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Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the slashiest of them all?

  
  

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that
12:34 / 09.06.03
I have been sleeping, eating, breathing slash for the past week or so. Reading more than ever, and it's fascinating, but no one in meatspace will talk to me about it at any length. So you lot will just have to, instead. Please.

My favourite fandoms at the moment are LotR and the Potter-verse, with a side order of Star Wars. LotR is interesting, slash-wise, but for reasons other than the immediately obvious. Legolas and Gimli are a foregone conclusion, but Gimli just isn't that interesting, frankly. Boromir and Aragorn are interesting, but I find it hard to believe that their relationship gets beyond unresolved sexual tension. And however much fun it might be to consider Aragorn tarting around with Legolas...just...nah. Doesn't follow, IMHO. So, Tolkien - despite the oh-so-homosocial nature of things, there's not much space for actual sex. So that got me thinking about our slashy relationship with canon, and how much we are willing to bend things. A lot of the time, it seems like people have to bend the rules of canon to allow the characters to fulfil their surely rightful destiny and shag each other senseless (not that its always about that, but you catch my meaning...) I was wondering how that reflects on relationships with the main text, issues of respect for the canon, which often seem at war with issues of respect for the characters, if that makes any sense. Yes, I'm rambling now... I guess what I am getting at is - does it have to sit perfectly with the text for you to enjoy it? For it to be worthwhile?

Often, I think the quality of writing matters more than the pairing itself - and that good writing can open your eyes to something you'd never considered before. I just read a very cool Remus Lupin/Sirius Black/James Potter fic, and after getting past the sense that I just wasn't paying enough attention during the books (Remus Lupin? Who? Whaa?), I think that is probably set to become an enduring favourite. Of course, there are pairings that are never ever going to make any sense to me - like Luke Skywalker/Han Solo.

I was also thinking about how genuinely great some slash writers are, as writers, how they're much better often than established novelists...and that got me wondering, if they were to write about new characters of their own creation, would it be as interesting? Because, to borrow and paraphrase a thought from Deva, slashers sometimes seem to feel that there's a lot to rescue from the author of canon - and a lot to fill in, sometimes so much so that the characters themselves may as well have been created afresh. And that is another reason slash is so fascinating - it is done with so much love for what are essentially figments of another person's imagination. I haven't got any insightful comment to make, I just think it is curious.

Apologies for the messy nature of my thoughts here. I'll shut up now, and see if I can't stop thinking about slash for five minutes and get some work done. Basically, this is a thread for talking about your favourite slash pairings, and why you love 'em. And their flaws, if you wish.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:04 / 09.06.03
Ah slash, I'd love to talk about it. I love slash and it's all Enid Blyton's fault. Give the world a character like Darrell Rivers who is clearly a lesbian and refuse to acknowledge it and then stick Gwendolen in to the frame who obviously secretly wants to rip Darrell's sensible undies off and... well really, corruption from an early age!

I have a thing for good vs. bad becoming good fucking bad. It just seems to transfer so well. The straightness of me probably comes across when I confess that I'm a Harry/Draco shipper though a bit of Snape never goes amiss. I don't like Harry/Ron because I can't imagine it working in the source text... Ron's too het and erm ginger to get off with Harry. Hermione fem slash doesn't work for me either. Hermione/Ginny is the most repulsive thing I could possibly read because they're just so not like that. Hermione/Pansy is more likely.

So yeah drifting too far from the traits of the original characters pisses me off. Some slash author's portray Harry as this whining, hard done by cretin and I hate that because he's tough and his fucked-upness has far more scope than that. A slash author should elaborate upon the source, not recreate the world or ignore obvious specifics. The point is that the world's already there and if you work with it then the slash becomes better than the original story because it acts as wish fulfillment. That's really what bothers me about character perversion. Take weak Draco- he just makes me want to roll over and cry because if Malfoy shows any upset it has to have a strong foundation rather than a 'he suddenly broke because daddy was abusing him' type thing going on.

Sorry if that got confused, I'll read it through later when my head's less blurred and decide whether it makes sense or not.
 
 
Quantum
14:03 / 09.06.03
Lord of the Blings... has it been done?
 
 
that
14:55 / 09.06.03
Someone has a little obsession brewing, methinks. No, it has not been done, but there is still time. Ali G as Aragorn?

