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U.S. Troops Shoot, Kill Two Protesters, Citing "Self-Defense" Against Rocks

 
  

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FinderWolf
14:12 / 18.06.03
This disgusts me. Yes, there was a violent protest (protesters throwing rocks at troops, trying to rock cars back and forth, shatter car windows, etc.) -- but how does that justify a US Captain saying it's "self defense" to shoot INTO A CROWD when the greatest threat to you as a heavily armed, likely armored soldier is a rock hitting you? Rocks & glass are not equivalent to bullets.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/870749.asp?vts=061820030755

Although I see both sides of the issue being protested - Iraqis seem to believe that we could solve all of the country's problems and snap our fingers and restore all jobs, infrastructure, etc. -- we can't. No one could. They said they want us out of Iraq - if we left now and gave them what they wanted, the civil unrest would be even worse with no organizing structure or government there at all. Leaving them in the midst of anarchy and chaos would be worse than how things are now.
 
 
Salamander
14:30 / 18.06.03
Granted the slayings were uncalled for, but have you ever been hit with a rock by someone who ment to bean you?
 
 
sleazenation
14:54 / 18.06.03
better yet the crowd in question were soldiers wanting to know what they were supposed to do for money since the occupying US regieme disbanded the Iraqi Army last month...
 
 
FinderWolf
16:26 / 18.06.03
Why not tear gas then or something else -- rubber bullets, for example, Hermes?
 
 
specofdust
16:39 / 18.06.03
The standard U.S. soldier in Iraq won't be issued with either tear gas or rubber bullets, both are used mainly by police forces not armies. Also, as Hermes says, a rock can be a dangerous, the soldiers aren't armored, they just have a few layers of clothing on, and possibly a helmet. So, I think the U.S. soldiers probably acted fairly in this particular case.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
16:43 / 18.06.03
Iraqis seem to believe that we could solve all of the country's problems and snap our fingers and restore all jobs, infrastructure, etc. -- we can't. No one could.

True enough, but the coalition governments were certainly doing their best to give the impression that they could before the war, and I don't blame the Iraqis for being pissed off - the coalition forces seem to have been unprepared for the scale of damage to the infrastructure. I hear that a further US division is being sent out earlier than planned, and that the division in the North (forget which one it is - will try and find link) is being kept on longer than was originally planned. None of this has been mitigated by the Pentagon heads' policy of using as few ground troops as possible - it has meant that civil order has been harder to establish than it need have been. Apparently the lack of internal coherence in the coalition occupation administration is such that salaries are unpaid because they can't decide whether to pay them in dollars, Saddam's currency or another form of Iraqi currency (dinar? Must find that sodding link... will be back...)
 
 
diz
19:07 / 18.06.03
Although I see both sides of the issue being protested - Iraqis seem to believe that we could solve all of the country's problems and snap our fingers and restore all jobs, infrastructure, etc. -- we can't. No one could. They said they want us out of Iraq - if we left now and gave them what they wanted, the civil unrest would be even worse with no organizing structure or government there at all. Leaving them in the midst of anarchy and chaos would be worse than how things are now.

true enough, but, then again, the US created the civil unrest in the first place, first with the sanctions and then by invading the country. i think it's entirely reasonable for them to expect us to clean up our mess and to hold us responsible for the problems we've caused.

Granted the slayings were uncalled for, but have you ever been hit with a rock by someone who ment to bean you?

yes, actually. it hurt like hell. however, i wasn't wearing a kevlar helmet, i didn't have a gun, and, well, i wasn't a conqueror occupying anyone's country by force. i think the coalition troops have more than a few rocks coming to them, and justifiably so.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:24 / 18.06.03
>> true enough, but, then again, the US created the civil unrest in the first place, first with the sanctions and then by invading the country. i think it's entirely reasonable for them to expect us to clean up our mess and to hold us responsible for the problems we've caused.

