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Stupid science questions

 
  

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Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:01 / 08.06.03
A couple of conversations recently had me reflecting that many of us feel our scientific education (often through no fault of our own) to be somewhat lacking. This thread is for questions about science and technology that you'd normally be too shy to air in case laughing geeks kick iron filings in your face. No matter how basic you think your query is, bung it here.
 
 
Smoothly
16:18 / 08.06.03
Cool. This thread is perfect for me. I'm an idiot.

So, first up: If you've got a space-station in geostationary orbit over the earth, why can't astronauts get to and from it using a really long ladder, or a lift or something?
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:54 / 08.06.03
This is an Arthur C. Clarke idea, IIRC, called a space elevator. You can find out a lot about it here.

Its a cool idea but the biggest problem seems to be the weight - I've heard physicists dismiss it out of hand for this reason alone - but there does seem to be some progress with new materials. Carbon nanotubes seem to have figured prominently in the press in relation to space elevators. Me, I'll believe it when I see it.
 
 
Mister Remington Finn
19:11 / 08.06.03
the elevator is also used in the Red/Green/Blue Mars books by Kim Lee Robbinson. Building them on mars is cheaper then on Earth. ere they have to be about 40.000 km long (this from my hot stinging brain, I sugeest you look it up yourself)

Also the elevator is also used in a Star Trek Voyager episode as a Locked Room Murder.

Badabing.
NEXT!!!
 
 
Thjatsi
19:41 / 08.06.03
I don't understand why gravity leads to planets being rotated around the sun. Why don't we get sucked directly into it?
 
 
Smoothly
21:03 / 08.06.03
Thanks gents. So, not quite as stupid an idea as i assumed it must be. It seems that there is indeed a fine line.
But Lurid, how can you doubt it? It utilises nanotubes.

Another one if I may: Why does water spiral down the plug hole? I know it has something to do with the rotation of he earth, but I'm not sure what exactly. It was Thjatsi's question that reminded me of that - are they at all related?
 
 
—| x |—
02:55 / 09.06.03
"I don't understand why gravity leads to planets being rotated around the sun. Why don't we get sucked directly into it?"

As far as I understand it, we are falling directly into the sun; however, it is how space is curved by various masses that bends space in ways that turn straight lines into ellipses.

An aside that might be related to your question: if the sun was instaneously replaced by a black hole of the same mass, then the planets would stay in the same orbits.
 
 
Salamander
04:55 / 09.06.03
- are they at all related?

yes nature is self simular across scale, the spiral action in the toilet is a dynamic between the earths gravity and rotaion, water spins the opposite way south of the equator. How the dynamic works is beyond me, anyoneknow why it spins, now I'm curious...
 
 
Lurid Archive
07:48 / 09.06.03
I don't understand why gravity leads to planets being rotated around the sun. Why don't we get sucked directly into it?

I don't think the curvature of space is necessarily a good way to understand this, as this curvature is really just another way to express the fact that gravity attracts. The reason objects orbit rather than fall into the sun is that they have a velocity away from the sun (or at least on a flyby trajectory, if you extend their path on a styraight line). The effect of gravity is to bend this straight path.

Clearly, much depends on the direction and magnitude of the velocity and of the strength of the gravitational field. A fast object moving on a flyby past a weak gravitational source will have a mostly straight path with a curve. If you take a stronger gravity source (or a slower object) the curve becomes greater until at some point you get a slingshot effect, where the moving object approaches, bends round the planet and shoots off into space again. As the gravity source becomes yet stronger, the object can't shoot off into space and returns to describe an elliptical orbit. Yet stronger and you get a spiral into the planet, or just a straight collision. Clearly this will also happen if the object has a velocity directly toward the planet/sun.

It all sounds very delicate, and it is in a sense, but one needs to remember that the ellipses can vary greatly in their difference from a circle (known as eccentricity).
 
