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Past lives: how? possible? whatever

 
  

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paw
00:17 / 27.06.03
if you want to talk in this thread about the validity(or lack of) ,theories, or experiences of past life regression then go ahead. I wanna find the exercises or sources of info to bring out the fourteenth century viking in me!
i came across an exercise a while ago from a John c.Lilly book but it's at a friends house. i'll post it asap but i thought i might give you lot a headstart.
the idea of a barbelith collective experiment to discover if this kind of regression is possible would be excellent in my opinion.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
19:48 / 27.06.03
I have had dreams about people who lived in the past I never have found out who they were. Every March 31st I light a candle for someone's birthday who died in 1865, though I;m not sure even what her name was. It just feels right, that's all.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:20 / 30.06.03
I believe in reincarnation but I haven't experienced anything personally that makes me feel I've lived as someone else before, other than deja vu.
 
 
Warewullf
16:13 / 30.06.03
I really don't want to believe in past lives. Doing this once is hard enough, the thought of going back to square one after death is fairly horrific to me.
 
 
Tamayyurt
16:19 / 30.06.03
I do believe in past lives. I see it as these 4D or 5D beings experiencing these short 3D lives. Some of them are horrible but then again we watch horror movies and read horror stories. To them these lives are just a more immersive fiction.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
17:19 / 30.06.03
Warewullf, in theory you come back to get it right. There are plenty of lives that are not horrific.

My own pet theory is that reincarnation does not actually happen, but there are events that seem to us like reincarnation. To be reincarnated, you'd have to have a portion of self that is independant of all the machinery we've grown, both physical and psychological, to aid in the transmission of genes, and most of the time I don't really think there is such a unit. What would it be for? People are all pretty much the same, and the only individual differences are in the configuration, like how all of our computers are essentially the same but are configured differently, according to the problems they encounter and the things they have in memory. It's the configuration that feels like "self".

This next bit involves a little psuedo-sciencey temporal theory. If you have the Chaotey idea that there is only one point in time that exists, and that the past and future are in a nonexistent state of probability, then reincarnation and other psychic phenomena might happen when another configuration that is extremely similar to yours appears elsewhere in the present moment and "echoes" off of yours. It might seem to be in the past, say, or like an apparition, but it's actually a reflection of what's already in your mind.

Or, a little more obfuscatiously*, if time is a physical dimension and is "simultaneous" throughout, then the echoing portion of your mind is actually "pinned" to the other, similar bit elsewhere in spacetime and experience is leaking through. This could even be a matter of subatomic exchange, where your mind is acting as a lense for information to pass through, skipping over the spacetime in between. I don't recall proper beasty, but there are subatomic particals that seem to exchange information without anything crossing the space between them, and these beasties must occur inside our brains, as well as in physics laboratories. Maybe if there are enough of them, arrayed in a fashion similar enough to the array in someone else's brain, they "see" each other or even switch places.

But that's just science fiction.

*At least I think it's obfuscatious--but there are plenty of actual scientists who like this model of time.
 
 
cusm
20:10 / 30.06.03
I think the beasties you are referring to are quantum pairs. That is, a photon (particle of light) that is split into two halves (one with positive charge and the other negative). Experiments show that when one affects one half of the pair, the other half is affected as well. Information appears to be transmitted instanteously from oneto the other, proving the Law of Contageon (once together, always together) in quantum physics.

As for how this can relate to past life regression, imagine if you were one part of such a pair, or that within you is energy that was once contained in a different information system than your current incarnation. Perhaps through this can information be transmitted through the contageous relationship between components and a prior whole.
 
 
Quantum
08:59 / 01.07.03
Quantum entanglement, they call it.
"Individually, an entangled particle has properties (such as momentum) that are indeterminate and undefined until the particle is measured or otherwise disturbed. Measuring one entangled particle, however, defines its properties and seems to influence the properties of its partner or partners instantaneously, even if they are light years apart. Due to the fact that the two particles are entangled interaction on the one cause instantaneous effects on the other."
from here about teleportation
the encyclopaedic lowdown
an interesting article on entanglement and causality

Note that subatomic particles sometimes have antiparticles, with opposite charge and spin, that are the same ones going backwards in time. That's what antimatter is.
Also note though that Photons are time symmetrical, they don't have antiphotons.
And that the photon doesn't split in half, cusm is thinking of an electron-positron pair I think.
 