Yikes. That's worse than the lederhosen that torment my every waking moment. (No, you really, really, really don't want to know).

Het gives me the creeps (s'unnecessary, for one thing). Male pregnancy gives me the screaming heebie-jeebies. Bad writing makes me run away. Other than that, I'm open to possibilities.

I'm not sure that character perversion is an immutable category. A lot of people think that simply claiming x and y could like each other that little bit more than the author mentions is already a perversion of the worst kind. So I am unwilling to say that anyone's rendering of the characters is a perversion - because who is to say that I'm right? Some would say that only the originator can write their own characters - the average slasher does not agree. So although I might have a powerful negative reaction to someone's rendering of a particular character, I amn't going to say it's bad, wrong, whatever. Just that it doesn't sit right with me. And sometimes it is so skilfully done that it seems to matter little (but that could relate to my lack of investment in the original texts in the first place? I dunno).
 
 
Scrubb is on a downward spiral
19:24 / 09.06.03
Give the world a character like Darrell Rivers who is clearly a lesbian and refuse to acknowledge it and then stick Gwendolen in to the frame who obviously secretly wants to rip Darrell's sensible undies off and... well really, corruption from an early age!

Good lord, that was actually a pairing I'd never really thought of. I always thought that Darrell River's obvious partners were either "solid little Sally" or bad girl Alicia. Although thinking on it, Sally and Alicia would make a slashtastic pair, both vying for the attentions of Darrell. And, of course, there was always the worshipful Mary-Lou in the background...

Moving swiftly on. Harry/Draco is a tried and tested favourite - love/hate, blond/dark, evil little bastard/good and honest trooper, la la la. I'd never really considered Snape/Lucius until I saw the second film, but would now put that as a firm back-up.
 
 
that
19:45 / 09.06.03
Actually, I've sort of changed my mind about the likelihood of Aragorn/Legolas. Sort of.

Slash was foreign to me in my Enid Blyton days. Funny, because of all the twisted, twisted things that weren't. But I never knew about slash until I met a bloke who wrote it when I was 16. I don't remember having even the faintest flicker of surprise, however. I didn't actually get into it until I read 'NASA:Trek' by Constance Penley last year.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
20:06 / 09.06.03
Well I hadn't actually heard of the concept... the budding bisexual in me just thought it was weird that girls always went out with boys.

It's the last book that seals the Gwendolen thing for me but I suppose Bill/Clarissa and Irene/Belinda pairings are the most obvious. Think you're right about Sally and Alicia, that would be marvellously slashtastic!
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
22:09 / 09.06.03
Surely Bill and Clarissa is practically canon? As is Bill & Miss Peters.

What about Felicity (?name - Darrell's little sister) and June? Or June and the strong swimmer type who saves her from drowning at the cost of ripping her arm muscles and never smiling again?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:26 / 09.06.03
Gosh yes June and... (quick flip through books. She only appears in Last Term...) Amanda. I quite forgot about them! June actually saves Amanda, the arrogant beast, who has gone for an early morning swim in the strong Cornish currents (the fool!). She does indeed rip her arm muscles and can thus never be an Olympic/World champion.

Now let's have a little proof of Gwendolen- Mary's deepest undying respect and ardent love for Darrell Rivers (and who can blame her, for Darrell is surely the pluckiest and most kind hearted of all girls)-
I shall never be as stong-minded and courageous as you Darrell...
Do, do, do write to me sometimes. I think and think of you all at Malory Towers.

The tragedy is that her compassion for her school chum shall never be realised for as she looks past her own nose for the first time she is leaving dear old Malory Towers.
 
 
Scrubb is on a downward spiral
22:11 / 10.06.03
June and Amanda both seemed so unpleasant that I never thought fondly enough of them to see them in slashvision, even after traumatic muscle-ripping-on-rock events. Bill/Clarissa and Bill/Miss Peters were indeed so obvious that they almost didn't register - B and C end the series with plans to set up their own riding school for goodness' sake.

Still not entirely sure about Gwendolyn/Darrell though although not entirely sure why. And now I find that I've left the last three books at someone else's house so can't answer question of - who were the fantastic artist/gifted musician couple? Or were they in the St Clares lot?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:14 / 10.06.03
No that's Irene and Belinda!

