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Mafia 5: Che cosa sara?

 
  

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bjacques
02:45 / 24.06.03
Count me in. If Heathers had been released 10 years earlier, I'd probably be in jail.
 
 
lolita nation
04:21 / 24.06.03
I think there's more strategy without the special characters, personally. It levels the playing field more, or whatever. When the innocents have detectives and stuff, they have a huge advantage. No one else thinks this? I mean, it is nice to get to be special, but (while we're on the subject of Heathers) fuck me gently with a chainsaw, do I look like Mother Teresa?

Also, some people seem to be signing up for Qalyn's game and some people for H.S. Mafia. What is going on? Mafia 5 is Qalyn's, right
 
 
Tezcatlipoca
05:02 / 24.06.03
*sigh* Chalk up my name for another premature death at the hands of an overly zealous lynch mob...
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
12:54 / 24.06.03
When the innocents have detectives and stuff, they have a huge advantage

Not really. I think most of it tends to backfire, while the mafia's two powers--killing a player every night, and cooperation--are tough to beat.

What is going on? Mafia 5 is Qalyn's, right

No way, dude. Whichever game people want is the one we should do.
 
 
Alphonse commands you!
14:38 / 24.06.03
Exactly. From what I've seen neither Detectives nor Doctor get lucky often enough for it to be a significant advantage for the innocents.

So when is the game starting? Or do we need more players?
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
15:15 / 24.06.03
Exactly! Do you see, lolita, do you see?!?

The game starts when we've got enough players. Last I counted there were 7 for mine, 10 or 11 for lolita's.

Bearing in mind that, for the most part, I selected the special roles to balance, if people really want fewer specials we could drop the Vampire/Governor from my game--I put them in for the funny, funny tide-turning effect and because, wih only two members each, the mafia are actually a bit disadvantaged. I figured the doctors/bulletproofs were needed with so many mafiosi, but maybe we could even lose the bulletproofs. The kingmaker, too, was only thrown in there because I thought it was cool. If we drop these characters, we could also make do with fewer players. I don't see as how the detectives really do that much, especially if the badguys are out for each other. In fact, I don't think the specials effect "strategy" that much, not in any quantitative way--maybe there are fewer wild accusations, but there's just as much hairy theorizing. They're an added wrinkle that mostly serve to entertain the referee.
 
 
lolita nation
21:19 / 24.06.03
No, I don't really. Pretend I am hugely simple-minded, because it's true, OK? So why should there be any more strategizing in a game with lots of special characters? It seems either that people are transparent about what they are, or it becomes easy to tell because they didn't die overnight or something, and then you have a lot less ambiguity to work with. In a game with detectives, when they die and you find out X and Y were innocent (even if they weren't lucky enough to finger a Mafia), there's immediately less guesswork and theorizing for the innocents to do. I think it'd be fun if there were absolutely no one anyone could trust, and I think that would lead everyone to have to think and strategize more.

Has anyone thought about not publishing the Detective's (or whoever's) identity/findings when they die? At least that way they would have to work to get everyone to trust them and the Mafia could pose as Detectives more easily.

Although I have to say that I agree with you Qalyn and Livedog about Doctors. They don't really skew the game for the villagers that much; they're just a waste of time.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
03:41 / 25.06.03
Yer, that could be fun... sort of the Bertold Brecht version, where everything is absurd and everyone dies.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
03:45 / 25.06.03
and

they're just a waste of time.

Isn't that sort of the point?
 
 
Alphonse commands you!
12:25 / 25.06.03
Games are, essentially, just an amusing waste of time: that's why we love 'em! I'll sign up for any shape or flavour of Mafia game going - and anyway what's wrong with running two of them simultaneously?
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
12:38 / 25.06.03
Sputter! Everything's wrong with that! Anyway, I think lolita and I might each be trying to convince everyone to join the other's game.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
12:46 / 25.06.03
I think special characters or lack thereof should be up to each individual Gamemaster. (hah!)