I agree with you completely -- I'm saying that the US *IS* trying to be responsible and clean up our mess, secure order and establish a working government. And the Iraqis thinking that can be done in a month or two is entirely unrealistic. And the Iraqis wanting us to either snap our fingers and fix everything immediately or get the hell out are both unrealistic goals. But then again, I can't blame them for thinking irrationally - they're starving in a war-torn, chaotic country whose future is very much up in the air right now.

The US is realizing that it'll take much longer than they thought to do the above. However, I didn't read or hear anything in all the pre-war talk saying that creating a new government and restoring order in a chaotic country would be easy or take a very short amount of time. I would take issue with the notion that the US said it would be simple to restore order and set up a new govt.

So they are understandably angry, upset, hunry, frustrated -- but if we give them what they say they want, namely for us to leave them alone immediately and end the occupation, it'll be even worse for them because all their problems are nowhere near being solved.

One might argue the sanctions were caused not by the US or the UN, but by Hussein refusing to acknowledge the UN's legal demands for regular and thorough weapons inspection. Hussein also didn't acknowledge the no-fly zones set up after the first Gulf War and regularly shot at US and British air patrols in that zone.

I'm a liberal Democrat who does NOT like Bush but thinks that the war was pretty justified, since Hussein really never complied with the UN mandate in full, and he could have avoided it by not putting up such resistence in following the rules of the inspections to the letter. The way Bush was so hungry for the war really disturbed me, though, as did the way he handled dissenting nations in the UN. And it also disturbed me the way he played the Sept. 11th card a lot when this was about a country not submitting to UN-mandated weapons inspections, not about Sept. 11th. Iraq also clearly has either no connection with Al Qaeda or the a very very very tiny one.

And yes, you read the story right a few days ago, Kit-Kat - the US eventually relented and printed up a whole bunch of Saddam's currency. They were upset about having to keep currency with Saddam's head all over it in circulation, but they saw the need to get some currency in the system QUICK and pay these poor people.
 
 
Linus Dunce
23:11 / 18.06.03
true enough, but, then again, the US created the civil unrest in the first place, first with the sanctions and then by invading the country.

See, as European liberal (or maybe not in the eye of the beholder) as I am, I just don't get these "US created this, US created that" arguments. Sure, they've created situations where things are more likely to go wrong and history's not going to treat them kindly, but it's the locals on the ground that have actually pulled the trigger/fingernails/detonator. Or in this case, thrown rocks at armed soldiers. There is some culpability there. They are not moral children.

It's not entirely fair these people were shot. But I doubt they were gently lobbing those rocks in a playful fashion. A rock in the face at speed will, I guess, easily and painfully blind you (tissue damage/swelling, leaking blood) so that you are defenceless even to stop someone taking your gun and shooting you with it. So what do you do?
 
 
jeff
00:08 / 19.06.03
Well, Perhaps being a cowardly lion I can't see straight, but it seems to me that throwing rocks at a gunman (for that describes most soldiers) is equivalent to jumping off a cliff. Tempting but painful.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:41 / 19.06.03
The standard U.S. soldier in Iraq won't be issued with either tear gas or rubber bullets, both are used mainly by police forces not armies.

Which is indeed true, but begs the question why not? Surely an element of crowd control might have been anticipated... this has been going on for a while now.
 
 
GreenMann
11:10 / 19.06.03
Never in my life have I heard of a stone or a rock in the face killing anyone, although i have no doubt that serious injury can be caused by this...but responding with live amunition against legitimate protests is excessive force at best, murderous at worst.

The trouble is that the US army, utterly brainwashed by its own arrogant propaganda, is now faced with a 100% hostile Iraqi population. There never were any cheering masses of people celebrating their liberation by the US. On the contrary, whether we like it or not - and I personally opposed the Saddam dictatorship when he was best buddy of the West - life was actually BETTER under the Socialist Baath Party's society than US occupation.

Popular Iraqi resistance is increasing day on day, not for Saddam (despite what the censored US media say) but because the US is even more loathed than Saddam was.
 