St Clare's was never all that slashy- except for Alison and the drama teacher... now that was definitely very dodgy.
 
 
Cat Chant
07:39 / 11.06.03
Still not entirely sure about Gwendolyn/Darrell though although not entirely sure why

Tsk. Because Darrell is busy with the eternal triangle of Sally (devoted girlfriend-next-door) -vs- Alicia (sexy bad girl, Othered by her being in a different house), and has no time for Gwendolyn's unrequited and aspirational devotion. Cf also Darrell/Mary-Lou (Mary-Lou, I think, ends up paired with Daphne after their traumatic physical experience on the cliffs. Actually, the Malory Towers books just are slash, aren't they? I'm surprised Darrell & Sally never got trapped in a cave together and/or kidnapped by aliens and asked to demonstrate the human phenomenon of... love...)

You all know my favourite slash pairings, I'm sure, but for the record: Avon/Blake and Harry/Snape. I'm a devoted One True Pairing girl and align myself much more closely with first- and second-generation slash of the Kirk/Spock type than with all this cool, postmodern, trendy, pair-anyone-with-anyone stuff (grumble, grumble, in my day, etc). I can't read outside my own fandoms - one of my favourite writers, Resonant, works mostly in Due South and Sentinel but although I love her writing as writing, I can't follow her DS or Sentinel stories. Which I think is actually the mark of a good slash story, for me: it has to rely on the reader's investment in the canon as much as the writer's for its legibility. (In other words, if you could get as much out of reading a story without knowing the fandom, that story might as well be Any Two Guys or non-fanfic.)

I do read pairings that I don't write - particularly Avon/Tarrant, which is a pairing that attracts highly competent pornographers, for some reason (the visuals, I guess) - but I've also read some Lucius/Draco recently, mostly for the sheer "say what?" ness of it, and as a negative exemplum for my own cross-generational pairing.

Can't be bothered with slashing LotR, for some reason: just can't get it up for dwarfs, elves seem non-sexual to me and, much as I like looking at Orlando Bloom, I don't like to think about his cock, Sam/Frodo is canonical and doesn't need me to draw out the implications, and none of the other pairings strike me as plausible. Though I am not so high-minded that I didn't very much enjoy the slashy visuals (or "boy touching") in the films. Ditto with Buffy, really.

Harry/Snape seems to me to be the place where all the contradictions and tensions in the Rowlingverse can be best explored, though I'm still waiting for someone to direct me to some decent Snape/Black: unfortunately all my friends in the HP fandom hate Sirius Black with a mighty passion, because that's another possible place to work out the Gryffindor/Slytherin dichotomies. Doesn't have the teacher/child dynamic, though, which is important to me because I do worry about little Harry, half the time fighting duels to the death and being given inappropriately adult responsibilities by Dumbledore, the rest of the time being awarded House Points and made to take exams: the two paradigms in canon - school stories & fantasy/quest narrative - just don't really work together, and the teacher-child relations are where those tensions come to a head. Particularly Snape.

More, you can assure yourselves, later - oh, but I just have to add, for sheer slashy goodness in a gym-slip one need look no further than Antonia Forest (who is to Enid Blyton as Diana Wynne Jones is to Rowling). Tim/Lawrie, Miranda/Nick, Miranda/Jan Scott (explicit unrequited passion) and, my personal favourite pairing, Jan Scott/Rowan Marlow (they TOTALLY end up together after the series ends, you mark my words). Just gorgeous. And the only m/f couple in it (Patrick/Ginty, boo) begin their romance by role-playing a pair of devoted m/m warriors.