 
Earlier than I thought
20:38 / 01.07.03
Well...here's a theory. If one takes as read the idea that an object seen in what we describe as 'four dimensional vision' (ie in time as well as space) would appear as a long 'sausage' of itself...imagine what the whole human race looks like. Each individual strand (person) would return to another (the maternal line). Since we can all be traced back (alledgedly) to one individual ancestor (who must have a very startled expression on her face) then logically, from a certain perspective, the entire species is one huge Chthulhu-looking creature. Hence, we remember bits of other peoples lives!

If you see what I mean. Um.
 
 
Warewullf
21:10 / 01.07.03
Neat! From reincarnation to Quantum Entanglement in 6 moves!

Warewullf, in theory you come back to get it right. There are plenty of lives that are not horrific.

I know, but I'm saying I don't want to come back to try to get it right, it ain't worth it. No life is completely without pain. If i get a choice, I'll choose oblivion/afterlife/reincarnation as a non-sentient entity.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
02:15 / 02.07.03
I'm with the Warewulf. When I die, I want that to be the end. Nothing else. Unless I can become part of the dreaming. Now, that would be cool.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
02:46 / 02.07.03
How about racial memory? Sense impressions held electrically by the neurons, then coded chemically, then coded into what we suppose to be 'junk' DNA and passed on to descendents? I'm thinking about believing in that for a while.
 
 
—| x |—
07:20 / 02.07.03
I'm gonna' butt in and be blunt with my view here: I don't believe in past lives. OK that's not so accurate, but I tend to feel that time's kinda' a function of our awareness, and that all possible times are accessible through awareness. So to me it seems that past life recall and such isn't so much remembering past lives that we lived, but becoming more aware of the lives that we are living now. Moreover, I think there is an awareness which corresponds to living all possible lives at once, but this might be a "Holy Grail" of mine.

I mean, I've had dreams that I could feel that I was aware of living another possible life--so it was a real life for the duration of the dream.

Exercises?--I'm going to jog away now...watch me as I jog.
 
 
cusm
17:45 / 02.07.03
The being aware of all times, past and future, of your life as well as the lives of other people is one of the things that people sometimes get in deep Salvia trips, by the way.
 
 
Earlier than I thought
20:51 / 06.07.03
Gahn! After clumsily expounding my thoughts on the subject (above) I read the frigging GM interview and what does he come out with?

Now I look like a freakish stalker. Alright, here's an alternative. Since a soul (if you take the existence of a soul as read) has no mass, theoretically, it shouldn't be subject to 'Time' (the hit West End musical). Therefore, you could quite feasibly come back as yourself. Or your parents. Or everyone who ever lived, all at once. "Do unto others as you would yourself" or whatever the hell that guy said.
 
 
paw
21:29 / 06.07.03
as promised here is the exercise. it's known as 'dyadic eye fixation' which lilly describes as 'a powerful interpersonal programming technique'. you need two people for this. seems quite simple so...

'while sitting and not moving, each person looks into the eye of the other. when this is done for ten minutes to an hour or so, many things happen to oneself, one's perception, one's feeling, one's being.''


lilly goes on to say 'in my first demonstration of this technique with oscar, ( his chilean trainer) i seemed to go through shared past life experiences with him over several tens of lives in various parts of the planet'

one to try with the girlfriend me thinks
 
 
paw
21:40 / 06.07.03
this exercise also apparently brings you into 'spaces of great peace, quiet, and golden light'...
 
 
Shrug
01:45 / 20.06.06
I know somebody undergoing a past-life regression soon. What does the process actually involve? And has anyone ever had one?
 
 
foolish fat finger
20:21 / 01.07.06
yeah, I had one... I had insights into past lives before that, and I thought it would be useful to explore it.

first off, let me say, I am with Warewullf- I really don't want to have to come back and 'get it right'. but I do believe it to be so.