 
_Boboss
11:14 / 19.06.03
have any of those drugfucked american soldiers been killed today? it's fucking brilliant when that happens that is
 
 
GreenMann
11:32 / 19.06.03
The US says this is a 5 year occupation, at least. Iraqis are a well-educated people who fully understand the real reasons for the Anglo-US occupation: oil and greater security for Israel.

Even the Vietnamese welcomed US troops against the socialist enemy in the north; Irish nationalists also celebrated the arrival of British troops to protect them from the Loyalist state...but Iraqis haven't fallen for any of these tricks - they know why they are under US occupation better than the US troops themselves. For example, most US troops are, apparently, unaware that one of the first actions by US contractors was to start building an oil pipeline direct to Israel - Iraqis were informed by Al-Jezeera and other Arab media organisations.

In the case of Iraq, the majority of the population is already seething with hatred against the occupation - this stage took years in the cases of Vietnam and Ireland.

The US neocons have set the Middle East ablaze in their arrogant ambition to rule the world by force, but, 'what goes around comes around' and I believe (or rather, hope) Iraq will blow up in their faces.
 
 
GreenMann
11:34 / 19.06.03
The US says this is a 5 year occupation, at least. Iraqis are a well-educated people who fully understand the real reasons for the Anglo-US occupation: oil and greater security for Israel.

Even the Vietnamese welcomed US troops against the socialist enemy in the north; Irish nationalists also celebrated the arrival of British troops to protect them from the Loyalist state...but Iraqis haven't fallen for any of these tricks - they know why they are under US occupation better than the US troops themselves. For example, most US troops are, apparently, unaware that one of the first actions by US contractors was to start building an oil pipeline direct to Israel - Iraqis were informed by Al-Jezeera and other Arab media organisations.

In the case of Iraq, the majority of the population is already seething with hatred against the occupation - this stage took years in the cases of Vietnam and Ireland.

The US neocons have set the Middle East ablaze in their arrogant ambition to rule the world by force, but, 'what goes around comes around' and I believe (or rather, hope) Iraq will trigger world revolution (all right, I know it's old-fashioned, but it's still possible).
 
 
Baz Auckland
14:26 / 19.06.03
GreenMann: How do you know that much of the population is against them? I know there are large parts that are hostile to the armies, but I doubt it's near 100%, especially in the Kurdish north...

Legitimate protest is one thing. Throwing rocks at armed soldiers is suicidal.
 
 
diz
15:52 / 19.06.03
One might argue the sanctions were caused not by the US or the UN, but by Hussein refusing to acknowledge the UN's legal demands for regular and thorough weapons inspection.

one might argue that if one were misinformed, yes.

actually, the US withdrew weapons inspectors. they were enver kicked out. that's one of the biggest and most widely-spread pieces of misinformation in this whole affair.

everyone except the US and the UK were satisfied that Iraq was sufficiently disarmed by the mid-90s, and had been leaning on the US to lift the sanctions since that point, since they were unjustified, unnecessary, and essentially genocidal.

Hussein also didn't acknowledge the no-fly zones set up after the first Gulf War and regularly shot at US and British air patrols in that zone.

that's because THEY WERE ILLEGAL! NO ONE except for the US and the UK acknowledged the no-fly zones. British and American planes were shot at because they were illegally trespassing in someone else's airspace.

So they are understandably angry, upset, hunry, frustrated -- but if we give them what they say they want, namely for us to leave them alone immediately and end the occupation, it'll be even worse for them because all their problems are nowhere near being solved.

well, that's true, now. but that state of affairs is a direct result of coalition action. if i break into your house, and you throw a lamp at me, i can't shoot you and claim it was self-defense. i created the situation which forced you to defend yourself by whatever means were at hand.

the costs and dangers of administrating a post-war Iraq are fully the responsibility of the coalition forces, because they caused this situation. that includes casualties. you can't invade someone else's country and then claim that you had the right to kill the defenders of that country in self-defense. that's ludicrous.

Legitimate protest is one thing.