Ooh, and there's a fantastic lesbian teacher in it - Miss Cromwell - who is just like Snape and has a brief bond with baby butch Nick over how unfair it is that a book should be in the Limited section of the library just because it has m/m lovers in it. Happy happy wriggle.
 
 
that
08:34 / 11.06.03
MINOR SPOILERS FOR LOTR











Sam/Frodo *is* canonical, but Tolkien kind of fucks it up by throwing in a token female (Rose? Rosie? Something like that) for Sam to marry, as a complete and fairly unbelievable afterthought (he thinks about her when he's looking for a probably dead Frodo in the orc hotel - I've forgotten the name, some tower somewhere. Like, how likely is that? The master to whom he is completely devoted is getting rather too much attention from orcs, and he's thinking about a girl? What happened to Sam will kill you if you try anything?). I think she gets perhaps two brief brief mentions in the books proper, and the marriage is referenced in the timeline at the very end. Legolas/Gimli is also canon (they fucking elope, people. Check the timeline. How much more obvious can you get?). But those pairings just ain't sexy or interesting...to me. And as far as Boromir/Aragorn goes, the film is way slashier than the book. And even then, its UST. It has to be. And it just seems wrong to have an AU version of LotR (and this from someone who doesn't even like Tolkien that much. I just think that B/A slash is better as UST).












END OF SPOILERS




I personally like slutty Sirius and damaged post-Azkhaban (sp?) Sirius very much. But there *is* a dearth of Snape/Black slash.
 
 
Cat Chant
08:42 / 11.06.03
if they were to write about new characters of their own creation, would it be as interesting?

There's a few writers who are known to be both slash and pro. I don't know how out they are, so I won't name names, but there's one pro novelist who used to write B7 slash, and her slash is infinitely better than her realfic. Even when her realfic has transparent avatars of Blake and Avon in (she gets Blake much wronger as an avatar than she ever did in realfic). Conversely, I've heard that Joanna Russ's Kirk/Spock isn't that good.

And conversely conversely, there's at least one B7 slasher who writes fabulous pro novels. So it just goes to show.
 
 
Bear
08:53 / 11.06.03
I imagine there must be some Quantum Leap slash right?

How about Tom and Jerry?
 
 
that
08:55 / 11.06.03
Mm. I knew, of course, that certain people wrote both. I suppose I am just trying to pin down exactly why slash is so interesting...and if it is more interesting than non-slash m/m focussed fic. But I didn't even realise until the 'Manflesh!' thread that there was this whole subgenre of original fantasy with m/m everywhere. So I will have to read some before I develop a proper opnion on the matter.

I suppose the reason that I don't hold with the one true pairing thing (except in obvious cases like K/S) is what you touched on with Snape/Black - that each pairing gives one the opportunity to deal with/work through different aspects of the canon... and as the author is almost undoubtedly never, ever going to have any of the male characters get together, one might as well explore the possibilities.
 
 
Cat Chant
09:35 / 11.06.03
I guess I think that, like, each canonical universe has a particular resonant frequency, and that the One True Pairing is like a note sustained on that frequency which can cause the universe to shatter like glass - or, rather, to open up and see its own foreclosed possibilities (chiefly, but not only, homosexuality). But of course that resonant frequency is not inherent in the text, but produced through the interaction of text, reader, author and world, so that each reader will be able to reconfigure the universe in a slightly different way...

Bear, yeah, there's tons of Quantum Leap slash - never read any myself, but.

Cho, I know what you mean about the difference between slash and m/m - it's interesting and complex, will think about it some more.
 
 
that
09:43 / 11.06.03
Resonant frequency. Very good way to put it...

Bear, I've read some Quantum Leap slash. It was ok, but I suppose it just isn't dark and tortured or prettily new and tentative enough for my liking. Or something. Plus, of course, I am not particularly a fan of the series.
 
 
Catjerome
01:40 / 12.06.03
Fight Club slash. FIGHT CLUB SLASH. It's perfect. "We're a generation of men raised by women ... I'm wondering if another woman is really what we need." ::cue sweaty man-love:: ... eh, except when the writers try out other pairings besides Jack/Tyler. For some reason, I just can't scan those in my head.

X-Files slash is always going to have a dear spot in my heart. That was the one that opened the door for me. Also, I found that I ended up getting turned onto shows through the slash fiction rather than vice versa. e.g. I ended up watching *The Sentinel* because I saw it on so damned many slash sites.

My old roommate had a fascination with slash for *Kung Fu: The Legend Continues*. That was always mental and good fodder for inside jokes.

My big problem is that I like well-formed stories and characters, but I lean toward slash fiction out of interest, so I end up disappointed when I find nothing but PWP's and sex stories. I usually end up skimming past the erotic scenes; I usually find them more sex-by-numbers than actually arousing ("Mulder reached down and grabbed Krycek's cock. It was hard. Then he did this. Then he did that. Then there was moaning. etc.").
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:10 / 12.06.03
I've only read Autumn Term (they are fiendishly hard to get hold of, though I think Girls Gone By are reprinting the lot) but yes, I can see Tim/Lawrie...

