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Anti-Israel sentiment sweeps Barbelith?

  
  

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Tucker Tripp
11:03 / 13.09.01
... He says with a sinking feeling.

I thought we were past all this bullshit.

I have noticed over the past little while here there seems to be a growing anti-Israel feeling in this place. This really saddens and disappoints me considering I thought that distinctions on the basis of race, relgious or other biases were unfounded and silly.

Now here is the dilema I realise there is a difference between being anti-semitic and anti-Israel. The problem arises when being anti-Israel (politically) is used as an excuse for being anti-semitic.

I know we all come from different backgrounds and countries in the world. This is part of what makes this place great, the more diverse the better.

I'm not supporting everything Israel does they are a political power they are not innocent, just like any government. But I also wonder why Israel gets singled out as being a terrible evil place when so much evil is perpetrated all over the world.

I find that politics is often used to cloud issues. Politics is usually used to marginalise people and cause sides. This is why I spend most of my time in Magick.

I feel like I wish I didn't have to write this thread. Maybe I didn't and if I'm wrong forgive me. But I had to write it because I feel that any discrimination based on stupidity should be dispensed with.

Another thing that makes this place great is that we will never all agree. But lets strive to make those disagreements about issues/things/notions we know about, feel dear about but especially have reasons for - please.

Otherwise why talk. I think this place strives to be about all of the most pure elements of communication. Lets remember that.
 
 
sleazenation
11:35 / 13.09.01
The state of Israel is not well liked outside the US for a number of reasons not least of which is that it was a country that was imposed upon the Palestinian population of the middle east region when it was created.
[The politics underlying Israel's creation are tangled but have much to do with Britain recognising a need for a jewish homeland in the middle east, an area that Britain at the time controlled]


America and many western Democracies see Israel as a stabalising influence and as the only democratically elected government in the region.

Unfortuantely Israel is also a state that has expansionist policies (underlined by the right of free return whereby any jew can claim citizenship in the state of Israel.)


This is just off the top of my head. Please correct me people in any innacurate statements i have made.

[ 13-09-2001: Message edited by: sleazenation ]
 
 
deletia
11:41 / 13.09.01
By posting this, synth-ese, you are effectively employing exactly the same techniques used by Hitler.

Gosh, I appear to have raised the emotional temperature by accusing you of being like Hitler. That's not going to help a reasoned debate.

You know another really good way to forestall intelligent debate?

Accuse anyone who says something you don't like of anti-semitism.

Israel's current elected administration is pursuing particular policies. The US supports these policies, whether in deed or by continued financial and political support. Certain people are unhappy with these policies, and with the apparent popular support within Israel for them.

Certain people like, say, Amos Oz. Is he an anti-semite, do you think? Does he beat himself up every night after changing into his pyjamas but before brushing his teeth?

As far as I can tell, there has been no anti-semitism, veiled or otherwise, in comments on the conduct of the Israeli government. In fact, the only people who have drawn accusations of anti-semitism have been....ooo, the Greenland Posse. You may have encountered them. THey spend a lot of time in The Magick, where politics doesn't cloud the issues - issues like the sinister influence of the word "solomon".

The most pure elements of communication presumably not shouting down as bigotted any dissenting opinions. Wouldn't you say?

So, tell us where you have detected anti-semitic feeling. Otherwise I fear we will have to start condemning people who disagree with the Zanu-PF's approach to land reform of racism....
 
 
autopilot disengaged
11:55 / 13.09.01
synth:

it's easy to disapprove of Israel's actions and not be anti-semetic. i do it all the time.

whenever i see Israeli troops shooting the fuck out of Palestinian youths armed only with rocks, for instance. or when i heard that the Israeli Govt was trying to legalise torture as a valid method of interrogation.

even since the bombings - the tanks have rolled back into action with 9 Palestinians dead the last i heard. one of whom was an 11-yr old girl. Israel claimed the attacks were in self-defence. the attacks weren't even in Israel.
 
 
fluid_state
11:55 / 13.09.01
I think to call any reactions here anti-Israel (MUCH better than anti-semitic) is accurate as much as the Palestinians are "anti-u.s.".... neither racist nor zealous, just a reaction against the actions of governing bodies of the nations in question. anti-terror as opposed to anti-personnel. slices taken out of context.
 