 
Lurid Archive
07:53 / 09.06.03
yes nature is self simular across scale

In terms of physics, if you believe Quantum mechanics say, then this isn't true. Hence the reason that we have, in a sense, Newtonian and Quantum mechanics which describe the physics at different scales (and also Relativity for physics at different speeds).
 
 
Quantum
14:21 / 09.06.03
water spins the opposite way south of the equator
This is a fallacy. Although in theory the coriolis force does spin stuff in the opposite direction on the other side of the world, it is almost completely negligible- which direction the water drains depends on the shape of the basin and the water pressure in the tap.

Orbits- the solar system is in a state of dynamic equilibrium, each planet is zooming away from the sun, but being pulled toward it by gravity too, which balance each other out. As Lurid says.

However, on self-similarity- certain shapes crop up a lot (especially circles and spirals) independant of scale. The water going down your plughole, the planets going around the sun, the electrons spinning around a nucleus, they all reflect the same dynamic tension between opposing forces. Things spin.
 
 
Quantum
14:29 / 09.06.03
...also the space station ladder is also called a beanstalk by Larry Niven, and in the Barsoom Project he postulates that it would be better to test the idea on Mars instead of Earth (less gravity, less populace for it to fall on etc.)
The practical issues with it are tensile strength (the material would have to be Damn Strong, like buckyball strong) and size. The cable would have to be thicker at the base and top (I mean like kilometres thick) and the cable would have to extend out twice as far as the space station, and the loss of energy as you send stuff up it might make it unstable etc etc. It's a nice idea but unworkable on Earth for the foreseeable future. Better off building a giant gauss gun in a mountain range and shooting stuff into space that way.
 
 
Enamon
15:24 / 09.06.03
It seems to me to be unworkable at all. I mean, it won't be orbiting around the Earth, instead it will just be hovering right above it. That's impossible. At that height the Earth's gravitational pull is still quite significant. The only reason satellites, the space shuttle, the ISS, and the Moon don't fall down is because they are orbiting around the Earth at a velocity great enough to escape the gravitational pull (look up the answer to the why dont planets fall into the Sun question).

Also, even if the width of the cable is extremely small it would still have an enourmous surface area when you consider its length. Thus it would be extremely unstable because of wind.

A better investment for getting into space would be researching wireless transmission of power and electrostatic propulsion. This would be a better choice since the power supply for propulsion can be located on Earth and not on the craft thus making the craft considerably lighter.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:51 / 09.06.03
Enamon: I mean, it won't be orbiting around the Earth, instead it will just be hovering right above it.

Nuh-uh. Here we're talking about a satellite in geostationary orbit. The satellite is orbiting round the Earth but because the Earth is also spinning round at the same speed, the satellite stays in one place relative to the Earth's surface.

From Wikipedia:

A geostationary orbit is a circular orbit in the equatorial plane, any point on which revolves about the Earth in the same direction and with the same period as the Earth's rotation.


Hope this clears it up for you.
 
 
—| x |—
19:53 / 09.06.03
I don't think the curvature of space is necessarily a good way to understand this, as this curvature is really just another way to express the fact that gravity attracts.

If you want to split hairs…

It doesn’t seem to me that Lurid’s explanation says much more than “gravity attracts” either. I mean, the answer to the question about why gravity doesn’t pull the planets into the sun is going to be based on how we are going to understand gravity. If the answer was simply “gravity attracts” then we haven’t really answered the question! That is, if talking about space curvature merely says “gravity attracts,” then this doesn’t work towards explaining why the gravity of the sun doesn’t attract the planets to fall into it.

To frame this all a little differently, it seems to me that Lurid is answering from a more “classic” perspective and I answer from a perspective of “Relativity”: we answer based on two different models of description. However, this doesn’t appear to make one model more useful than the other or make one explanation “better” than the other.

I mean, Lurid says, “The effect of gravity is to bend this straight path.” And this is very close to what I’ve said, except that on a relativistic model, gravity is the bends and dips of a straight path.