I never used to believe in past lives. everyone wants to be Cleopatra, don't they?! well, that was what I thought. I met a woman, when I worked as a cleaner at an old people's home. she was a cleaner as well. she claimed to have been Dante's lover, who inspired him to write about the seven circles of hell. well, I thought, it must be a bit of a comedown, to end up as a cleaner in an old people's home... I was very cynical then.

however, I had some experiences last year, that leave me personally without doubt. I 'saw' my past life. I am ashamed to give details, so I won't, but I was truly sickened. I was a nasty person. I was everything I despise in this life, or rather, the way I acted was despicable. It was awful. I pleaded, 'how could this happen?' then I was shown the lifetime before. I was a native American, maybe a chief, in the late 1800's. I saw myself return to my village. the were thin plumes of smoke rising from various parts of the settlement, but other than that it was still, silent. everyone I knew, everyone I loved, everyone I had lived with, was dead. they had been massacred. and hate filled my heart, and I vowed vengeance. I vowed to kill those who had done this- so they would know. I wanted them to feel how I felt.

so my next lifetime, I got my chance, and I did that. I hurt people. maybe they were the same people who had done this, reincarnated. maybe they weren't, I don't know. but I got my revenge. and before I died, I knew I had done a great wrong.

briefly, in this lifetime, I have the choice of acting in hate or forgiveness. I choose forgiveness, at least most of the time, unless I get unbalanced. but I certainly don't go out to hurt- I try to harm as little as possible, including being vegetarian.

the past life regression was good, and interesting, tho I felt the healer was a bit too directive, a bit pushy. I needed more time, to integrate some of the feelings, and she pushed a me a bit too hard to kind of 'deal with it and move on'

what amazed me though, was the strength of the feelings I had. for instance, returning to the village, I really did feel like everyone I knew had been killed. I truly felt the immense loss in that. it was heartbreaking. I feel I still have more work to do on that.

a person might say that these experiences are just projections, and of course that is possible. however, there is just a sense about the experience, that feels real to me. so I believe it. I have come from a position of being a complete cynic, so I haven't accepted it lightly. but I... well, I can't say any more than I believe it to be true, in the light of what I have experienced.

what does it involve? well, it's like hypnosis I guess... I will say, I had my first experiences during meditation. so I guess your brain slows down, is it like alpha waves...? and then you get the scene popping up in your mind...
 
 
foolish fat finger
20:33 / 01.07.06
I am finding this thread fascinating. I would like to post more, but I already wrote quite a long post. I just wanted to say, I entirely agree with Alex. we are like someone reading a novel, who gets so engrossed in the main character, that we forget who we really are...
 
 
Ticker
03:14 / 02.07.06
I've had experiences that could be past life, or genetic memory, or channelling something weird in the here and now. While I personally do believe in reincarnation, I do not believe it is about improvement, only experience. Nor do I believe we need to be aware of our past incarnations.

Is my childhood important when dealing with my adult reactions? Same people may say it is critical to understanding the adult, others do not.

It has been said that we should not worry about the after-life as we will find out soon enough, and the same could be said about the before-life as well. The information may give us insights but it doesn not change the task at hand.
 
 
Doc Checkmate
13:36 / 03.07.06
Maybe you guys can shed some light on something I've been puzzling over. Are there any philosophical or analytical proofs for the Buddhist concept of rebirth?

I ask because the Buddha generally takes the position of "analyze and confirm my teachings before you accept them," and this actually can be done with a lot of Buddhist ideas. Most of the big ones are pretty much common sense and easy to sort out. Impermanence and the law of causality are self-evident. The error of attachment follows directly from the truth of impermanence and can also be verified experientially. But I haven't encountered a solid analysis of rebirth, nor have I been able to come up with one myself. The closest thing I've heard is: "Everything that exists has a cause. Since your consciousness exists, there must be some antecedent cause which gave rise to it. Therefore, there was a consciousness prior to your current one."

That seems flawed to me. It may be true that every effect has a cause, but it doesn't follow that the cause is necessarily an earlier iteration of the effect. I see a fire and know that the fire has a cause, but that doesn't mean that its cause was an earlier fire. Fire arises from a combination of heat, fuel, and oxygen. Its cause might have been the earth's atmosphere, a spinning stick, and a bag of dog shit. From no fire to fire. So I don't see how "your life has cause" leads inevitably to "the cause of your life was an earlier life."

Am I missing something, or should I lump rebirth in with the other "trust Buddha" concepts, like "beware the realm of hungry ghosts" etc? I'm ok with that. I accept the possibility that some concepts just can't be personally verified until you've spent some time under a bodhi tree or whatever; there's no rule saying "it's not a fact if you can't check it." I'll ask my dharma teacher when we meet in a few days, but in the meantime-- thoughts?
 
 
Quantum
14:08 / 03.07.06
we are like someone reading a novel, who gets so engrossed in the main character, that we forget who we really are...

Check this short piece out.

