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E-Prime, an understanding

 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
23:20 / 17.06.03
I've heard of this revamped form of English. I think it's called E-Prime, but I'm not sure. It's basically English without the word "is". Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Does anyone have any information on it?
 
 
w1rebaby
23:56 / 17.06.03
I first encountered it from Robert Anton Wilson. His article is a pretty good one, I think.

Despite the fact that I abhor RAW's fiction, I was reading this at the same time as studying the philosophy of science and for some reason it had quite an effect on me; I still try to avoid definitely saying something "is" something, which makes me sound a bit pathetic and unsure of myself, really.
 
 
illmatic
07:27 / 18.06.03
If I'm not mistaken AE Van Vogt also uses the idea of E Prime but I can't recall where. Pete Caroll (biggo Chaos Mage) also makes uses of some of these ideas, in his last book, Psybermagick, though your probably better off flicking through it in a bookshop. It's a bit of a short tome.

Has anyone here actually read Korbyzski? - Science & Sanity has been on my "to get" list for sometime now. Any impressions?
 
 
Quantum
09:52 / 19.06.03
RAW has a chapter on it in 'Quantum Psychology' and made a big impression on me (I was studying Philosophy of science at the time as well). I think he got the idea from Van Vogt, although I may be mistaken.

For example, if you say 'the photon is a wave' and I say 'the photon is a particle' we appear to disagree. If we rephrase to say 'The photon under certain conditions behaves like a wave' and 'the photon under certain conditions behaves like a particle' then we don't disagree, and in fact get closer to the truth.
 
 
illmatic
11:10 / 19.06.03
RAW got it from Korbyzski - he recounts somewhere reading "Science and Sanity" in a weekend, which is frightening bearing in mind the size of it (800+ pages)
 
 
Quantum
12:11 / 19.06.03
Now there's a challenge! Sounds like I need to read science&sanity, I think I'll order it from the library...
 
 
Linus Dunce
18:16 / 19.06.03
"Hugo and Nebula Award-winning author" David Gerrold reckoned it was devised by D. David Bourland Jr. in order to avoid the "linguistic trap" that the verb creates -- nothing ever "is" because the world is continually changing. Avoiding the verb was also supposed to make snappier, active sentences.

Funnily enough, an "E-Prime" signed up on Barbelith not long ago I think. Maybe they will make an appearance here. :-)
 
 
—| x |—
21:41 / 19.06.03
Well, I too have been exposed to E-Prime mostly through the work of RAW. There appears to be a certain liberation from traps that are created by linguistic representation of being. That is, by negating the use of “is” we move to (re)present our experiences via language in a more careful and a sensible manner: we don’t make claims about what is, but we make claims about how things appear to us. This fits nicely with RAW’s distinction between etic and emic reality. While such a distinction is useful in some circumstances it is not useful in all circumstances. I comment briefly on this here.

It seems to me the big thing about E-Prime is that it avoids the formulation of “absolute” claims. We learn to negate the use of certain bits of language to better (re)present our interpretation of phenomena. Words like ‘all’, ‘never’, ‘always’, ‘forever’, etc. are dropped from use along with various conjugations of the verb “to be” operating as the main verb of a given sentence.

Now, as has been mentioned directly above, problems occur as a function of the way our language comes to (re)present experience. Our language is structured on reflecting a ‘Subject’-‘Verb’-‘Object’ interpretation of reality. However, things are (or in E-Prime "seem to be") always changing—there doesn’t appear to be anything static in the universe. Thus, not only does the verb “to be” seem to give a false impression of unchanging or fixed phenomena, I’d argue that any noun or pronoun (Subject &/v Object word) also does the same thing. This might tie into the discussion that Quantum and I are currently having in the “What is ‘this’” thread.

While E-Prime appears to be an interesting development in language, it also appears to me to be bulky and often workable only with a linguistic flexibility that is on par with a contortion artist’s limber body. What I mean is that it appears to be too difficult and unworkable to use in every linguistic act that an individual might need to perform. For example let’s say that I formulate the following sentence based upon my interpretation of my experience:

“While the sun was shinning brightly on this Thursday afternoon I had the pleasure of seeing one of the neighbourhood rabbits hop gingerly across the lawn, pausing to eat some grass before scooting off behind the fence of our next door neighbour’s yard.”