Look, Lurid’s explanation talks about velocity and strength of gravitational fields. In relativity, it seems to me, velocity gets cashed out as kinetic energy, which factors into the ‘E’ of “E = mc^2.” In turn, the energy is understood as contributing to mass of an object and it is the mass of an object that bends space around it.

Now Quantum has put forth the idea of the solar system being in a state of “dynamic equilibrium.” We can understand this in at least the two models that have been put forth. We can understand it on the “classic” model, more or less, as “each planet is zooming away from the sun, but being pulled toward it by gravity too, which balance each other out.” Or, we can understand it based on a relativistic model where each planet, due to its velocity and physical mass, bends space around it. The sun also does this—I imagine that many of us have been exposed to the “rubber sheet” picture where the mass of the sun is like a heavy object settled into “a valley” that it creates upon the rubber sheet. Now, the “dynamic equilibrium” here is that the planets carve out their own valleys within the larger “valley” that the mass of the sun creates. Each specific valley is dependent upon the way the other objects in the solar system also bend space; i.e., the dynamic equilibrium can be seen as a harmony of the various “valleys” that each object creates around itself. In other words, the specific valley that the earth carves out turns into an elliptical “trench” that carries it around the sun due the way that the earth curves space relative to the other bodies of mass that make up our solar system.

Again, it seems to me that either model gives us something to understand as to “why the planets don’t fall into the sun.”
 
 
Lurid Archive
20:26 / 09.06.03
It doesn’t seem to me that Lurid’s explanation says much more than “gravity attracts” either.

Actually, I was trying to give an explanation of how gravity affects motion, rather than providing an explanation for gravity. I just thought that relativity was really going too far given the question.

But maybe you are right, that one should do that, as some people get on well with the rubber sheet model. Although my description works equally well in that model, especially since relativistic effects on planetary orbits are pretty small. (The fact that a planet bends space as well as the sun can be mostly ignored and isn't really the key factor in explaining the elliptical orbit.) You always have to mention the interaction between velocity and gravity, in some form or another, in order to explain this.

Again, it seems to me that either model gives us something to understand as to “why the planets don’t fall into the sun.”

Once you understand elliptical orbits in the classical model, the relativistic model is really a minor modification of it in the cases we are talking about (with much more complex maths). Of course, in general relativity, planetary orbits are no longer ellipses. Still, close enough.
 
 
Linus Dunce
22:18 / 09.06.03
In my day, we didn't have no rubber sheets. We had a rock and a piece of string. We tied the rock to the string, took a hold of the loose end and whirled the rock around above our heads. We were the sun or whatever, the rock was the planet and the string was the gravity. Simple. :-)
 
 
Jack Denfeld
03:52 / 10.06.03
Hey, if you can pull your teeth out cuz they're attached by roots why do old skulls lying around sometimes have teeth in them? Wouldn't the roots eventually disappear like skin? Shouldn't the teeth fall out of the skull?
 
 
Smoothly
08:09 / 10.06.03
However, on self-similarity- certain shapes crop up a lot (especially circles and spirals) independant of scale. The water going down your plughole, the planets going around the sun, the electrons spinning around a nucleus, they all reflect the same dynamic tension between opposing forces. Things spin. - Quantum

Do electrons really spin round the nucleus like moons orbiting a planet? I thought this was a convenient fiction....you know, for kids.

I've always had this dull preoccupation with scale, and was under the impression that the world becomes very different place when you change it. But is it more like a fractal? Does the universe at the atomical level bear many similarities to the universe at the astronomical level?
 
 
Mister Remington Finn
14:50 / 10.06.03
well in the books of Kim Lee Robbinson, they hooked a carbon based asteroid from the belt, and put an automatic factory on it that churned out the cable. So the cable is made from Carbon. For ten whole years. I trust him to know what he´s writing about (in the mars series anyways. The Mars resistance blew the cable and the asteroid was yanked towards Jupiter.