The most convincing proof of reincarnation for me is the stories of people who remember things they couldn't and the Dalai Llama's test to ascertain that he is actually the reincarnation. It seems very likely that some people reincarnate at least.
My philosophical opinion is that since there are more people alive now than have ever lived, you either concede the creation of new souls or that they are outside of time. If they're outside time you could reincarnate next in 1000 BC (and in fact we could all be the one soul going through every incarnation in turn so you get to the idea of God as the self wearing our lives like fictionsuits, we're all one being etc. etc) but nobody seems to have memories of future lives, so it's a problem. It's also at odds with other experiences of the afterlife, and is usually intimately tied to the concept of karma unless I'm mistaken.
 
 
EvskiG
16:24 / 03.07.06
My philosophical opinion is that since there are more people alive now than have ever lived, you either concede the creation of new souls or that they are outside of time.

Or that souls don't exist, or that "soul" is an existentially meaningless construct, or a few thousand other possibilities.
 
 
Quantum
16:52 / 03.07.06
Sorry, I should have said If you believe in reincarnation then... before that. Obviously if you don't it's not going to be a problem, is it? You don't find many materialists agonising about the nature of the soul.
 
 
Doc Checkmate
17:24 / 03.07.06

Quantum:
My philosophical opinion is that since there are more people alive now than have ever lived, you either concede the creation of new souls or that they are outside of time

Evski G:
Or that souls don't exist, or that "soul" is an existentially meaningless construct, or a few thousand other possibilities.

Quantum:
Sorry, I should have said If you believe in reincarnation then... before that. Obviously if you don't it's not going to be a problem, is it? You don't find many materialists agonising about the nature of the soul.


Well, I think your conclusion may need a little firming up anyway, Q. As I see it, you at least need to add the premise, "...and if we assume that souls don't migrate to or from planet Earth in between lives..." or "...and if we assume the universe at large mirrors Earth's population growth patterns..." or "...and if we assume that we're alone in the universe..." etc.

Anyway, that's nitpicky of me, and I see what you're getting at. The point about anecdotal evidence is a good one, and I should really look into the documentation of those claims. Things like the young soon-to-be Tenzin Gyatso being shown a mix of things which belonged to the late Dalai Lama and things which didn't, picking only the Dalai Lama's possessions without error.

Nonetheless, I'm interested in the possibility of an analytical support for rebirth. The identification of incarnations is a uniquely Tibetan tradition, as far as I know, and the Buddha's own disciples in India and the non-Tibetan lineages could not have relied on such evidence.
 
 
EvskiG
19:26 / 03.07.06
Things like the young soon-to-be Tenzin Gyatso being shown a mix of things which belonged to the late Dalai Lama and things which didn't, picking only the Dalai Lama's possessions without error.

Of course, since I assume this wasn't a double-blind experiment, Tenzin simply might have picked up on nonverbal cues from his examiners. (Since it's been proven that dogs and horses can do this, I'd assume a clever child can as well.)
 
 
foolish fat finger
20:58 / 03.07.06
Quantuum, thanks for the story- now has been bumped to the top of 'creation'. which sounds like quite a heady place to be...

Doc, to paraphrase the Buddha 'when you know in yourself these things are true'... I can't prove reincarnation to anyone, but I do know in myself it is true, due to my experiences. I have had a closed mind that has slowly been opened to the truths of the Buddha, (which is an ongoing process). there is plenty of evidence that supports reincarnation, and plenty that may seem to discount it. I guess it may be something where a personal insight may be neccessary...

I do think however, that knowledge of past lives is not especially important in terms of reaching 'the end of suffering'. in the Buddha's case, in his mythology, it was the last thing he became aware of, actually during his awakening, seemingly as a confirmation that all his karma had been extinguished...
 
 
Doc Checkmate
01:07 / 04.07.06
Of course, since I assume this wasn't a double-blind experiment, Tenzin simply might have picked up on nonverbal cues from his examiners. (Since it's been proven that dogs and horses can do this, I'd assume a clever child can as well.)

You're right, Evski. I guess that example wouldn't really show much unless it turned out that the items were presented in a manner that eliminated the possibility of reading the presenter(s)... for example, if the presenter was himself unaware which items were "hits," and those who did know waited elsewhere during the testing.

There are other instances I've heard about which involved fewer opportunities for confounding factors, but again, I really don't know enough to draw any conclusions.
 