Now, to truly rewrite this sentence in E-Prime seems to be a freakin’ nightmare! To really stick to the criteria of E-Prime, I’d have to cash out every noun with a variation of some combination of words. For example, instead of employing nouns such as “the sun” or “the lawn” I have to alter how these phenomena of my experience are expressed in language: every noun presupposes existence—a form of “to be”, after all. So, I’d have to say something like:

“While a phenomena that appears to me as what gets commonly called “the sun” seemed to me to be [notice here that “to be” is still present in E-Prime, however, the main verb becomes “seems” and “to be” becomes subjugated to that verb] expressing an action called “shinning” on what appears to be Thursday afternoon I seemed to have something commonly referred to as “pleasure” when it appeared to me that I saw a phenomena called “a rabbit” which appeared to me to execute an action called “hopping” in manner which seemed to (re)present the motion commonly called “across” with respect to something that appeared to me to be “a lawn,”…

We can see that E-Prime is difficult and bulky, and it really chews up the parsimonious and poetic power of expression qua language (although, perhaps my E-Prime is merely inefficient because I don’t make a habit of using it in every circumstance!). Thus, while I think that certain problems that E-Prime intends to solve are worth trying to solve, it also seems to me that E-Prime is like a meat clever in its attempts to solve these problems. Perhaps a better way to go is not to alter the language so much as to alter our understanding of how are language functions to (re)present our experiences of phenomena. Put differently, we can still use language as it is, but perhaps need to alter the way we understand the bits of language that we use (bits like Objects, Verbs, and Subjects). By altering our understanding of how these aspects of syntax work to (re)produce our experiences we seem to be in a better position to avoid certain metaphysical traps that arise from linguistic expression.

That’s how I see it, anyway…
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
23:22 / 19.06.03
Wow, this is all really good stuff. Maybe there's a line drawn between what 0 is talking about and a softer, simpiler version ("E-Prime A" prehaps?)?
 
 
*
23:58 / 20.06.03
In my understanding of e-prime, "seems to be" does not constitute correct usage. People commonly use this as a cheat, thus negating the usefulness of this form of lingustic hacking. "x appears to me as y" technically works within the rules, but overuse of this structure allows it to take the place of the verb "to be", along with all the problems inherent in the former structure.

E-prime has some very useful qualities as a linguistic and cognitive exercise. Altering our use of the language seems to alter our understanding of it in a much more concrete way than merely talking about language. To my understanding, however, one can derive its benefits, at least in part, from practicing it as an exercise, rather than using it to replace english 2.2 (? by which I mean modern standard english). To this end, does anyone feel curious enough to want to start an e-prime practice thread?
 
 
paw
01:02 / 21.06.03
great idea entity, would be interested in participating
 
 
—| x |—
01:01 / 22.06.03
"In my understanding of e-prime, 'seems to be' does not constitute correct usage. People commonly use this as a cheat, thus negating the usefulness of this form of lingustic hacking. 'x appears to me as y' technically works within the rules, but overuse of this structure allows it to take the place of the verb "to be", along with all the problems inherent in the former structure."

Oh, I'd agree, but then the use of E-Prime seems to get even more unwieldy--what do you suggest as replacements for these "cheats"?
 
 
Simplist
15:14 / 22.06.03
I agree with >0< that E-Prime "is" hopelessly clunky to the extent that one attempts to replace every single instance of "to be" with a less absolutist formulation (as RAW, also my only source on E-Prime, explains it). Note that this requires never using is, was, were, will be, and so on. And it gets more complicated--does, for instance, my parenthetical aside two sentences ago qualify as E-Prime, or does the implied usage of "to be" (ie. "RAW, who is my only source on E-Prime") disqualify it as a "cheat"? Incidentally, as I understand it, E-Prime places the usage of "to be" entirely off limits, so modifying it with "seems" doesn't make the cut, ie. no "seems to be ok" or the implied form "seems ok". Writing in E-Prime does provide a challenge, and certainly has value as a consciousness-raising exercise, but adopting it entirely in all writing and speech may constitute a challenge producing more hardships than benefits in the final analysis (see for instance the convolutedness of this very sentence). I see E-Prime as a helpful thought experiment, and a valuable practical approach to the extent that its application doesn't obfuscate meaning unnecessarily, but certainly not something to rigidly adhere to at the expense of clear communication.
 
 
Professor Silly
16:42 / 22.06.03
"While the sun was shinning brightly on this Thursday afternoon I had the pleasure of seeing one of the neighbourhood rabbits hop gingerly across the lawn, pausing to eat some grass before scooting off behind the fence of our next door neighbour’s yard."

How about this: This Thursday afternoon, in the bright sun, I had the...etc.

I think E-Prime has no practical use when applied to poetic language. In poetry we want to say as mauch as possible with as few words possible, in order to convey the most feeling. Contrast this with scientific language, where we want to convey thoughts in as clear a manner possible. For example "That storm last night was a bitch" expresses very little practical scientific data, yet still communicates how the storm felt.

BTW, I have read Science and Sanity (it took me longer than a weekend, for sure), and the notion of E-Prime takes a back seat to the ideas of "multi-ordinal terms." I found the book extremely dry and wordy...and overall didn't enjoy the experience--it felt like a college assignment. That said, I think every school teacher should read it.
 
 
*
15:25 / 23.06.03
Well, perhaps through practice and self-critique we can find solutions which have some utility for us.

