is very difficult. It’s a bit like a guy a small Amazonian tribe trying to comprehend the cultural significance of Father Xmas in the West.

Well, sort of. I think it's overstating the case a bit to compare rebirth in Buddhism with Santa in the West. To a Buddhist, rebirth is a fact about the nature of reality, couched within a religion that prides itself on analytical soundness. To a Westerner, and even to a Christian, Santa is a beloved cultural icon, seriously believed in only by children. The two are quite different, I think. Surely intelligent and informed Buddhists have a reason for believing in rebirth, which they can convey to some degree. Even if it's "I've been able to verify enough of the Buddha's teachings that I trust in the truth of the others."

I reckon it's more like trying to explain special relativity to someone with no background in physics, to use an uninspired analogy. I agree that Buddhist philosophy and cosmology are incredibly sophisticated, and maybe asking for a bite-sized explanation of rebirth is misguided. But maybe not. There's no way to understand special relativity in fullness without a solid grounding in physics, and yet I've come across some excellent bite-sized explanations of special relativity that provide a simplified, but essentially correct, understanding. If a specially-for-Westerners explanation of rebirth involves "well, you wouldn't really get it, but you shift your awareness to the fifth jhana, where you're able to see that..." then that's ok with me. I'll take as much as I can wrap my head around.

You might say that it's more like trying to explain special relativity to someone with no exposure to SCIENCE, or something similarly extreme. But I think that would be taking it too far. It's not like non-Buddhists are without any experience in philosophy or cosmology of some kind, or even of the Eastern kind.

12:40 / 05.07.06

Illmatic: I only just learned that consciousness studies and philosophy of mind are active and evolving fields of study. I had a multiple joygasm. I've been thinking about that stuff for years, formulating little thought experiments and drawing conclusions and whatnot, and it's so cool to see the same ideas fleshed out and taken further. AND using long, impressive sciencey words! I'm about to start reading my face off on this stuff, and I may even want to pursue it academically after law school if my interest remains as strong as it seems to be now.

I also think that I overemphasized the degree to which I disagree with you. Actually, I think I differ only in emphasis. Now that I look at your post more closely, I see that you never said a Westerner couldn't engage with Eastern concepts of rebirth, just that it would be hard. I'm 10000% in accord with this:

there’s a whole cultural superstructure that girds and reinforces this belief – religious practice, folk tradition, philosophical discourse – a whole cosmology, world view and schools of philosophical enquiry. I think that without engaging with these on some level at least you’re simply picking up bits and pieces that support your pre-existing prejudices.

I find very little appeal in people's groundless hippy-dippy speculations, a la "well, I believe that the space-time continuum is like this, and the universe is like a big soap bubble but with aliens and shit, and we are reborn according to how many trees we've planted etc etc." SAY SOMETHING!!!

13:10 / 05.07.06

I find very little appeal in people's groundless hippy-dippy speculations.

My feelings exactly. Just to clarify, the point about Santa Claus wasn't about whether people believe in it or not (obviously, he's real - right? Don't start shitting me), I was more using him as an example of a complex bit of cultural coding. It'd be hard to pick up the pervaiseness in our culture and all the different sets of meanings in one quick blast if you're an outsider.

13:32 / 05.07.06

Totally. I guess I was just noting that Santa is essentially a cultural construct, while Buddhists see rebirth as a universal truth. A universal truth should transcend culture, although I agree that a Westerner might find the completeness of his understanding limited by the extent of his context.

13:42 / 05.07.06

No meaningful evidence? I'm afraid if you won't accept witness statements or second hand experience the only way I could provide evidence is to come round your house with the next Dalai Llama and a control llama and get you to do the tests yourself. Then you could make sure there was no prompting.

Damned straight I won't accept witness statements or second hand experience (without more) as proof of supernatural occurrences. If I did, I see no reason for believing in reincarnated lamas over, say, the divinity of Jesus, the second coming of the Space Brothers, or Crowley turning Victor Neuburg into a camel.

If I don't have first-hand experience of a given bit of weirdness I'll keep an open mind about whether it may or may not be true, but I certainly won't believe it unless it seems more probable than not, given the evidence available to me.

I do like the idea of a control llama, though. (Although I'd probably prefer a vicuña.)

Unconditional Love

20:27 / 05.07.06

How probable is belief? Youve posed me an intresting question. What do i have to gather to form belief, experience, trust in the process of conscious concieving, a body of information with reference point external and internal, for example how do you believe in the letter A? If i can back up my position with others respected view points does that make my belief more viable, especially if you may have sympathy for those views. How probable is belief.

If i inscribe the letter A does that make it more believable? because i can inscribe it? If i remember a past life and i believe that memory does that make the past life my belief or the memory of the pastlife my belief, why would i form a belief, why make an internal phenomena or external act permanent by enshrining a temporary experience in belief? What is the memory like of the memory i have of my past life. When i remember the experience of my remeberence that i remembered before does my belief become more real? Is belief acceptence, forgetting the questions you asked to begin with and accepting the answers/beliefs you remember you arrived at.

Is a past life a substitue for the shit life you may be living now? but then i was famous, i really am a special person and this proves it, the most shallow example of past life rememberence i have encountered.

I dont think thats how buddhists treat it, but new age past life rememberence has left its scar.

foolish fat finger

21:55 / 07.07.06

.M.A.R., your post interests me. I can only speak what I feel, without proof.

first, using the example of the woman I met who claimed to be Dante's lover previously, well, it's possible- somebody must have been! however, I am inclined to doubt such a famous and interesting example. however, this doesn't neccessarily discount it for me. I think people use all kinds of means to explain their place and position in the universe, and this to me is valid. so I honour her for it. it's interesting to me that I still often think about it, ten years on. it's just such an interesting thing for a woman working as a domestic cleaner to say. does that sound like I am making a value judgement about cleaners? it's not intentional, just that I worked as a cleaner for 3 years, in various hospitals and old people's homes, and mostly we all just talked about the humdrum.

a few years ago, when I was still cynical, I engineered a past-life experience, through visualisation, with a friend. I saw a great marble staircase. I was walking down the staircase! it seemed to be in some huge stately mansion. at the bottom of the stairs was an immense mirror. I got to the bottom of the stairs, looked into it. I was Errol Flynn!!! wow!

I checked up later. Errol Flynn died after I was born... so, hokum, I thought.

my real past-life experience hit me out of the blue, while meditating last year. I was neither famous, nor at all nice during this life. to think of it makes me feel somewhat naseous. the chronology fits as well. still, I couldn't swear it was real, but I fully believe it to be. It makes full sense of my current life in karmic terms, and believe me, nothing else makes sense of it.

and so, onto belief!
belief is the flip side of doubt. belief implies doubt. it is a dualistic condition, and therefore, according to Buddhist doctrine, a part of samsara. there is a knowing that transcends belief. the knowing is non-dualistic, and I don't know what I would call it, but I think various people call it the Tao, Ultimate Truth, union with the Godhead, Krishna conciousness, Nirvana etc... the knowing is non-dualistic, and if experienced, belief and doubt become irrelevant.

peace to all, f.f. finger

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