Coalition forces are involved in an illegal occupation. they have already murdered thousands of people and should be expected to murder more as it continues. the Iraqis would be justified in killing every last person involved in said occupation as an act of self-defense. Coalition forces, on the other hand, gave up the right to claim self-defense when they invaded a sovereign country in violation of international laws and started murdering people.

anything the Iraqis do to resist the occupier is justified. military or paramilitary resistance, terrorism, thrown rocks. personally, i hope they kill every last motherfucker in a coalition uniform who sets foot in Iraq. they can take and whatever oil company stooges have been sent over, too.

Throwing rocks at armed soldiers is suicidal.

well, i never said it was smart, only justified.
 
 
Linus Dunce
17:59 / 19.06.03
Throwing rocks at armed soldiers is suicidal.

well, i never said it was smart, only justified.


Being suicidal doesn't make one stupid. One could be entirely aware of the possible consequences of assaulting armed soldiers. In a large crowd, the odds of an individual surviving aren't too bad ...
 
 
FinderWolf
19:27 / 19.06.03
>> Hussein also didn't acknowledge the no-fly zones set up after the first Gulf War and regularly shot at US and British air patrols in that zone.

that's because THEY WERE ILLEGAL! NO ONE except for the US and the UK acknowledged the no-fly zones. British and American planes were shot at because they were illegally trespassing in someone else's airspace.

I'd love to see some documentation on this. I believe you, Dis, I'd just like to learn more about the facts. Weren't the no-fly zones part of the terms of settlement? Wouldn't other countries have to agree to those terms as well? Who set up those terms? I don't recall hearing about debate from other countries about the no-fly zones.

>> actually, the US withdrew weapons inspectors. they were enver kicked out. that's one of the biggest and most widely-spread pieces of misinformation in this whole affair.

everyone except the US and the UK were satisfied that Iraq was sufficiently disarmed by the mid-90s, and had been leaning on the US to lift the sanctions since that point, since they were unjustified, unnecessary, and essentially genocidal.

I was actually for lifting the sanctions in the past 5 years; since clearly they were harming the people and not really hurting Saddam's government at all.

Didn't the US withdraw the inspectors because they felt the inspectors were being impeded and not given full and unfettered access? And weren't the inpsectors a UN, not a US, team back then? I'm not clear on this.
 
 
Baz Auckland
05:26 / 20.06.03
I'm probably wrong, but I remember the inspectors were kicked out the time before last by Iraq for spying....which some of the inspectors admitted was true.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:45 / 20.06.03
[Note: this is a long post, but I've tried to break it up for easy reading, and I promise it's worth your while.]

First: weapons inspectors were spying on Iraq:

The original article is now gone from the Guardian website (that's normal purging of old articles, by the way), but there's a quote at Medialens:

"American espionage in Iraq, under cover of United Nations weapons inspections, went far beyond the search for banned arms and was carried out without the knowledge of the UN leadership, it was reported yesterday. An investigation by the Washington Post found that CIA engineers working as UN technicians installed antennae in equipment belonging to the UN Special Commission (Unscom) to eavesdrop on the Iraqi military." (Julian Borger, 'UN "kept in dark" about US spying in Iraq', The Guardian, March 3, 1999)

Both Medialens and Fair.org have recently objected to that apparent vanishing of this story from major newspapers. See here and here.

No-Fly Zones:

Globalpolicy.org says: "In April 1991, claiming a false authority under Security Council Resolution 688, the US, UK and France began to patrol the skies over northern Iraq, excluding Iraqi aircraft from this zone. The same powers started to enforce a second “no fly” zone in southern Iraq a few months later."

More here - with links.

See also John Pilger's website: "Last August, the defence minister John Spellar described the no-fly zones over Iraq as "international zones, designed by the international community". This is false. Imposed and enforced only by the United States and Britain, these zones have never been ratified by the United Nations and have no basis in international law."

HunterWolf: One might argue the sanctions were caused not by the US or the UN, but by Hussein refusing to acknowledge the UN's legal demands for regular and thorough weapons inspection.