On the subject of stupid questions:
I dont know if you all know Sir Patrick Moore (big(or famous) astronomer). He was in a kids show, and kids fired all these questions at him. At first I was afraid he would give them answers they couldn´t understand, for he would choose to tell the truth instead of candycoating it or dummyfying it. But no.
First question: Why doesnt the earth stop spinning?
His answer: There is simpy nothing there to stop it

Brilliant
Almost Zen
 
 
grant
15:09 / 10.06.03
Hey, if you can pull your teeth out cuz they're attached by roots why do old skulls lying around sometimes have teeth in them? Wouldn't the roots eventually disappear like skin? Shouldn't the teeth fall out of the skull?

They do, actually. It might be easier to show a diagram of a whole tooth:



normal dental x-ray above and an impacted wisdom tooth below



You can kind of see that the gum (the meaty tissue) is a pretty thin layer over a bone socket. The roots of the tooth are just sort of twisted into that meaty stuff. When it dries up and decomposes after death, the teeth just rattle in the empty sockets. They can usually just be picked out with yer fingers, and often just fall out on their own. It's a problem if you're collecting skulls (I used to - animals, not people). A cougar skull I had was a big problem in this regard -- the teeth were slenderer, and it had been found out in a desert so all the fleshy bits were thoroughly dessicated.

Do electrons really spin round the nucleus like moons orbiting a planet? I thought this was a convenient fiction....you know, for kids.



Yes, it's a convenient fiction in most ways. For one thing, the attractive force isn't gravity. I think it's electromagnetic force although there's been recent stuff with the so-called electro-weak force that I don't entirely get.

For another thing, electrons aren't solid in the way planets are solid. They exist at that point of smallness and fastness where mass and energy become indistinguishable - both particle (mass) and wave (energy) depending on how you want to talk about them.

The path of an electron is similar to an orbit, and is described as an orbit, but it's my understanding that it's a spherical orbit, not an elliptical plane.

All the planets (except Pluto, which probably came along later) orbit the Sun along a single, flat area - kinda like they're grapes rolling around on an oval dinner plate. That flat plane is called the ecliptic.

It's my belief (correct if I'm mistaken) that electrons would be more like ultra-fast ball bearings whizzing around the inside of a circular (not elliptical) fishbowl. Or more like a set of fishbowls, one inside the other. If one of the BBs starts getting hotter or another stray BB comes along (the atom increases energy), the BB bumps out to the next goldfish bowl out.

There's a better description here, if you want it. The "halo orbit" stuff is kinda confusing, but it makes a kind of sense if the electron can be spinning around *anywhere* in that sphere.

Oh, and like planets, electrons do rotate (spin) as well as revolve around the nucleus. It's something they're using in quantum computing and it makes my head hurt.
 
 
tom-karika nukes it from orbit
18:35 / 10.06.03
Heres my understanding of the whole gravity problem. It doesn't involve any space-curvature or E= mc whatsits.

There are two forces involved in a satellite orbiting a body. They are balanced.

The first force is the force of attraction between two masses, that we call gravity. It can be given as GMm/r^2, where G is a universal constant, 'M' is the mass of one object (say the sun) and 'm' is the mass of the other (say earth). 'r' is the distance between the two masses.

Gravity is one of the five fundamental forces of physics.

The second force, which balances the gravitational attraction, is known as the centripetal force.

Consider a snooker ball on a string. Now take the string and twirl it around your head. Can you feel the force outwards exerted by the string on your hand, away from the center of it's orbit? If you spin the ball faster, the force gets stronger. If you make the string longer, the force gets weaker. If you make the ball heavier, the force gets stronger again. The force can be given as mv^2/r. 'm' is the mass of the ball, 'v' it's velocity and 'r' the length of the string. This is the centripetal force. In this case it is balanced by the tension in string. In the case of an orbiting planet, it is balanced by the gravitational attraction between the two masses.