Probably, though I have no way of knowing this, they're unnecessary in real-life games, because it's easier to tell who is lying, but I think in the online game, the Village needs a slight upperhand. I think, at the very least, there should be a detective. Otherwise it's all just guessing, and there's no real strategy in that. Is there? Unless we just want to kill the people whose user-names annoy us... With the addition of characters like the bulletproof, and the fact that the detective's knowledge is revealed if the Mafia whacks him (which is something I invented during the first game because I thought the Mafia was going to crush the village), the Mafia has to be a little circumspect about who they target.
 
 
lolita nation
15:16 / 25.06.03
The mafia has to be circumspect in who they target anyway, though -- they have to target based on who has voiced suspicions of whom, who appears to trust whom, and all that stuff. Maybe I am bringing real-life Mafia into it too much, but having concrete knowledge of who anyone else is just seems to me to be against the whole concept of the game, which is based not just on guessing, but on guessing based on what people have said and how they have acted.

Whatever. Clearly I'm on the unpopular side of this question, so everyone should sign up for Qalyn's game. If it isn't obvious already, by the way, I pretty much always want the mafia to win, & though I will try to be objective, it's unlikely that I'll be giving the Villagers much of an upper hand. Just so everyone knows!
 
 
Ethan Hawke
15:31 / 25.06.03
Yeah, but w/r/t the Detective, ze may have concrete knowledge of who the mafia is, but in order to be successful they have to convince the other villagers that they're trustworthy, and figure out which other villagers are trustworthy. The Detective is in a cassandra-ish position. kinda. sorta.

I'll certainly play a non-special characters game, though, especially in real life, should such a thing happen. Even though you have clearly outed yourself as EVIL, with a capital E, V, I, and even capital L.
 
 
lolita nation
15:34 / 25.06.03
The detective would only be in a Cassandra position, which I could pretty much get behind, if everything they knew wasn't confirmed at their death.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
15:47 / 25.06.03
Clearly I'm on the unpopular side of this question, so everyone should sign up for Qalyn's game

Yeah, but I'm an unreliable flake with an almost pathological need to create embarrassing paradoxes that amuse only me--I wouldn't put it past me to make every single player mafia, or none of them and randomly select a person to get killed every night. So, yeah, everyone sign up for lolita's game. At least you'll know what you're in for.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
15:51 / 25.06.03
or none of them and randomly select a person to get killed every night.

That would really be an awesome game. Beckett or Kafka crossed with Mafia. But now you've spoiled it.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
15:58 / 25.06.03
Aha! That's just what I want you to think!

Or is it?
 
 
C.Elseware
19:27 / 25.06.03
I don't mind which game I play in as I've not played before so expect to be brutally exploited and then done away with (if I'm lucky; in that order).

I think that the detective adds a good poker element for both mafia and detective. Most other classes seem a bit less interesting. Unless it's worth somebody bluffing that they are/are not that type then it's not adding much.
 
 
grant
21:13 / 25.06.03
having concrete knowledge of who anyone else is just seems to me to be against the whole concept of the game, which is based not just on guessing, but on guessing based on what people have said and how they have acted.


The problem online is "what people have said and how they have acted." Because you just don't say much or act much when you're online, unless there's some other element. Personally, I like the idea of there at least being a detective because it gives people something to talk/act about... believe PlayerX or don't believe PlayerX.

I wonder, though. I'd be willing to try a no-detective game, just to see what would happen.
 
 
Rev. Orr
23:45 / 25.06.03
Just to add my twopenneth. If lolita is still agreeable to co-hosting a match, then we (and by we I mean everyone other than me) had better go with the Qalyn bells and whistles duluxe edition first. Short-staffed at work has blown into threatened industrial action at work with me caught in the middle. I'm not going to be available for a couple of weeks. Could be that nobody cares, of course, but from this angle it looks like a point in the Q-plan's favour.

As for the rest of my loose change - I remain unconvinced that either approach is better but we have seen so far that the decisions and structure imposed by each mayor has had a drastic effect on the gameplay. I rather thought that this was one of the joys of the game in that it had a different flavour each time even ignoring the different settings. Playing with nothing more than the mafia and a large group of innocents is, in a sense, the purists version. The co-operation of the mafia pitted against the weight of numbers of the villagers. However, no matter how well the mafia do to begin with, in order to win, they have to master the end game when numbers are more even, but there is plenty of 'evidence' to manipulate. As the numbers start to even out, it becomes increasingly hard to conceal the mafias actions and the last couple of votes will always come down to how well they can baboozle the village into chasing ghosts. If one allows enquiring characters such as dectectives and finks, then one has to speed up the death rate by including a vigilante. If you want to have turn coats like the vampire or the changeling then you have to have protectors like the doctor, governor, angel and so on. It all comes down to balance - setting up the game so that the players go into the final rounds of lynching without too much or too little information to give both sides an even chance of victory.