I suspect that workable solutions will utilize verbs of possession rather than existence, identity, or characterization, so that the long form will look like "x has the property which I experience as y", which speakers will shorten to "x has y-ness" rather than "x is y-ish".

As often occurs in any second language, fluency grows with practice. I do not yet have enough information to say with certainty that e-prime "is" unworkable or even that poetry in e-prime "is" impossible.

An aside: Can one permit the word "maybe" in e-prime? Or should a speaker also replace every instance of "maybe" with "perhaps", "mayhap", or even the unwieldy "the possibility may exist that..."?

I would start a separate thread for practice but as my computer has some problems right now I can only visit sporadically.
 
 
Quantum
16:17 / 23.06.03
E-Prime is mostly for the domain of science as I understand it, it's too precise for everyday usage. The practice thread might be a good idea, it's very difiicult not to use 'to be' (f'rinstance, it occurred five times in those two sentences)
 
 
Quantum
14:34 / 24.06.03
Here's a related thought;

"Analogical thought seeks to resolve contradictions by transposing them to different metaphorical levels. In many tribal cultures a woman can be both 'wet' and 'dry'. This seems contradictory until we grasp the implicit analogy- a woman is to man as wet is to dry; but a woman is to a menstruating woman as dry is to wet. We do this sort of level changing ourselves and it lies at the root of our thought." (Harpur, the Philosopher's secret fire, also quoted in the left/right thread)

It's that sort of level changing that E-Prime tries to avoid.
 
 
cusm
20:04 / 24.06.03
I believe E-Prime expresses the point of avoidance of discrete identifiers for the replacement of specific action words to describe meaning. In use of E-Prime, bulky linguistic workarounds distract from the intended effect, demonstrating a lack of understanding of the principle. One can still use verbs and objects. One only avoids stating an absolute term of identification by avoidance of "is" in gramatical use.

For the example regarding a rabbit hopping across the yard, I believe only the first sentence containing "was" requires an edit. The rest reads in compliance with my understanding of E-Prime rules, as does this post. I wrote this post in E-Prime as an exercise, one which I found quite stimulating.
 
 
—| x |—
05:59 / 25.06.03
Well, I did say my E-Prime was rusty—been a number of years since I played around with it.

"x has the property which I experience as y", which speakers will shorten to "x has y-ness"

“x has y-ness to me” seems as the shortest we could go, perhaps? Doesn’t E-Prime require the recognition of the subject?

E-Prime is mostly for the domain of science as I understand it, it's too precise for everyday usage.

This seems really interesting—especially considering modern physics. However, I wonder, then, would science be dealing with the bones or cornerstones of human subjectivity as opposed for searching for “objectively valid” laws?

To me, it seems that if we want to avoid “…stating an absolute term of identification,” then we do have to consider nouns and pronouns: these seem as static and absolute terms of identification (more for some, less for others). I think that the mere removal of conjugations of ‘to be’ is not enough to accomplish the abolition of strict terms of identification. We need to at least try to move towards the breakdown/transformation of the Subject/Object dichotomy “to me” and “the x” because in this dichotomy an two absolute terms of identity are implicit.
 
 
cusm
15:09 / 25.06.03
The point is less to avoid abolute terms of identification than to use them inappropriately. That is, names are appropriate. Saying that something is something else is not, for in doing so we create a metaphore to abstract the relation we are assuming is understood.

For example: "The sun is bright" is bad, as this says that the sun and bright are the same object. However, "The bright sun" is good, as this attributes "bright" to "sun", which was the intended message in the first sentence. Or as an easier example, recall this logical fallicy: "Man is a mammal. Goat is a mammal. Therefore, Man is a Goat." E-Prime basicly removes the possibility of this fallicy in speech. E-Prime would clairify this as "Classification Mammal includes Man as an element" instead.

As for X and Yness, I believe the shortest form would still be Yish X. Its actually a lot simpler than it seems. Attributes are allowed. Renaming is not.
 
 
—| x |—
07:07 / 26.06.03
Well sure, I see what you are saying, I think, cusm. I do feel that E-Prime creates an interesting shift in our perceptions via the way we structure our language grammatically. I mean, it took me a moment to try to write that last sentence in E-Prime (did I succeed?) and although my head may have been a little spun to begin with, I certainly felt a little twitch somersault in my head when I consciously decided to figure out a way to write that sentence without ‘is’. So yes, I agree the regular practice of writing in E-Prime could lead to possible rewards (so to speak). Similar perhaps in some ways to the possible rewards gained by writing daily with our non-proficient hand.

I think I came off a little too strong wrt what I remembered of what E-Prime does. However, my criticisms of it remain more or less unchanged since I feel it could accomplish much more towards its goal than it seems to. I still feel that language requires further transmutation along these lines that do get at the Subject-Object dichotomy of our linguistic habits as well.
 
  
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