This has been argued a great deal. It's odious, however, for a couple of reasons. First and foremost is that it's the old playground favourite: now look what you made me do! You wouldn't give me your pocketmoney, so I had to break your face open. Second, if you want to get into blame here, the western powers - with special mention to the US and UK, as ever, but closely followed by France, Germany, and every other idiot - created and supplied Saddam Hussein for years.

Anyone suggesting that the Iraqis are being unreasonable about the length of time necessary for the US to sort out the occupation (and do remember that we and they were told repeatedly that it would months rather than years: Washington Post", MSNBC) should understand that the tyrant who has just been removed was our gift to the Iraqi people, pure and simple, and a triumph of our diplomatic and espionage efforts during the Cold War. If the Iraqis feel that we've stuck our noses into their lives enough, this might just be why.

Or it could be that, if the West really gave a damn about the suffering of common Iraqis, our governments would not have done their best to wreck the 'Oil For Food' programme. Two successive UN humanitarian coordinators for Iraq quit in protest, and wrote about the situtation: "The most recent report of the UN secretary-general, in October 2001, says that the US and UK governments' blocking of $4bn of humanitarian supplies is by far the greatest constraint on the implementation of the oil-for-food program. The report says that, in contrast, the Iraqi government's distribution of humanitarian supplies is fully satisfactory (as it was when we headed this program). The death of some 5-6,000 children a month is mostly due to contaminated water, lack of medicines and malnutrition. The US and UK governments' delayed clearance of equipment and materials is responsible for this tragedy, not Baghdad."

HunterWolf: I'm a liberal Democrat who does NOT like Bush but thinks that the war was pretty justified, since Hussein really never complied with the UN mandate in full, and he could have avoided it by not putting up such resistence in following the rules of the inspections to the letter.

You're far from unique. However, look a little deeper and your position may change. Take biological weapons, for example, which scare me spitless and did the same to the UN when Powell pointed out how many gallons of Iraqi Anthrax were not accounted for. The redoutable Scott Ritter speaks: "How can Iraq have viable stockpiles of anthrax? They cannot. So for the U.S. and others, at this point in time, to be focused on 25,000 liters of unaccounted for anthrax is absurd in the extreme, because those 25,000 liters cannot physically exist today. Liquid bulk anthrax deteriorates after 3 years."

Many of the justifications for the war are extremely shaky at best. The humanitarian one that Hussein was (and is) a monster has always seemed to me the strongest, but that is not a legal ground for invading a country. Never mind that he's our monster... But in any case, the human price may turn out to be very much higher - not just in Iraq, but elsewhere in the region and the world. Recall that one of Osama Bin Laden's reasons for attacking the WTC was the US troops in Saudi Arabia - which are now, ironically, being withdrawn. Certainly, it has distracted from an increasingly pathetic situation in Afghanistan, much like the one which allowed the Taliban to come to power in the first place. It may also have started a new WMD arms race, as smaller nations seek to produce a force which will deter any invasion.

The US soldiers who fired into the crowd are part of a far larger picture of mishandling, neglect, incompetence and even deception in which our governments are thoroughly implicated. There will be 'blowback', and it may be very painful indeed.
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
10:35 / 20.06.03
One of the big problems at the moment is the Americans and, to some extent the British, particularly the Americans in Baghdad. They're all ensconced in this chic gleaming marble palace, largest, most expensive palace. There they sit with their laptops trying to work out with Washington how they're going to bring about this new democracy in Iraq. They rely upon for the most part former Iraqi exiles who never endured Saddam Hussein, who are hovering around making sure that they get the biggest part of the pie if possible. When they leave the palace, when they go into the streets of Baghdad, the dangerous streets of Baghdad, they leave in these armored black Mercedes with gunmen in the front and back, soldiers, plain clothes guys with weapons and sunglasses.


One Iraqi said to me the other day, who did you think was the last person we saw driving through town like [this]? I said, Saddam Hussein? They all burst out laughing, of course, they said, exactly the same.


full article here
 
 
FinderWolf
15:19 / 20.06.03
You make excellent points, Nick, and I honestly am starting to agree with them more and more. I've read a lot about these issues & points and always agreed with them quite a bit, but not enough to really make me change my position entirely. But the more and more I read, the more and more I see the plain facts in all of this.

