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Money, Consumption, Depression, comic books, vodka and the Tyne. This one's got it all!

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:12 / 11.06.03
From elsewhere:

Haus, how do you feel about swapping films online? Or music? I think there is enough excess wealth around to support artists without the the people mediating this relationship being so parasitic. And they aren't even people; they are abstract entities that we've created to service our egos, and they've gotten out of hand.

I don't have the option of starting a printing press of From Hell. However, if a CD with it on was available, i've no doubt I would copy it for friends. If I heard Alan Moore was on the breadline because of it, I would encourage the wealthy readers to donate to help him out, and I'd probably do so myself. I've already given £25 to the unnecessary machinery which brought From Hell into my life, but that £25 could have gone toward helping a friend of mine return to East Timor to help rebuild his country. I feel that the £25 is better invested in From Hell because it helps people here in newcastle to find meaning, and I know it has helped those people who've taken the time to read it, because they've told me so. I think you underestimate the level of drug intake, including alcohol, which is motivated by depression in some way. Depression is incredibly common but is a taboo subject; like menstruation, people pretend it doesn't exist. *Of course* comics readers are miserable too, but i feel a graphic novel is a better purchase than binge drinking, and is far cheaper.

(a lengthy description of a party on the Tyne, in which nobody had very much fun, it seems)

The lower decks, by the way, were made up of local people who weren't as obviously wealthy, where it seemed to be about achieving oblivion through drink and monotonous music, which strikes a chord with my experiences of being at school with working class kids.

£25 wouldn't have made too much difference to my friend, it doesn't really narrow the gap between the local Timor fund and the price of his ticket home. I think it has had a valuable effect on my social circle in newcastle, however, and i have a commitment to the people surrounding me here as much as my friend has to East Timor.


There are a lot of questions here. The most obvious one is just how long "drink and monotonous music" have been the preserves of the working class - we can go back to Hoggart in a flash....Adorno? Arnold?

Next up, there's a set of relations being drawn here between money and its exchanges. Specifically, is £25 better spent on a copy of From Hell or on East Timor? What does more good seems to be the question here.

Then, finally, there's rights management, which belongs in another thread. Try not to go too far into it here.

A following post went:

The fact is, I walk around my city and see so much food on the shelves, so many clothes (apparently 30% of textiles are thrown away in this country, rather than donated or recycled), huge buildings with electricity, heating; then there are people meticulously excluded from these resources. It isn't right that homeless people are kept out of shopping malls and harassed by police, and that struggling families are denied food or books or even just a plastic bit of shat from macdonalds just because they don't have enough stupid tokens bearing the queen's mug. At the same time, it isn't right that beautiful, creative people are forced to spend their valuable time passing products through a barcode scanner for a living. It is also not right that there are people being asked by corporations to make sure other people don't just take what they want and need. We shouldn't allow ourselves to be put in the position where we are told "make sure nike doesn't get ripped off by the local charves, or don't feed your family". About the abstract entity thing; well, nike (and other corporations) aren't one person, as you say, they are made up of a network of people. Nike is the idea that holds these people in bondage, the same way other ideas have held people in service to to gods or ideology or whatever you want to call it.

I'm sure there are people who are happy in their jobs, and are comfortable with their relationship with whichever business interests they serve. I think there are an awful lot of people who are not happy, and i think this shows up in the self-destructive behaviour they indulge in which is endemic to the entire consumer driven culture. When people gladly eat up all this stuff they're told about being ugly and worthless and friendless, and call it entertainment, then you have to admit there's a mental problem there. That particular condition is destructive in its effects on the rest of the human universe, and I'm fairly damned sure it is destructive to the individual themselves.


So, consumerism makes people sad. Consumption makes people sad. There are better forms of consumption than others - comics are better than alcohol. In certain cases, comics are better than East Timor. In other cases they are not. People are told that they are ugly and worthless and friendless, and get depressed. To deal with depression, they consume. People not allowed onto this capitalist money-go-round are, if anything, even *more* depressed.

Anyone want to have a go at picking the bones out of that one?

"Charves", btw, IIRC, has a similar force to "pikeys". But that's probably another story.
 
 
grim reader
23:57 / 11.06.03
I said that I may well be ill informed, but thats because corporate news keep us all ill informed.