If the gravitational force is greater than the centripetal force, then it will cause the planet to plunge into the sun. If, on the other hand, the centripetal force is greater, then we would fly off out of the solar system. As it is, it's nicely balanced.
 
 
grant
18:37 / 10.06.03
Five fundamental forces? Where'd you get that from?
 
 
Saint Keggers
21:15 / 10.06.03
Why can't you go faster than the speed of light?
 
 
—| x |—
22:26 / 10.06.03
"Why can't you go faster than the speed of light?"

Well, with respect to bodies with any sort of mass, I think it's that it takes an infinite amount of energy to even get close to the speed of light and more energy than is availabe in the whole of the universe to actually go the speed of light. There's likely other factors involved as well.

It seems to me that FTL (faster than light) travel would be backwards through time and that light speed travel would be instantaneous in time.
 
 
—| x |—
22:37 / 10.06.03
I might well be out to lunch on this, but with regard to electrons and orbits, isn't more that the electron(s) occupy any and all positions around the nucleus until there is a certain type of measurement made? The electrons generally act like a ghost, fog, or mist around the shell of the nucleus. However, if we measure for position, then we can pinpoint where a particular electron is, but then we loose all information about its velocity--the Uncertainty Principle.

It seems to me that an electron might be more "conceptual" than "actual" or more "virtual" than "real"--seeing how most of the time it doesn't really have an existence in a precise location of space, and when it momentarily does display an actual position it is merely a point-like entity.
 
 
Lurid Archive
07:40 / 11.06.03
It seems to me that an electron might be more "conceptual" than "actual" or more "virtual" than "real"

I think that is right. I mean, combining the uncertainty principle and the fairly standard Copenhagen Interpretation you get that an electron just doesn't have an exact position. This is less of a mind fuck than it first appears. For instance, if you look at a wave, where is the wave? It is in lots of places at once, some more prominently than others.

Actually, I think a lot of the boggling aspects of quantum mechanics come down to the fact that we have a set of analogies, derived from experience, that we try to apply to every new thing. For electrons, which are way beyond everyday experience, these analogies don't fit (whereas the maths does).
 
 
Olulabelle
10:22 / 11.06.03
Right. This is a REALLY stupid science question, so please don't all laugh at once, only none of the questions so far seem particularly stupid to me. Rather, they're extremely clever and the answers are bending my brain a bit.

So:

Can anyone tell me in a right-brained way, what exactly is Quantum Mechanics?
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:53 / 11.06.03
There are no stupid questions, olulabelle. (Though, I'm sure your left brain is as functional as anyone else's and I don't buy the simplistic division anyway. But thats another topic.)

Classical (or Newtonian) mechanics is used to refer in physics to the study of forces acting on bodies. This involves both motion and statics (how much pressure is that bridge under?). It deals with everyday type objects.

But it turns out that things go funny once you move out of the everyday. In particular, in turns out that very small objects have some peculiar properties. For instance, rather than being all smooth, some things, like energy, are "lumpy" (or discrete). Energy comes in small "quanta" or packets, hence the name Quantum mechanics.

You also get the uncertainty principle that says measuring small things exactly is impossible, you always get errors. (Some would say that the whole idea of measuring things on a tiny or quantum scale is meaningless.) And, of course there is wave-particle duality, that says electrons exhibit behaviour of both waves and particles.

On the whole, there is a pretty counter-intuitive load of physics that applies to small things. But rather than saying, "what the fuck!?!", you say, "ahhh, yes. Quantum Mechanics.".
 
 
Olulabelle
12:14 / 11.06.03
So...erm...classical mechanics is the elephant in stilletto's thing, right? And quantum mechanics has to do with the measurements of tiny things like electrons and particles which don't conform to the parameters of classical mechanics? And which are sometime not explainable?
 
 
Smoothly
12:38 / 11.06.03
I believe it's more that it's not explainable in a 'familiar' way, olulabelle. The aphorism that sticks out in my mind is that 'if you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics'.
 