 
Ierne
12:17 / 13.09.01
In fact, the only people who have drawn accusations of anti-semitism have been....ooo, the Greenland Posse. You may have encountered them. THey spend a lot of time in The Magick, where politics doesn't cloud the issues - issues like the sinister influence of the word "solomon". – Haus

I'll try to keep this short, because it's off-topic. Those folks in the "Greenland Posse" tend to spew forth a lot of negativity in many directions (not just anti-semitism), and the general consensus seems to be that they are "amusing crackpots" so their bullshit, bandwidth-hogging posts are not deleted as often as perhaps they shoud be.

But they are NOT often found at the Magic thread, Haus. I've seen their tedious regurgitations far more often in the Head Shop or Laboratory. They certainly don't represent the Magick board, or the level of intelligent interaction one can find there.

Sorry. back to regular programming.
 
 
Tucker Tripp
12:18 / 13.09.01
Thank-you for your prompt replys.

Willow: I don't know who you think you are but lack of civility is a good way to "forestall intelligent debate". I was expressing concern as I think is evident from my post. Your response most of which seemed to involve shouting me down indicates you have a problem with this. Care to express that in a constructive way. I know your trying to get a "rise" out of me so I'll just sit here a politely ask you to back up one or more of your statements.

sleazenation: Makes sense to me. I think I agree with you. I don't have all the facts.

autopilot disengaged: But why are you anti-Israel? I read the BBC report about this attack too it mentions that Israel beleived the targets to be suicide bomber training centres. We may or may not believe this but how can you know?

solid_state: Excellent point but I don't see that being anti-state (which ever one) is much better. They are generally niether all good nor all bad. And if you think they are all bad is that the same as saying the people under that state aren't the same too? I'm not saying it is I'm just asking where we draw the line?

And again Willow if you feel the need to attack me personally don't do it here start a new thread so we can really see some blood fly.
 
 
autopilot disengaged
12:26 / 13.09.01
synth:

i'm not anti-Israel. i never said i was. what i said was i 'disapprove of Israel's actions'. which, especially in the instances already outlined, i have.

and i don't think i need to explain why i disapprove of these particular actions - the most recent of which happened only last night.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:26 / 13.09.01
synth, could you provide some examples of the kind of anti-Israeli feeling you think is common on this board? Feel free to cut and paste from people's posts.
 
 
deletia
12:38 / 13.09.01
Synth: You implied that people criticising Israel were doing so because they were anti-Semites. Which strikes me as an astonishing piece fo 2shouting down"

My question was, quite simply, whether this applied universally, including to such notable critics of the Likud's action as the Jewish, Israeli novelist and thinker Amos Oz.

Because I feel that citing anti-Semitism to undermine any position critical of Israel's actions as a state is not incomparable, as I mentioned, to citing racism to counter any criticism of the Zanu-PF's actions in Zimababwe. Lazy and likely to devalue the coin of the words when they are used to confront actual incidences of racism or anti-Semitism.

And, as I and Flyboy (rather more politely) have now suggested, why not give some examples of where you feel anti-Semitic views have been expressed on the board? Because to suggest that people who don't hold your views are anti-semites, without any support? That shows something of a lack of civility.

[ 13-09-2001: Message edited by: The Haus of Willow ]
 
 
deletia
12:46 / 13.09.01
Ierne: You are quite correct. They were uppermost in my mind as present on the Magick due to going completely beyond the pale in their St. Patrick thread. However, their actions should not be taken as representative of Barbeloids in general.

Merely pointing out that to suggest one area or another of Barbelith is more "pure" than another is both dangerous and numpty-headed.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
12:54 / 13.09.01
I will say that for some time I personally have been angered by the fact that the U.S. blindly supports virtually everything Israel does, and I suspect it has less to do with supporting their ideals and more to do with Israel's strategic location and relative wealth compared to those currently attacking it.

That said, I don't think that there is a winner, or as my president so %eloquently% has put it, a "good" or an "evil," rather I would say that the U.S. does seem pretty obviously biased in favor of Israel in terms of the middle east conflict, and I don't think that that's fair.
 