And Some Kind Of Panty Wearer said We all know that is a lazy, bullshit reason.

And we all know that that is a lazy, bullshit answer. I think a bit more respect for my arguments is in order, and you could start by actually explaining why this is a lazy, bullshit reason. I do my best to read alternative media, but i'm afraid much of it doesn't keep me informed about my city and real people relevant to my life. If you have good sources of information, it is your responsibility to share them and not to try and make others feel stupid because they aren't as media savvy as you are,

It may be a good idea to get a decent education about how economics works, Calvin. I think a lot of your ideas may come into sharper focus if you had a better grasp on the mechanics of how these things really work.

Every time I leave my house i am recieving an education in economics. Observation of the affects it has onthe real people around me is an important learning resource. Big business kills people, spiritually if not always physically, i know this because I've met the victims of this stuff. Could you please bring my experiences into sharper focus for me; this is, after all, why I'm sharing these things with you; i want to learn from you, and i feel i have valuable things to teach others.
 
 
grim reader
00:27 / 12.06.03
There are a lot of questions here. The most obvious one is just how long "drink and monotonous music" have been the preserves of the working class - we can go back to Hoggart in a flash....Adorno? Arnold?

I'm not making any more claims than that they go back to my experiences of drinking culture in a more working class school in North Shields, and with children living around the Tynemouth/Monkseaton area who are into excessive drinking. At school, drink seemed to be the one thing keeping many kids going; the prospect of a friday and saturday and possibly sunday of oblivion, after a week of fascism; it was an obvious attempt to escape. I fell into this trap myself for several years, binge drinking to make up for a lack of something;

Next up, there's a set of relations being drawn here between money and its exchanges. Specifically, is £25 better spent on a copy of From Hell or on East Timor? What does more good seems to be the question here.

Well, as I've said, I think the £25 was a good investment; a lot of activists get burnt out with doing a thankless task; From Hell and Robert Crumb came about for me at a time when i was feeling incredibly low, and i think i'm a more useful person because of the help they gave me. Nonactivists similarly get burnt out, and it is important they access good fiction; in an urban environment, there isn't the space to go walk in the country, so we need the 'virtual spaces' of fictional reality. I think i'd like to turn the question back to you; i don't know what your consumption habits are, but you seem to be suggesting the £25 should have gone to the timorese fund (tell me if i've misunderstood), and if you're making that judgement then i would challenge you to put your money where your mouth is; i can give you the address for the East Timor fund, cheques payable to TETSG (Tyneside East Timor Support Group), and you can sacrafice a months worth of comic purchases.

Then, finally, there's rights management, which belongs in another thread. Try not to go too far into it here.

Not sure what this means. What is 'right management'? I'm not sure i'd accept the idea of management at all, never mind managing people's rights. Too many authority issues there. And also, why exclude it from this thread? The title seems to contain everything else!

So, consumerism makes people sad. Consumption makes people sad. There are better forms of consumption than others - comics are better than alcohol. In certain cases, comics are better than East Timor. In other cases they are not. People are told that they are ugly and worthless and friendless, and get depressed. To deal with depression, they consume. People not allowed onto this capitalist money-go-round are, if anything, even *more* depressed.

Quite accurate, though i sense sarcasm or maybe irony. However, it isn't a matter of being allowed onto the merry go round; we don't really have a choice. I for one certainly couldn't exist without the medium of money; it just isn;t possible, but that doesn;t prevent me trying to talk about changing this state of affairs. Also, there are many people who are just enslaved to money, whether just because they've been psychologically crippled or because they're forced into the relationship in order to feed their families, or because they're in sweatshops elsewhere in the world. I really want off the merry go round. I don't enjoy it, it feels so stressful to have to play the game, negotiate relationships with entities like Asda, just so i can eat.

Anyone want to have a go at picking the bones out of that one?

Please do, wouldn't want anyone to choke.

"Charves", btw, IIRC, has a similar force to "pikeys". But that's probably another story.

