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Fatherly versus motherly love

 
 
Olulabelle
19:40 / 26.05.03
Do children need their mothers more than they need their fathers?

At what age do children become capable of coping without their mother there on a day to day basis? At what age can they successfully manage to grow up into fully rounded and grounded adults if they no longer have their mother around all the time? There are many, many adults I know who appear to have done very well without their father’s constant presence, and although some of them may end up with absent father ‘issues’ they are still capable, functioning, happy human-beings. However, the general societal consensus of opinion seems to be that for children to grow up without their mothers is fundamentally damaging, and well, just wrong.

Is a mother’s influence more important than a father’s? Do one-parent families headed by a male do as well as those headed by a female? And if not, why not? What makes a mother better equipped to bring up a child of either sex on her own? Why are fathers not considered to be a satisfactory lone parent? Is there any actually evidence to support this theory, or is it all assumption and media suggestion?

Obviously I'm aware that the ideal scenario for bringing up children is to have both parents present throughout their childhood, but if this isn't possible I wonder how lone father families fare? I’m not talking about absent mothers, just families where the father is the main carer, and the mother takes on the ‘normal’ single parent father role of being the weekend parent or however the family arranges access.

I’ve been trying to think of the major parenting differences between mothers and fathers, and I guess the most obvious ones are that mothers are generally more tactile, good to cuddle, good for comfort, whereas fathers take a more guiding, advisory role. But when the child is small, fathers are equally available for cuddles and comfort. Mothers tend to be the major disciplinarians for minor misdemeanours (eat your broccoli, clean your teeth) and fathers tend to get the job of major discipline – bad behaviour at school, or public misbehaviour. Children seem to need to impress their fathers more than their mothers, but I’m not sure whether this is a need for approval because it’s Dad, or just that the child knows it’s mother is already as proud as she can be regardless.

I know this is a lot of questions and not much of an opening theory for discussion, but I find for most people the whole subject is very difficult to discuss with any open mindedness as they have such strong opinions about it. If you introduce the topic people in general tend to look at you in a wild and horrified fashion, before stating: A. Child. Needs. It’s. Mother. End debate.

So I thought maybe Lith would be the ideal place to have a sensible and rational conversation about it...
 
 
jeff
22:44 / 26.05.03
Well, it seems that this question cannot progress beyond "errrr, y'know" without someone with experience of single-motherhood/fatherhood or any other parental situation relaying their experience either first or second hand.

What I can add concerning the suggestion that the child knows it’s mother is already as proud as she can be IMHO is bollocks.

The other point I would suggest is that a child has differnt needs as it grows up and perhaps these stages of growing up should be addressed in turn.

P.S. Have you just watched Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade?
 
 
SMS
00:19 / 27.05.03
I think that too often, fathers think that it's okay to spend little time with their children. When this is true it may appear that the father is less important to the child than the mother, because subtracting a mediocre parent would cause less of a problem than removing a very good parent.

My family, both extended and immediate, has not generally worked this way. If I think of my relatives, I cannot think of more than a couple that would have fared better being raised by a widow/divorcee than by a widower/divorce.

A. Child. Needs. Its. Mother. End debate.
Yes, but a child needs his father, too.

A slight problem (or advantage) with talking about this on Barbelith is that we cannot talk about fatherly love or motherly love as two separate, objective truths. To suggest that some difference in kind or degree of love is associated with sex might be sexist. I might be willing to admit that the kind of love a mother feels will be different from the kind of love a father feels, but I cannot admit that one is more important than another.

Here's a study that might be relavent:

A new study reinforces the notion that a father's absence during his daughter's childhood can have a negative impact on the girl's sexual behavior. But the research challenges previous studies suggesting poverty is the main reason such girls are at a higher risk for early sexual activity and pregnancy. NPR's Rachel Jones reports.
http://discover.npr.org/features/feature.jhtml?wfId=1268605
 
 
No star here laces
09:08 / 27.05.03
The trouble with these kinds of discussions is that debate centres around what is 'good' for the child, as evidenced by what kind of adult the child ends up becoming. But as we have no objective measure of what a good outcome looks like, i.e. what kind of adult is best, there can be no possible resolution.

I mean, suppose one-parent families are more likely to have gay offspring. Is this good or bad?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:09 / 27.05.03
I think Laces makes a very good point there. We can apply metrics - say, the average income over a ten-year period, the level of education, the likelihood of being in counselling, for example - but to tie those in to the exact effects of parenting is going to be very tricky. For example, if I have an absent father, then maybe as a child I overachieve, aiming for approval, and this gets me into and through a good college, into a good job, etc. But then at some point my resentment and distrust of authority figures emerges, and affects my life adversely. It's a tricky one....

Also, as SMatthew mentions, I'm not sure it's productive to locate specific acts of parenting with the different genders. Certainly there are traditional roles for parents, but these are sufficiently inadequate to describe the modern family that they might need a bit of work. For example, they are predicated on the assumption that families "normally" have two parents, a father who works and provides and a mother who stays at home and nurtures. That seesm to describe a comparatively small (i.e. comparative to, say, thirty years ago, although probably still statistically the majority(?)). But it clearly *doesn't* describe an awful lot of families. so, to what extent are the roles of father and mother the consequence of the strengths man and woman might be supposed to bring to the table, and how much are they directed by who is around, or by codes of behaviour that said that women could not work or own property once they were married, so had little to do except raise children?