 
Tucker Tripp
13:01 / 13.09.01
Sorry autopilot I mistook disapproved of as anti-. You are right my mistake. But how would you suggest Israel handle the threats to the saftey of their general public.

Now in response to where did I get this idea. For starters let me clarify. I started this thread with reservation and not in accusation, but out of concern.

Examples of threads are : Jack Fear's, Zionism thread. The US & Israel leave anti-racism in a huff thread. There were others which I can't remeber off hand.And Flyboy something you quoted about an "independant" Israeli commentator on Moslem issues. Which is obviously almost funny but given everything else just pushed me to writing this thread.

I'm sorry I havn't cutnpasted but my connection is very slow tonight and if I did it would take me all night. If I come across anything in the near future I'll be sure to post it here.

I'd also like to say that one point I do agree with Willow, even though he has taken almost everything I've said out of context, is that discussing these issues without basis causes them to be seen as lighter when the shit really hits the fan (or something to that effect).

Anyway I just wanted to say again that I didn't start this thread lightly. Nor am I accusing anyone. I am responding to information that I have intercepted.
People are entitled to their views. And this being a forum for pretty free expression I guess I would like to hear them. Maybe I'm asking too much i don't know?


I'd also like to say and this has no relevance to anyone but me that I'm usually on the other side of this debate. And that shit has a weird way of slappin' you upside the head when you least expect it.

My main problem with this, and yes there are emotional ties but still, is when I see a general consensus that seems to be based in opinion yet people are so certain of it. It must be the Devils Advocate gene or something. I'm not pro-Israel nor am I anti-Israel when I hear a lot of information supporting one opinion I feel the need to ask why (and usually present another one).

Its very easy to mount political arguments all you have to do is find a hero a victim a circumstance and go. The problem is with enough information this can go on forever. Therefore I am more interested in asking why people hold certain opinons about political situation, no matter what they are.

[ 13-09-2001: Message edited by: synth - esis ]
 
 
deletia
13:10 / 13.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Cherry Bomb:
I will say that for some time I personally have been angered by the fact that the U.S. blindly supports virtually everything Israel does, and I suspect it has less to do with supporting their ideals and more to do with Israel's strategic location and relative wealth compared to those currently attacking it.


Ah, but put yourself in Israel's place. You are the only Jewish state in the world, surrounded by nations who see your existence not just as a convenient landing-strip for American expansionism, but also a religious and geopolitical abomination. Bear in mind that right now you have nukes and they don't, but this is changing under your feet, and you are massively outnumbered with only the presence of an isolationist nation several thousand miles away to back you up.

Wouldn't you want your borders as firm and as far away from your capital as possible?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:13 / 13.09.01
Synth, if you're going to get anywhere near this, you need to cite specific instances. I haven't noticed a great deal of anti-Israeli comment here, but I haven't read every single post of every thread yet, either.

I have had significant problems with the actions of Israel in the past - the illegal settlements which are denied but abundant are a good example. I'm not content that the current government in Israel is doing the peace process any good. Nor yet are some of the more obnoxious Palestinian leaders... but rubbing them out cannot help soothe the tensions.

I also have (and have had) grave problems with the actions of the Arab states. And more generally, at one time or another with those of the US, Britain, France, Austrlia, Germany, China...need I continue?

I suspect that one of the things which unites posters here is a distrust of government and policies which are oppressive or unfair. Israel would be unique in the world if it did not have any, or if I didn't have a few issues with it.

So the question becomes "Does Israel get special treatment, negative or positive?" And the answer is "no".

Unless you can show me otherwise.

[ 13-09-2001: Message edited by: Nick ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
13:27 / 13.09.01
I just read the threads in question for the first time after reading Synth-esis's concerns and I don't see a lot of anti-semitism but, as others have pointed out, posters who disagree with the political actions of the Israeli government and the way that the concept of Zionism has been applied in reality.

The only time that racism really entered the topic was with the "Ice Honkey against the board" subplot.

Synth-esis, reread the threads, you might not see the same thing you saw before. And if you do still feel that way, please post examples.
 
 
Tucker Tripp
13:34 / 13.09.01
Ah Nick, Once again sumerised with the elegance of someone very eloquent. I agree.