Never heard 'pikeys'. Where does that originate?

just noticed the topic abstract, Do we consume because we are depressed? Are we depressed because we consume? It's fairly obvious it isn't one or the other, but both. Feedback loop. Lets get off it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:43 / 12.06.03
Well, comics seems to be a pretty good place to start on the economics front, actually. I said:

To get slightly back ontopic - presumably we agree economically that it takes an amount of money to produce a comic - payment of artists, writers, cost of paper, cost of staples, cost of advertsing and distribution, and so on. That money is recouped in various ways - sales, advertising within the magazine. If the balance sheet comes out ahead enough to indicate a decent profit, the comic or in broader terms the company is healthy.

That's a bit thumbnail, but it pretty much works. We can apply it more broadly as a model. Let's say, to take another bit of consumer culture, Matrix Reloaded. It costs a certain amount to make Matrix Reloaded. Far more, in fact, than two normal guys like the Wachowskis, or even a very rich man like Joel Silver, could get from their piggy banks. So, they have to ask other people to give them the money to make the movie. How do they do that? By providing a business model. Something like, we believe that x million people will pay $x to see this movie. We further believe that we can sell x action figures, at a price x higher than the cost of the constituent elements of the figure - the steel, plastics and packing materials, the freight costs to the stores and so on, making x profit. And then we think the video and DVD rental, and then the purchasing, will make $x more dollars, again from profits greater than the costs of creating the videos and DVDs. So, this products has an immediate value to you of x, and a value in the future of x.

An awful lot of people have to agree at each point in the process - people to fund the film, toy manufacturers, cinema distributors, toy shops, video stores, and ultimately the people who decide to part with their cash at the turnstiles. They in turn are paying off the costs of the cinema in buying the print, shampooing the carpet, running the lights in the foyer, and so on. It may be a model with a screaming dark heart of emptiness at the centre, but it's immensely collaborative... so where does the coercion start? Who are the bad guys? To return to our earlier example, Grant Morrison - has he "sold out" by taking the Marvel shilling? To step briefly toward Leaptopia, would a locally-produced pint of Real Ale or four be a better purchase, ethically and in terms of one's soul, than an imperialist and big-business cultural product like a copy of New X-Men, or a ticket to a Star trek movie? Can you separate the "artist" from the means of production, or the act of consumption?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:54 / 12.06.03
(tell me if i've misunderstood)
NE21
You've misunderstood. It's more that I don't quite understand how the different forms of exchange and commodity interact - I certainly don't know whether a £25 donation to Narciso's continuing education is more valuable than a £25 contribution to introducing more people to the work of Alan Moore. I would say that they are in a sense both secondary purcahses - neither of them directly affects the well-being of the purchaswer as the decision to buy food might - but I'm not sure that signifies anything.

"Rights management", btw, is about copyright, rather than human rights - it's the term Microsoft and others are using to describe the handling of copyright-protected material by their media players, among other things.

And the people not allowed on the money-go-round are the homeless people you mentioned seeing excluded from shops in your previous post, rather than everyone, at least as I conceived them.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:13 / 12.06.03
Pikeys.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:27 / 12.06.03
On a moderator note, this thread was started to remove a lot of offtopic infighting from a thread about a comic book. It is not intended to form a locus for more offtopic infighting.

In its ideal form, the Head Shop is where we talk about what we think of ideas, not what we think about each other. Concerted attempts to bring the discussion to a conflict between any given combination of people may invite moderation.
 
 
Jackie Susann
06:56 / 12.06.03
about achieving oblivion through drink and monotonous music

i think you will find just the alcohol will do it. suggesting maybe they were GASP enjoying the music!!! and perhaps even the drunkenness. but possibly i only think this because you could be describing my life. oh my god i am depressed because i am a consumer. oh wait no i'm not.

also in the phrase binge drinking to make up for a lack of something, why wouldn't the lack of something be a lack of binge drinking? in which case it would be a singularly efficient response. i am not being sarcastic. i don't see how your assumption that people who drink heavily are doing so because they're depressed is based on anything but projection. people drink because they want a drink. this does not seem to me a particularly shocking or saddening fact.

in general, you seem to think that consumerism is a depressing lifestyle, whereas i would suggest consumerism is part of a global economic system. you can't opt out through more ethical approaches to consumption; commodities are everywhere, and the whole system of exchange is inter-related. or: it doesn't make any difference to the homeless whether you buy a comic, a beer, or nothing, because the institution of private property maintains commodity relations where you (i.e. the consumer, ethical or otherwise) get to go home and they (i.e. the homeless and impoverished everywhere) don't.
 
 
grim reader
10:03 / 12.06.03
I hope nobody is taking any offense at what I'm saying, I don't know your consumption habits, and i hope they aren't what define you; i'm not trying to make a moral judgement. If you've transcended the whole consumerist paradigm in your own life, you're one of a lucky few, just going by the way most people in this city behave. I would welcome your advice on how you avoid depression and put meaning into your life. Also, oblivion is incredibly important; people wouldn't be attempting it if there wasn't a need, and indeed if it wasn't nice at times. I'm by no means a puritan, and like getting blotto myself now and again.