 
Quantum
18:44 / 04.07.06
Among other omens, the head on the embalmed body of thirteenth Dalai Lama (originally facing south) had mysteriously turned to face the northeast, indicating the direction in which the next Dalai Lama would be found. Shortly afterwards, the Regent Reting Rinpoche had a vision indicating Amdo (as the place to search) and a one-storey house with distinctive guttering and tiling. After extensive searching, they found that Thondup's house resembled that in Reting's vision. They thus presented Thondup with various relics and toys — some had belonged to the previous Dalai Lama while others hadn't. Thondup correctly identified all items owned by the previous Dalai Lama, stating "It's mine! It's mine!"

Did nonverbal cues turn the embalmed body's head and provoke Rinpoche's vision too? Is Tibetan Buddhism founded on an elaborate system of self-deception and coincidence?

Wow, I didn't know this- His eldest brother, Thupten Jigme Norbu, has been recognised as the rebirth of the high lama, Takser Rinpoche.
 
 
Quantum
18:53 / 04.07.06
you at least need to add the premise, "...and if we assume that souls don't migrate to or from planet Earth in between lives..."

Well not many people remember their past life as an alien either, so the problem remains. The simplest thing is to believe new entities-that-reincarnate can be created and thus you end up with 'Old Souls' and 'New Souls'. I hope I'm a new soul, I hate sloppy seconds.
 
 
Doc Checkmate
19:05 / 04.07.06
Well not many people remember their past life as an alien either, so the problem remains.

Again, Quantum, I have to respectfully disagree with your logic. As far as I can work it out, in no way does a relative lack of "extraterrestrial" past life recollections necessarily exclude the possibility of "extraterrestrial" past lives. Not saying I believe in any of this stuff, natch.
 
 
EvskiG
19:29 / 04.07.06
Did nonverbal cues turn the embalmed body's head and provoke Rinpoche's vision too?

I have no meaningful evidence that either of these things ever actually happened. Do you?

Is Tibetan Buddhism founded on an elaborate system of self-deception and coincidence?

I think that Buddhism, at its best, is a brilliant system of psychology and self-realization.

Personally speaking, I think the gods, mythology, and dogma of Tibetan Buddhism, if taken literally, are a beautiful and spectacular way to miss the entire point of Buddhism.

My favorite Buddhist story obliquely addresses this issue. Here's one version, which I adapted from a few different websites and tweaked a bit:

A monk asked the Buddha a series of metaphysical questions: whether there is one god or many, whether the universe is finite or infinite, and so forth. The Buddha responded:

"Sir, you are like a person shot with a poisoned arrow whose family summons the doctor to have the arrow removed. The man refuses to let the doctor do anything before certain questions can be answered. Who shot the arrow? What is his caste? Why did he shoot me? What kind of bow did he use and how did he acquire the ingredients used to make the poison? Such a man will die before getting the answers to his questions."

"It is no different for one who follows the Way. I teach only those things that are necessary to realize the Way. Things which are not helpful or necessary, I do not teach."

"Whether there is one god or many, whether the universe is finite or infinite, there is one truth you must accept, and that is the presence of suffering. Suffering has causes which can be illuminated in order to be removed. The things I teach will help you attain detachment, equanimity, peace and liberation. I refuse to speak about all those things which are not helpful in realizing the Way."
 
 
Quantum
10:00 / 05.07.06
No meaningful evidence? I'm afraid if you won't accept witness statements or second hand experience the only way I could provide evidence is to come round your house with the next Dalai Llama and a control llama and get you to do the tests yourself. Then you could make sure there was no prompting.

The things I teach will help you attain detachment, equanimity, peace and liberation.

That's why I'm not a Buddhist. I want engagement not detachment. How can you passionately love someone if you see that as an aspect of Samsara for example?
Just to avert misunderstanding, of course I am not saying Buddhists don't love, just that I find the doctrine of detachment and equanimity to oppose the more ecstatic path I personally choose, that of involvement and the embrace of joy and sufering, where the only bad passion is a lack of passion.
 
 
johnny enigma
10:20 / 05.07.06
Unfortunately, I don't have any "meaningful evidence" for everyone, but I do feel compelled to post.
I am still indecided on the subject of reincarnation. It's an idea I've considered possible many a time, but have not yet come to a final decision on.
However, I do feel there is a hell of a lot to be said about the concept of genetic memory. It seems entirely logical to me that the reason Norse mthology and runes resonate so deeply with me is to do with my genetic heritage - I'm pretty much convinced of this.
 
  

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