I had forgotten about the spying, which makes perfect sense. And thanks for the info. about the US and UK being the only ones to support the no-fly zones, which was something I didn't know. And I was defintely for lifting the sanctions over the past few years, and even wrote an e-mail about a year or two ago to Colin Powell, Pres. Bush and VP Cheney asking them to lift the sanctions on Iraq.
 
 
mosh
12:16 / 23.06.03
If you remember, there are two armies currently occupying/maintaining Iraq, the US and the British. You don't hear about the British force because, whatever their legitimacy, they are doing a good job. As an Irishman, I don't particularly like the fact that the British Army has controlled large portions of Northern Ireland by putting heavily armed troops in populated areas, but they are experienced at it, and know how not to offend the locals. Well, the moderate majority anyway. The fact that the Iraqis have accepted them in the south of Iraq shows that they are sensitive to the feelings of the people who lived under Saddam's military rule for 30 years.

America knows this too, and they knew it before they began to police Iraq. The point is not whether or not the US is doing what is right in Iraq, but that *they could do it more humanely*, just by asking the Brits "how?". They are choosing conflict over peaceful policing. This is inexcusable.

What's more (and I haven't seen it mention on the thread) US soldiers are confiscating all money found in raids on the basis that it is being used to fund terrorism. (Of course, no one would dislike the US without being paid to!) What if it's not funding terrorism?

If I were in Iraq for the past 10 years, I would have not used banks; I would have kept my life savings in cash, preferably in the standard black market currency of US Dollars. So if US soldiers search an innocent's house, and find *any* cash, they are most likely confiscating families' life savings!

This is not good PR. Bad PR in Iraq now will kill people, American and Iraqi. Perhaps the Brits could have told them this?
 
 
Jack Fear
14:49 / 23.06.03
What's more (and I haven't seen it mention on the thread) US soldiers are confiscating all money found in raids...

That's news to me. Got a link?
 
 
mosh
17:23 / 23.06.03
"One accusation that surfaces regularly is that the Americans are stealing money during the searches, which occur almost daily in the city. In fact, what happens is that all large sums of cash that are found are seized for fear they will be used to buy guns.

The money may sometimes be for buying guns, but in most cases there is a more innocent reason for the stashes. With no banking system to speak of, most Iraqis have nowhere to put their money. Most withdrew their savings before the war and hid them in mattresses. "
--http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,982699,00.html
(a good overall summery of US actions)

--http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/0,2759,423009,00.html
All of the guardian's articles on iraq.

Most of the information I read on the confiscation of money was through the associated press newsfeed, and AFAIK they don't provide free archives so I can't link. From memory, I first saw it in their reporting of the "Desert Scorpion" operation.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
17:43 / 23.06.03
Jack - there was a story in the news over the weekend about a botched attempt to return a house to its owner and remove a Baath party member. Sadly, troops crashed through the wall of the house in an APV, arrested a lot of bearded chaps and put them in plastic cuffs, then taped up the mouth of the leader who tried to say something, and carted him off. They also confiscated $150,000, and re-installed the previous tennant.

Of course, the man they arrested was the owner of the house, the previous tennant was the Baathist, and to make matters worse, the owner was (I think) Sayed Mohammed Baqir Al-Hakim, leader of SCIRI, who may be the next Iraqi leader, and who speaks perfect English - if only they hadn't taped his mouth shut.

At the time I heard the story, apologies were flowing freely, but there was a problem with the money: only $100,000 could been found.

Can't find a link, though - anyone?
 
 
Jack Fear
19:23 / 23.06.03
%%Niiiiiiiiiiiiice.%%
 
 
Char Aina
01:25 / 24.06.03
the troops might not have tear gas because they are bound by a treaty not to use it in a military setting.

i think it's connected to biological and gas weapons.
 
 
mosh
07:47 / 24.06.03
The war has been declared over, and the Geneva convention's restrictions change. You have to release prisoners of war, and are obliged to create a safe environment, ectera. But anyway, the Army is no longer in a war setting, so they can use tear gas in their policing.