I'm not ASSUMING heavy drinkers are depressed, that's a comclusion I've come to just based on observing self-destructive behaviour; not all drinking or other drug taking is self-destrutive, I'm quite aware of that. Don't take it personally; i'm sure there's stuff in my life you could criticise as self-destructive, and i hope i could answer those points and take them on board, rather than a knee-jerk defensive response. Excessive drinking is bad for the children who indulge in it, as it is bad for habitual binge drinkers. I think there are a lot of people who don't think about their consumption of this drug, because there's so many signals in society telling them its a good thing (like Bacardi adverts, peer pressure, and now NXM #142; its hardly subversive for the comic to present drinking culture to its readers, most kids know all about booze from ads targetted directly for them, intended to get them hooked before adulthood). We're talking drug abuse here, and if this was crack or heroin i think more people would be concerned. Alcohol is an incredibly dangerous drug and should be treated with a lot more respect. As i say, i'm not puritanical, but i can SEE this stuff on the streets, and in the bars, and eventually i can see it in the hungy ghosts who fill newcastle city centre every day to shop for shit; their waste of resources as a form of entertainment is another sign of self-destructive and destructive behaviour. I don't deny that consumerism is part of a global economic structure; that in no way denies the validity of my points, just adds another level of sophistication to the understanding of how it works. I hope I'm not making arguments for 'ethical consumption'; i don't think changing individual buying habits can change such a powerful force, which is willing to employ violence if it feels it is threatened. What i'm illustrating with the From Hell example is that that book has improved people's lives around me; buying it has in no way challenged consumerism or capitalism, and is not in any way a direct form of resistance.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:52 / 12.06.03
But in that case, how do the alcohol and the graphic novel differ? Or the graphic novel and the magic mushrooms, if you'd rather.... if I buy a bottle of a decent single malt and and have my friends over for an evening of tippling and chatting, that might improve quality of life for them more than a read of From Hell, *for them in that specific time*. If there's no moral or ethical component, how can we not place ourselves behind the bleary eyes of the pubgoer, see the young Ronan weaving through the city streets, Forbidden Planet bag in hand, and overhear our host's trickling, hop-rich thought: "Poor boy; £25 on a graphic novel when he might have better improved his mood, and the moods of others with a bit of fresh air, a trip to the gym and a few convivial pints?". He might be wrong for you, but you might as well be wrong for him. If we're just talking about which product of capitalism is the most likely to be happy-making, then isn't it all subjective?
 
 
Smoothly
11:10 / 12.06.03
Is the point that certain ways of coping with grinding depression are more usefully dealt with through things like comics, than by things like Carlsberg?
Are we just talking about happy-making efficiency, or also some kind of added value or utility?
 
 
houdini
16:55 / 12.06.03

Haus: "... isn't it all subjective?"

Whenever people raise the bugbear of subjectivity I am forced to mention Wittgenstein and Tractatus. The reason for this is simple: In that book W goes to great lengths first to show that all language is subjective and arbitrary and that it is almost impossible for categorical philosophy to lay hands on any of it, and then to argue that our inability to provide an "objective" taxonomy of language in no way inhibits language from fulfilling its cultural function as a token for the exchange of meaning.

This is important. What it boils down to is that "it can all be subjective" and still allow for different levels of quality. There is very little real way to argue that Britney Spears is objectively inferior to Mozart or Nirvana, but that doesn't mean that she can't actually be inferior thereto.