Israel seems to get special treatment in terms of media coverage, attention and scrutiny. Or is this just my paranoia?
On first anaylsis this seems unfair but if you think about it probably just keeps the bastards a bit more honest. So the unfair bit is that many other governments commiting crimes are for some reason far less interesting to the media and therefore not forced to justify their actions as much. Or have I just gone off on a really bizarre tangent here?
 
 
Tucker Tripp
13:51 / 13.09.01
Thank-you all for your kind replies. I am reassured that barbelith is once again a safe place for the old synth. I really have to go to bed its really late here and I have to get up soon. I honestly feel much better about the whole thing. I love this place the loose lucidity...

Thanks again, sorry if I offended anyone. But don't stop posting here I'll be back asap. I just thought it was polite to say g'night.

Lothar: good suggestion, will do next time
 
 
Naked Flame
20:24 / 14.09.01
I think you're all naturally contentious and would be more or less radically opposed to anything if it was armed, monied, and/or didn't recognise the validity of each and every human tribe. Which is why I keep coming back to this place.
 
 
Ganesh
22:09 / 14.09.01
I think it's perfectly valid to keep questioning and challenging those around you - just try to stay civil.

Speaking personally, my own views on Israel were largely influenced by a holiday I took (with my partner) there, four years ago. We visited Jerusalem with high expectations, only for them to be steadily quashed by: a) the sense of (literally) 'holier than thou' godliness ('We are the Chosen'); b) the trainspottery 'letter rather than the spirit of the law' interpretation of God's Law (female 'temptresses' shouldn't grow their hair, but shaving it and wearing a wig is perfectly acceptable) and; c) the casually contemptuous attitude towards the Arabs, steering us (very physically) past shops that weren't Israeli-approved and warning us not to even engage with perfectly innocent Arab vendors ("Don't talk to those people, they will rob you").

Okay, disclaimer: it's hardly fair to generalise from one holiday experience. In any case, we came away with the impression that the Israelis were smug, arrogant, self-satisfied and contemptuous of their neighbours - having apparently learned nothing from the bloodiness of history. We were disillusioned, to say the least.

[ 15-09-2001: Message edited by: Ganesh ]
 
 
Naked Flame
15:38 / 15.09.01
You forgot all the women wearing fake beards to the stonings.
 
 
Planet B
09:55 / 17.09.01
I am not anti-semitic, but I am anti-Israel (not really anti but opposed to their policies). I am also an american who is anti-US most of the time and this past week has done little to change any of these positions. US and its imposed colonialism in Israel (don't act like that nation was created out of thin air. it wasn't. the land was appropriated illegally and more illegally after that) are much to blame for this week's tragic events. Do I hate Jews? No. Do I hate violence on both sides? Yes. But since we are the supposed "civilized, democratic" nation, shouldn't we be leading the way instead of leading to more death and violence (by blindly allowing Israel to continue its own terrorist policies -- which is not to say they aren't victims of terrorism also). You know what, let's just get rid of all the organized religions and their governments and we'll call it even!
 
 
Planet B
09:55 / 17.09.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Willow:


Ah, but put yourself in Israel's place. You are the only Jewish state in the world, surrounded by nations who see your existence not just as a convenient landing-strip for American expansionism, but also a religious and geopolitical abomination.
Wouldn't you want your borders as firm and as far away from your capital as possible?

"Abomination"?? Is that anti-Arab? that is a strong sentiment to toss out without substantiation, though it obviously true among some peoples in the Arab world. My question, though is why does Israel think they have the right to take occupied land stolen from Palestine and to segregate Palestinians in what are basically reservations? I don't have a problem with Israel's right to be, but when the US and UK forced them into the region by military might, we knew this would be the ongoing outcome. Why didn't they come up with a real and democratic solution from the beginning? Conspiracy theories abound on that one... so I'll leave it at that.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:55 / 17.09.01
quote:Originally posted by DJ Plan B:


My question, though is why does Israel think they have the right to take occupied land stolen from Palestine and to segregate Palestinians in what are basically reservations?

Because, they believe that it was their land originally and they've finally gotten it back after millennia of being without their homeland (or any homeland).