BTW, don't be so sure tear gas and rubber bullets are much better then live rounds, they can still kill if the person using them wants to. (A rubber bullet in the head from under 10 meters will kill you. So if they aim..)

Amazing about that house. You have to wonder who's pockets are bulging from all this confiscated money, it won't be Iraq's population...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:52 / 24.06.03
If the war's over, then the airstrike against the convoy thought to contain Saddam Hussein was not a legitimate military action, but an assassination attempt.
 
 
mosh
11:11 / 24.06.03
Sure. As were the missile strikes against Bin Laden in 98, and numerous Israel actions against Hamas and the Palestinians, and a lot of what's gone on in Chechnya over the past 5 years.

Unfortunately, in defending democracy, people tend to forget what it is: treating each human as worthwhile and equal. The reason the US is better then Iraq was under Saddam is that it's citizen's get a fair trial, can vote, and are able to say what they think. The US no longer thinks that foreigners should be given those rights.

More interesting then the assassination attempt, US soldiers got into a firefight with Syrian border guards. Syria actually *does* sponsor terrorism, but has aimed at Israel not the US in the past, what if that changes?

As a side note, you can blame the US for all this. (I think this was the point of the thread at some point) The US paid Saddam Hussein to attempt to assassinate the previous President of Iraq in the 60s, and when he failed they looked after him in exile for 4 years. They also paid Osama Bin Laden to fight the Soviets, arming, training, and even building that mountain complex for the Mujahadin. They also support the Israeli military, which in turn founded Hamas, believe it or not, to try to weaken the PLO (Arafat's group). The irony is that they now tell Arafat he must control Hamas to gain peace, and say Hussein and Bin Laden threaten world peace! Today, they fund the warlords of Afghanistan, showing they have learnt nothing.
 
 
GreenMann
11:37 / 24.06.03
Barry Auckland: I understand that most of the Iraqi population is against US troops from mainstream UK and European news reports and independent news sources. I don't know which news sources you access, but evidence of Iraq hostility to the invaders is overwhelming, just read any objective news source, the independent, the guardian, the mirror, BBC, Indynews to name but a few.

Unless you have the misfortune to have to rely on US news reports, you would know that the clear message coming out of Iraq is that armed resistance and social opposition to the occupation is increasing daily, NOT for a restoration of the hated Saddam regime, but to kick out the even more hated Americans and arse-licker Brits.

The Kurds have been bought off with US promises of a new homeland and they have no great love of Saddam after so many years of persecution, but have as much credibility in Arab eyes as Quisling had in Nazi-occupied Norway. But the Shia, the great anti-Saddam hope of the US, 2nd class citizens under Saddam, will not accept the 30 pieces of US silver and are just as determined to expell the US invader as their Sunni neighbours.

You say "Legitimate protest is one thing. Throwing rocks at armed soldiers is suicidal". Suicidal? Mmmm...interesting take on military repression of social protest. I always thought that shooting into crowds of protestors, stones or no stones, was called murder and completely alien to democratic society.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
13:39 / 24.06.03
I can't really get any kind of grip on the humanitarian situation in Iraq right now (though I 'll admit I've not been looking that hard). Normally after one of these efforts the papers and TV are full of reports of how many tons of food and medicine and whatnot has been shipped in, blah blah blah. All I've seen so far is how badly fundamental services have deteriorated over the weeks and years. Hospitals running out of medicine, that kind of thing, but never any details on what's being done to fix things. Oh, apart from getting a railway line fixed, which must be just as handy for the military as it is for the civilians.

So is short-term relief actually happening, or are the UK/US forces just trying to stop the country imploding until they can pass full responsibility (and blame, but presumably not freedom) over to the new government? I've heard more than I want to about Bechtel et al going out to "rebuild" the country, but is that happening or are they waiting for the dust to settle first?

Lazy way to get an education, I know.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:08 / 24.06.03
Red Cross Iraq Page

Go read.
 
  

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