School stories are really the home of canonical slash pairings, aren't they - I can think of some crackers. Tom Brown/Harry East isn't quite as obvious as some, but I think is definitely there. John Verney/Harry Desmond in The Hill is top-drawer, though the book is sentimental drivel - and there's another one there, Desond and the evil villain whoise name I have forgotten (it's s tug-of-love one). David Blaize and Frank Maddox is interesting - totally explicit but also non-sexual. All those tales of misunderstandings between friends...

Angela Brazil is perhaps a bit winsome for slash - and pairings would be too canonical as well I think, loads of chapters called 'A Hot Friendship' etc.; and funnily enough EBD isn't very satisfactory in that respect - I can only really see Tom Gay as a clear candidate, perhaps with Rosalie Way? Though Bride Bettany might do at a push...
 
 
Cat Chant
08:08 / 13.06.03
Kit-Kat - try ebay for the Marlow books, I saw a couple of sets of the school ones there the other day (though, alas, Attic Term is pants because Antonia Forest foolishly updated all the pop-culture references so all of a sudden my lovely forties tomboys are watching Star Trek and saying "Hey man, that's gear"). Tim/Lawrie really takes off in End of Term, when Tim realizes that Nick is a butch and transfers her affections to femme Lawrie instead, and Cricket Term has all the Jan Scott stuff [swoooon]. (Plus Nick captaining the Lower IV to victory or something, I didn't follow the cricket plots too closely.) I've read too little Angela Brazil to comment... what about the Jennings books? Any m/m alliances (or, indeed, enmities) there, or is that just a bad and wrong thought?

And I just want to state in public my intention to write a Cat Chant/Tonino Montana novel,* so that hopefully I will be shamed into starting it. And then finishing it. (I've already written a very short story about a 21yo Cat coming out to Chrestomanci, and it got me interested in finding out more about the sexual politics of Chrestomanci's home world: DWJ has said she doesn't think they'd be very sympathetic to a female Chrestomanci, so I wonder how Cat being out would work... mind you, though, him and Tonino would be, magically speaking, an almost unstoppable combination, so I don't know what anyone could do about it.)

*anyone who's read the short story 'Stealer of Souls' will know where that's coming from (last line: "Cat decided he liked Tonino rather a lot).
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:37 / 13.06.03
I think GGBP are reprinting the lot at about a tenner a pop - starting with the rarer ones i.e. Falconer's Lure and Runaway Home... oh, if only I wasn't so bloody broke...

Jennings... seems wrong, somehow, though the magenta uniform at Linbury Court might give anyone ideas. I can't think of a suitable pairing... Jennings and Darbishire is clearly a non-starter in the same way as Harry/Ron. And Mr Wilkins? Noooo.

On the other hand molesworth is clearly fascinated by basil fotherington-tomas... perhaps basil f-t and peason have a torrid affair and molesworth suffers FUMES OF JEALOUSY? Evidently his vision of himself as fashion designer has hidden ramifications.

Actually that makes me feel slightly sullied.

On Cat - yes, now that I think of it I can clearly see Cat as a prime candidate, and that line about Tonino is a bit of a giveaway. I've always been slightly puzzled by the sexual politics at Chrestomanci Castle anyway - Chrestomanci (i.e. Christopher Chant) and Milly does not seem right, somehow. There is absolutely no indication in The Lives of Christopher Chant that they are anything more than friends, and I reckon Christopher's chief focus is clearly Tacroy. Chrestomanci is evidently missing something... actually, perhaps that's what Michael is doing there in CL...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:53 / 13.06.03
Christopher and Milly- a marriage of convenience.
 
 
Cat Chant
13:01 / 13.06.03
Nononono, I like Christopher/Milly, though it is true that Christopher's path to adulthood is strewn with m/m crushes and his prime focus is Tacroy (line from the coming-out story: "I suppose you think I should marry Janet and gaze at Tonino from afar, like you and Mordecai Roberts"). It's something else I want to work out in the novel, though, as it does seem clear that Christopher is gay, in that his erotic relation to the world is almost exclusively along m/m lines: but I don't want to trash the C/M marriage because it's nice. (Possibly Milly is gay as well, of course: all those school stories...)