The one-parent family is a pretty good place to start with this question. Is it the case that in a single-parent family, be that parent male or female, the traditional roles of the other parent are simply *missing*, or is there some process where the different areas of parenting are pulled together and mised together? I generally suspect that the problems facing a lot of single-parent families, and the children of many single-parent families, are not a result so much of a missing element but of the greater difficulty of producing both money and attention for the child in the required amounts. There's some interesting stuff in this thread about how single or dual parenthood might affect a child.

Oh, and on the question in the abstract - Why are men not considered to be as capable of bringing up children on their own as women? - this raises an interesting set of questions. Mothers are immediately associated with nurturing, caring, rearing - in the thread linked to above, the thesis was advanced that women rarely reached the top levels in business becasue their time was taken up with pregnancy so much - and so we are "keyed" to see the woman-child pair as natural; it's the "About a Boy" thing where being a single father is a great way to meet chicks, because you live in a culturally female world of childrearing.

However, I seem to recall that the reason most children of divorce end up with their mothers is that their fathers do not want them. In the UK, IIRC, in cases where fathers challenge for custody, they get it more often than not. Does that suggest that fathers are actually better at being both father and mother than mothers, but have more important things to do as a rule?
 
 
eye landed
05:13 / 28.05.03
It must be stressed that relevant differences between men and women will be due to socialization, and not sex. If women are better parents it is because they are trained to be parents more than men are, not because vaginas are better parents than penises (although breastfeeding complicates this position).

If men have limitations as parents, it is probably in their self-absorption. I think a man is more likely to wonder how their child reflects on them rather than how they influence the child. I think a woman, because "parent" is a culturally more acceptable role for her, is more likely to make sacrifices to be a good parent. A man, who must struggle with his feelings towards doing a "woman's job," might not give the child his full attention. I think more stay-at-home dads will try to work on their novel or take night classes or do business online. Men are conditioned to be financially or artistically or intellectually productive, while women are encouraged to ignore their own selves as a material force and concentrate on raising future material actors.

I think each gender has its strengths and weaknesses, and both single-parent situations and two-parents situations have pros and cons. It's mostly a matter of how the individual child reacts to the situation. Perhaps more important than who raises the child is what kinds of transitions the child needs to live through. A child who is raised by two parents for a while, then by one only, then shuttles back and forth between them every week, then goes and lives with an aunt, and so on, is more likely, in my opinion, to develop family issues than a child raised in any stable environment. Of course, a certain amount of stress is essential in order to develop defense mechanisms, but usually attempting to minimize the child's stresses is the best approach (consider the alternative: deliberately subjecting the child to stress).

In the UK, IIRC, in cases where fathers challenge for custody, they get it more often than not.

This statement is not debatable for a few reasons. Do you, in fact, recall correctly? Do fathers only challenge when they know they can win? Do fathers have more financial resources to win the court battle?
 
 
No star here laces
07:45 / 28.05.03
Substatique, I refer you to this excellent book which shows that the differences between the genders cannot be so easily dismissed as being due to socialization. I refer anyone who wishes to make the obvious objection to either the statistical literacy thread, the chapter of the book on statistics or a good a-level maths textbook....
 
 
The Natural Way
08:19 / 28.05.03
For what it's worth: when I was a kid I really enjoyed being cuddled by men. And this had everything to do with not having a Dad at home. I think something's missing if a child doesn't experience physical love from both sexes, but whether or not this means the huggerwuggers have to be *parents* is another issue entirely.
 
 
gingerbop
21:37 / 28.05.03
I could be so far off the mark here, only ever having had both parents around (kinda). But heres what i reakon:
Kids learn about forming emotionally intimate relationships, primarily, with their parents. So if one parent is missing, they might not learn emotional intimacy with that gender because of it.

I say this because, until i was about 12, my dad would probably see me for about 10 minutes per day, and my only family relationships with males were that of my brothers. But even now that dad is around a lot, coz hes stopped working, i havent really formed any kind of relationship with him,and doubt i ever will. Perhaps its because of that, i dont really know, that iv never been emotionally intimate with any guy, except for a gay friend, so thats kinda a different thang.

This whole thang leads onto the topic of gay couples adopting, i spose. Perhaps that too leaves the child void of something. But then it totally invadidates single people being allowed to adopt, if that were the only argument against gay adoption.
 
 
eye landed
06:45 / 29.05.03
Laces, I haven't read the book, but I'll make two points:

1) so-called "male hormones" are present in the female body, and vice versa, and
2) socialization and genetics are linked because genetics gives us a predisposition to socialize certain traits, and because socialization influences who gets to reproduce with other strong genes. I guess you can call this evolution...but if I say more, I might hijack the thread.

I guess what I mean is that we can't get rid of gender socialization by, say, raising a boy as a girl.

~

I think the more (mature and capable) people who are involved in raising a child, the better than child will be able to adapt to various social situations. The difference between men and women is quite large, as variations between people go, so two parents of different genders can cover a lot of ground. If gay couples are concerned that their child might not get enough varied stimulation, they should make sure their child is exposed to lots of other people of both genders, from grandparents to babysitters to friends. The risk with this approach is that a greater number of people means a greater chance that one of them will be detrimental (for example, abusive in some way).
 
  
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