Just to play devil's advocate (I personally don't support most of Israel's policies), if other indigenous people were to try and get support for the return of their lands from later settlers/colonists/invaders, there would be at least some politically correct advocates that would support the idea.

I think that's one of the reasons why Israel doesn't understand why there is antogonism against them.
 
 
Planet B
09:55 / 17.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:


if other indigenous people were to try and get support for the return of their lands from later settlers/colonists/invaders, there would be at least some politically correct advocates that would support the idea.


Obviously, there's a case to be made, say in the US with native Americans, but thousands of years??? I think the relevant point is the WAY in which Israel was created -- taking over land by force and displacing Palestinians. That's why I think the US is as much to blame, for installing Israel and supporting them financially/military ever since. Who ever thought that they could just do that and that everything would work out??? This is the kind of flawed political thinking that is still in use in the US govt -- and it is exactly the problem. That and our secretive security state that hides the terrorism the US govt creates, but that's another thread.
 
 
deletia
09:55 / 17.09.01
My point being that there *is* a case which a supporter of current Israeli policy towards Palestine could give; they aren't just shooting up Palestinian settlements for the Hell of it.

Doesn't stop Likud's behaviour being generally dangerous and numpty-headed, and at present very ill-advised indeed.
 
 
Planet B
09:36 / 18.09.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Willow:
My point being that there *is* a case which a supporter of current Israeli policy towards Palestine could give; they aren't just shooting up Palestinian settlements for the Hell of it.

They aren't??? Could've fooled me. I always wondered how they thought bombing the Palestinian Authority (basically the police in Palestine) was going to keep people from attacking Israelis...

They keep bombing these Palestinians claiming they are strongholds of suicide bombers and other terrorists. If they KNOW this, why don't they prove it, go in with the PA and arrest these people?? Too logical?

Everyone knows they're building their own version of the Berlin Wall right now, right?
Yahoo News
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
11:50 / 18.09.01
That's one scary-ass link. Particularly the bits about Palestinians trying to get across being 'arrested and sentenced'. So much for due process. Also interesting to see four times as many Palestinians killed as Israelis.

As for the 'Get orf moi laand' argument, I don't think it works. Go back far enough and you can probably find a few dozen previous 'owners', most of whom would have been conquered/killed/kicked out by the next bunch.
 
 
grant
15:31 / 18.09.01
Book of Joshua.
 
 
autopilot disengaged
17:46 / 18.09.01
quote:The assault on Ramallah adds ot a catalogue of Israeli actrions since the attack on America last Tuesday. Israel has:

...announced that it would declare areas in the West Bank adjacent to the Green Line military zones, which means that Palestinians found without passes are liable to be shot;

...sent its armour into the desert town of Jericho, the uietest in the West Bank during the last year of upheaval;

...advanced into Jenin, on whose perimeter troops are now dug in;

...launched missile strikes on Palestinian security posts in Gaza;

...used tanks to shell a suburb of Bethlehem, killing an ambulance driver at the weekend;

...tightened the siege of the cities of Tulkaram and Qalqiliya. (The Guardian)

yeah: right now i'm feeling pretty fucking anti-Israel.
 
 
deletia
08:09 / 19.09.01
Hey! But a fragile truce has broken out, through the simple expedient of Bush suggesting that the US may not wholly support the wholesale machine-gunning of Palestinian teenagers at this difficult time. Sort of makes you wish he'd thought of it a bit earlier...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:33 / 19.09.01
Perhaps someone changed his batteries.
 
 
Tucker Tripp
08:20 / 21.09.01
I know I'm going to get in trouble for this one.

So let take it for granted that we believe all the news reports?....

Where do all the Israelis go. As in solutions?
 
 
deletia
08:28 / 21.09.01
He's got a point. The Western Media are famous for their pro-Arab bias...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:40 / 21.09.01
Oh, for Goodness' sake.

'Where do they go'?

How is it that Jews, Arabs, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, and what all else were perfectly able to live with each other in Islamic nations for centuries (in fact man Christians prefered Muslem rule to Christian Byzantian) but now it's all impossible?

No one goes anywhere. Bit by bit, everyone has to be dragged to a state of not killing people, and then they'll realise that actually it is possible to share the holy places. Just like the always did before.
 
  

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