 
.
12:59 / 11.06.03
OK, so here's something to do with the whole geostationary orbits and giant ladders to space stuff.

This site suggests that

"Suppose you climbed to the top of a ladder that was 300 miles tall. You would be up in the vacuum of space, but you would not be weightless at all. You'd only weigh fifteen percent less than you do on the ground. When 300 miles out in space, a 200lb person would weigh 170lb. Yet a spacecraft can orbit 'weightlessly' at the height of your ladder! While you're up there, you might see the Space Shuttle zip right by you. The people inside it would seem as weightless as always. Yet on your tall ladder, you'd feel nearly normal weight."

Now this sounds odd to me, or at least it's something I've never heard of before. Anyhow, if one was to build a giant ladder up to a space station, would the occupants of said space station then stop feeling weightless? Would this require the ladder to support the weight of the station? If the space station were to hang the ladder from the station back to earth, rather than vice-versa, then presumably they would still feel weightless?
 
 
Quantum
13:48 / 11.06.03
Feynmann said anyone who claimed to understand quantum mechanics was lying. And he got a nobel prize in it (IIRC) so he knows what he doesn't understand.
'Lula- Quantum Mechanics (and Quantum Electrodynamics) are basically the physics of very small things (subatomic ie. smaller than atoms). The problem with describing it is that it makes no sense and is completely counterintuitive. For example, the electron orbiting the nucleus is true, and simultaneously the electron as a wave wrapped around the nucleus is also true (wave particle duality).
e.g.-The 'planetary' electron can only orbit at specific 'heights' (energy levels) that are exact integers of the wave frequency (the end of the wave has to join itself, you can't have two-and-a-half waves for example) which are properties of the wave. So the electron-as-a-particle is constrained by qualities of the electron-as-a-wave- it is literally both. (additionally the more exactly we measure one quality the less we can know about the other, we can either know it's position or momentum but not both, the uncertainty principle)

FOUR fundamental forces- Gravity, the Strong nuclear force (keeps atoms together), the Weak nuclear force (keeps molecules together) and the Electromagnetic force (light, heat, radio etc.)
http://www.aip.org/physnews/graphics/html/fforces.htm
 
 
Quantum
14:05 / 11.06.03
'lulabelle- rereading my post it occurs to me it might not have made it any clearer, so in a right brain way it goes like this...
Classical or Newtonian physics is taught in school, atoms are like billiard balls, the universe is like clockwork, laws of motion etc.
Relativity superceded that (Einstein) and is all about spactime curvature and the speed of light etc. Importantly proved that matter and energy are interchangable (E=MCsquared, the energy of a thing is equal to it's mass times the speed of light squared, so a little matter equals a lot of energy)
Quantum physics came about in the 1920s and is the difficult child of relativity. Atoms are clouds of probabilities nothing like any object we experience at a macro level, parallel worlds are created all the time, subatomic particles are also waves (and pop in and out of existence randomly) and simply by observing things we influence them (NOT because the light bounces off them and affects them but because our consciousness affects the outcome directly)
It also proved the existence of sixteen dimensions (at least) that Einstein theorised, and has created antimatter (which is matter going backwards in time)

Recent theories put forward by quantum physics include superstring theory (electrons etc. are actually loads of dimensions twisted up like a ball of yarn) Hawking's dark matter theory (tiny black holes appear and disappear all the time everywhere) and that the universe exists in a medium of quantum foam, tiny bubbles of spacetime that spontaneously appear and disappear moment to moment.
So it's getting weirder....
 
 
Quantum
14:10 / 11.06.03
Why can't you go faster than the speed of light?
Relativity. Because the faster you go the more mass you get i.e. because E=MCsquared. Also the faster you go the slower time goes according to your frame of reference, so if you did get to the speed of light the universe would end. Also because your spaceship would be destroyed by the forces, etc.
On the other hand Hyperspace will allow you to go faster than the speed of light avoiding all these problems, assuming it exists.
 
  

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