I tend to see it as DWJ working so hard to write nice, eroticized-equality, sensible m/f relationships untainted by sentimental-romantic fantasies that she takes her eye off hte m/m relationships and all the passion, dooomed romance and torrid eroticism comes bursting untrammeledly forth there. Lucky for me, hee hee.

Can't see Chrestomanci/Michael, oddly enough: the 'secretary' role seems fairly blatant, but there's just... nothing there, for me. Possibly this is just due to Cat's focalization, though, since he's obviously incubating what is later going to become a full-blown crush on Chrestomanci, and doesn't have much interest in Michael - but then you'd expect him to pick up on the sexual crackles between Chrestomanci & Michael. Hmmm.

However, this chapter of my PhD isn't going to write itself [tears self away from talking about DWJ slash with probably the only other handful of people in the world, not counting my gf/beta-reader, with whom this conversation is possible]
 
 
grant
16:25 / 13.06.03
I have to ask - UST?

What be that?
 
 
that
16:27 / 13.06.03
Unsatisfied/Unresolved Sexual Tension.
 
 
grant
16:56 / 13.06.03
[whistles tune to "My Favorite Things."]
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:01 / 13.06.03
There is absolutely no indication in The Lives of Christopher Chant that they are anything more than friends

That's because they're both kids! They're meant to be about ten or eleven! Honestly, you could at least wait for them to get to fourth form before you start making assumptions.

Jennings? That's a slash too far. And hands off molesworth, people. You make me feel like my inner child's wandered off with a man who said he was going to show it some puppies only there weren't really any puppies.
 
 
that
18:46 / 13.06.03
I think Fight Club slash would be redundant in much the same way as LA Confidental slash is redundant (Geroff! I know its a controversial opinion).
 
 
Cat Chant
21:13 / 13.06.03
You make me feel like my inner child's wandered off with a man who said he was going to show it some puppies only there weren't really any puppies.

My work on this planet is done.
 
 
Cat Chant
21:17 / 13.06.03
Kit-Kat said There is absolutely no indication in The Lives of Christopher Chant that they are anything more than friends

Then Mordant said:

That's because they're both kids!

But cf 'Stealer of Souls', where Cat and Tonino are both about eleven and still... Also, of course, Christopher's huge crushes on Uncle Ralph and Tacroy are completely visible when he's the same age as he is when he's not attracted to Milly. He might grow into her, of course.
 
 
Cat Chant
21:21 / 13.06.03
And while we're on the subject...

Behold the wonder of Snowgrouse. (B7 fans will get the jokes: others enter at your own risk.)
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
22:13 / 13.06.03
I think of Christopher in The Lives... as being a bit older, because he seems to be going through the revolting adolescent phase... surely all that business with him not being able to use his magic and then finding out that it's silver and raising the roof is a whopping great indication of that?

Cat in CL is clearly about 10/11, but I thought maybe a bit older in 'Stealer of Souls'... I think Deva does have a point that Christopher's relations with Milly seem very similar to Cat's with Janet.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:44 / 15.06.03
I still say you people are alllll messed up.

Although I had noticed a tendency on the evil part of my brain to try and map BDSM interactions onto fictional characters, particularly those who are written as purely vanilla couples. For example, I strongly maintain that Buffy could have so kept Riley if only she'd borrowed a few toys, accessories and suggestions from Willow.*

Actually, that's cheating. I think femdom can be pretty much taken as read for most male characters in the Buffyverse.


*Oh, come on. Her and Oz were obvious. All that locking him up in the book cage? Necessary evil? Yeah, right. Mistress of Pain, every damn night.
 
 
that
15:54 / 15.06.03
Somewhat OT, but I read half of 'Charmed Life' today, having never done more than skim parts of some other DWJ (non-Chrestomanci) stuff. And I have to say I found it quite unbearable. Are all her books like that? Horrible, horrible people being deliberately dense and/or unpleasant, casual violence, misunderstandings, painful, sickening sense of claustrophobia? I find myself quite unable to go any further.
 
  

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