As far as I can work out this can be achieved either by stuffing a smaller playing field with more 'specials' or by gathering more players and only having the mafia. Two very different approaches, but the same end in view.

As for the speed of the game, I would agree that a shorter time between rounds would be nice, but I think that there should be more time allowed in the early stages to accomodate the larger number of players. Previous games have only bogged down in the second half when most of the action is taking place off the thread and there are fewer votes to wait for. Shortening the intervals between lynchings might also add to the gorwing feeling of paranoia and tension. As long as everyone is clear as to when the next deadline is then it should all be fair.

On the other hand, I may just be getting a tad obsessive again...
 
 
Whisky Priestess
07:06 / 26.06.03
Anyone fancy a game of virtual Big Brother, while the Mafia thing is being sorted out? I suggest:

- Weekly tasks should be real (discovering certain information, creating things (Photoshop pictures) or working out logic puzzles.

- Nominations and Evictions should be twice-weekly as a testing ground for doing the same thing in Mafia

- Evictions should be decided by the public, i.e. non-players, and sent to BB via PM.

I'm not sure about what forms of punishment BB could mete out were the housemates to fail a task. I think BB would have to be a moderator so that (say) ze could insert the word "sausage" into every sentence posted by disobedient housemates or limit their posts to 20 words or less or whatever.

Thoughts?
 
 
Baz Auckland
10:31 / 26.06.03
I've never seen BB, but that sounds great! I'm sure there would be no lack of non-players here willing to vote...
 
 
C.Elseware
16:30 / 26.06.03
He he he. One idea for the mafia game: There are 2 or more mafia, 1 or more innocent villagers, 0 or more doctors, detectives, finks etc.

The person running the game picks/randomises IF there are any of each type...

Another suggestion for special characters: Sleepers & Controller. The controller is a member of the mafia, the sleepers are any non-mafia, so they could be innocent, doctor, detective, etc. The controller can use their sleepers once each to whack somebody, but not in the first few rounds. If the sleeper is killed before they are used then the controller doesn't get use that one.

The sleeper does not *know* they are a sleeper. The controller knows who all the sleepers are.

The idenity of a sleeper is revealed if they are killed OR are used to perform a hit.

This would add the interesting situation of the mafia wanting to protect some of the innocents, but only for so long...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:48 / 29.06.03
I'll join up for this game.

I'd prefer it if we did Lolita Nation's high school scenario.
 
 
lolita nation
22:10 / 29.06.03
I hope if I do high school Mafia, then someone chooses to be, like, a band nerd.
 
 
iconoplast
00:24 / 30.06.03
"...it's a souzaphone, not a Tuba."

I'm in.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
18:02 / 09.07.03
*bump*

Qalyn, Lolita no underscore here ok nation, what's the deal? Can you guys get it together or will I have to start cracking skulls?
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
18:24 / 09.07.03
The majority of interested parties want to play lolita's game, so crack her skull, not mine. I'm all, "schwoo, hardly anybody likes my idea so I'm off the hook," and she's all, "I'll just pretend the whole thing never came up and hope everyone forgets," and then she's all, "screw Barbelith, those guys are jerks and Todd is totally tweaked!"

For real, dude, she said that.
 
 
lolita nation
18:32 / 09.07.03
Yeah, I did.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
18:41 / 09.07.03
Tweaked?

schwoo?

I may have to start saying that.

Seriously, dudes - you guys volunteered. Do you want to be responsible for the Death of Barbelith Mafia and all that is Holy and Good? Am I going to have to host again? Because if I do, the theme will somehow involve degrading references to both of your persons.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
19:04 / 09.07.03
Not skeert.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
20:23 / 09.07.03
I'll be all like, hey, I'm totally too fuckin' cool for this shit, man, I'm just sittin' at the back, hangin' out till I can go smoke a fat one with my biker boyfriend, yeah, but I'll maybe sneak a glance or two from under my shades, like hang back and watch the shitstorm, yeah?
 
 
otherjerry & the unworkable siblings
05:07 / 11.07.03
is the moderator going to be the principal of the school, or is that part available?
 
 
C.Elseware
13:56 / 11.07.03
Are we there yet...?

When can we start. I was expecting to be unjustly killed weeks ago.
 
  

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