What (if anything) this says about the differing quality of experiences as are had by blokes down the local, rich tosspot schyoodents on the Tuxedo Royale and consumers of fine Alan Moore products is left as an exercise to the reader.
 
 
houdini
17:07 / 12.06.03
More generally, and having had a few minutes to fink abaht it, I'd have to say this:

I'm reading a lot of Zen at the moment. Alan Watts's Zen And The Beat Way, Cleary's translation of The Book Of Five Rings, the (not actually Zen at all) Tao Te Ching and whatnot. A point that Watts goes to some lengths to labour is that the pursuit of happiness is really the domain of the individual.

As I see it, it's possible to wallow in alcoholism, but it's also possible to wallow in graphic novels. I spent a very depressed winter being unemployed in Edinburgh and writing a conversion of the Tunnels & Trolls roleplaying game to the Fuzion system. I would get up about 3pm, drink a little wine with my roommates when they got home from work and then work on my "opus" from about midnight till 8 or 9 am. I'd be kidding myself if I said booze was the problem. I was wallowing in roleplaying. And I've seen people write "novels" the same way.

It's all in your hands what you make a transformatory, enlightening experience and what you make into your own velvet-padded jailcell. It can be booze, psychedelics, graphic novels, computer programming. But the ability to control it is ultimately only within yer noggin, noplace else.

Seems to me that this was one of the bigger points GM was tryin' to make in The Invisibles, too. It's you, you, you. Heaven and Hell are right here right now. It's all in the angle of yer perceptions.

Where I have to get off that train, though, is in thinking that I can sit and meditate till I'm no longer unhappy with more traditional injustices in the wider world. No amount of me convincing myself it's me, me, me is going to keep blind schoolchildren in Indochina from being further oppressed in the construction of footballs and trainers. But what I think is especially useful for the activist (and I'm trying, slowly, to teach this to the director of CUSLAR, whom I live with right now) is to be able to "de-tune" from the suffering of the world. To protect their own mind. You need to let that stuff into your heart in order to inspire you to fight it, and it's shallow and iniquitous to pretend to be unaware of it, but if you try and carry the full burden of it 24-7 then you will drive yourself into the black pit and ultimately nullify your own ability to continue the struggle.

Gotta have some balance here.

Still not answering the question, though.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:33 / 12.06.03
Houdini: I'm not sure that your expansion on the Tractatus, although as ever fascinating, is entirely relevant to the thread.


In this case, we are not trying to establish a taxonomy of objective quality; at least I am not. Your Britney example draws on objective aesthetic structures, and might be a useful avenue to pursue if anyone is full of the flush of Beardsmore, but probably elsewhere. Rather, we are looking at the entirely relative conclusions drawn from two different viewers of the same consensually guaranteed perceived environment. Ronan is positing that From Hell is a better use of £25 than the liquid equivalent, in terms of using capital. The education of Narciso from East Timor is also in there, but possibly as a red herring. I am questioning the logic of the terminology of "better". As you subsequently point out, depressive behaviours can be manifested through any number of things - that's one half of the question. The other half is whether it is as clear as Ronan seems to believe that the wellspring of drinking is depression. It is often very hard to believe that people are actually enjoying or choosing freely behaviours that seem to us pathological; a very good current example, in fact, is in the Music forum, with Sypha Nadon's difficulty in accepting that anyone could like T.A.T.U (better than Mozart. Fact) with any motivation other than perversity...
 
 
houdini
18:26 / 12.06.03

Haus: Ten cent words notwithstanding, the essential point that I thought I was making is that although the differences between two types of experience might appear to us to be "entirely relative" that ain't necessarily so. I would support Ronan's notion that types of experiences can have qualitative distinctions (and distinctions of quality) between them.

That said, as I'm trying to say in the second post, I'm with you in not thinking that we can say something as simple as "all drinking experiences << all graphic literature experiences". Anyone who hasn't had a night in the pub which was better than, oh, say Youngblood #0 is someone I pity.

Finally I'll mention that "objective quality", "spiritual value", "healthiness/wisdom" and "honest enjoyment" are, AFAIK, orthogonal axes for the assessment of experiences. There may be some functions that live amongst them and connect them in some cases, but we shouldn't mistake one for another.

I guess my main point is that depression comes from within. It seems pretty obvious to me that drinking can certainly be a (very effective) facilitator of the depressive process, without being the wellspring of all depression, or even A Bad Thing.

What any of this has to do with Newcastle Students giving their 20 quid to Narciso from East Timor is as unclear to me as it is to you, possibly moreso.
 
  
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