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Emotions

 
 
The Great Jor of Babylon
22:16 / 21.05.03
Are emotions that bad? I'm taking political "science" class that seems to have philosophy mixed in it for added spice... anyway, the professor is quick to dismiss some arguments as "emotive." What role should emotion play in making choices? Does it depend? For example with the whole Iraq war he refused to "think of the children." I saw a Vietnam war documentary ("Hearts and Minds") and while watching it I became disgusted with this professor and the way he thinks. Yet, when I'm in his class I can't help but see him in another light. Has anyone read A.J. Ayer's "Language, Truth and Logic" ?
 
 
—| x |—
22:49 / 21.05.03
I dunno'. This is probably too brief a response, but it seems to me that, while some arguments are more blatantly—or obviously—founded on emotive reasons than others, outside of mathematical arguments, or arguments in a pure logic, the moment we begin making assertions about our experience, our emotions are in some degree or another involved.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:48 / 21.05.03
Academically this all depends on the discipline. Bringing an emotive element in to a logical argument detracts from the point. It has little place unless specifically applied. It sounds like you need to detach yourself and consider the motives of your lecturer. In making his own decisions he probably relies, to a certain extent, on emotion but within his discipline he needs to take a professional viewpoint.

Yes I have read Ayer. No I don't want to talk about it ever again.
 
 
SMS
23:58 / 21.05.03
In fact, when it comes to making decisions, emotions are fundamental. One might use reason to say what kinds of consequences an action or a policy might cause, but this cannot dictate which action or policy one should take.

President Kennedy could have made different decisions during the Cuban missile crisis, but he feared some of these could lead to a nuclear war. If we merely think of the consequences, but consider what we desire, fear, and so on, then we must be insane.

What I will assume, then, is that your professor is speaking carelessly. I do not suppose he would advocate dismissing emotions entirely, although he may disagree with me that emotions are fundamental. In some sense, it is absolutely right to dismiss arguments that might loosely be called emotive or emotional. These are arguments that rely on emotion at the expense of reason.

Let's say, for instance, I try to convince you that the death penalty ought to be used in extreme cases. If it had been your sister or your daughter that Ted Bundy had brutally raped, murdered and mutilated, you'd better bet that you'd want to see him hang.

Now, suppose that this is true. I know that enough people on Barbelith would think, "no, I would not want to see more violence," but that's not the point. Suppose you would. This argument appeals to your emotions, to your sense of vengeance. I know I have a sense of vengeance, but how does that imply that I ought to support the death penalty? I'm sure that we could even come up with contradictory principles based off of this kind of reasoning.
 
 
The Great Jor of Babylon
01:01 / 22.05.03
Rethinking all of this, I can see that, like el Zilcho says "some arguments are more blatantly—or obviously—founded on emotive reasons than others" and designed to appeal to emotions without much logic except a knee-jerk reaction. My prof (A. James Gregor) does have a nuanced view on emotions and values, I'm just not getting it across very well. He has a chapter on the normative where he actually defends it, unlike Ayer's rejection of it as "non-cognitive."
 
 
—| x |—
07:46 / 22.05.03
Bringing an emotive element in to a logical argument detracts from the point.

I disagree, and in fact, like I said before, I doubt there are many academic arguments that are outside of pure math and logic that are not peppered with some degree of emotion. I disagree because there is room for emotive provocation in an academic paper, but it is relative to the style and function of such elements as to whether or not they accentuate the argument or detract from it. You can’t sincerely tell me that you’ve never written a paper about something that you were interested in and cared about, but did not also include a sense of emotion in your paper, can you?

…within his discipline he needs to take a professional viewpoint.

While I am sympathetic to the idea of trying to remain as objective and removed from the subject of our discipline, and I get the drift of the attitude you are indicating by ‘professional viewpoint’; however, I still think this is only possible to an upper limit, and then there are still going to be traces of emotive elements in response, avenues of exploration, lectures, etc..

…‘some arguments are more blatantly—or obviously—founded on emotive reasons than others’ and designed to appeal to emotions without much logic except a knee-jerk reaction.

There are going to be (many?) examples of arguments laced with obvious emotion and/or appealing to emotion, and that these will be the type of arguments that typically get labeled as ‘rhetoric’. Certainly many of these will be designed to inspire, or be inspired by, as you say, “a knee jerk reaction.” However, echoing what I’ve already said, albeit somewhat implicitly, there can be emotive elements in a well reasoned argument that are respectable, not based on any knee-jerk reaction, and actually beneficial to the argument! Or so it seems IMHO.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:11 / 22.05.03
[Ayer mistranslated a lot of work by the Vienna Circle. Logical Positivism in the English formulation is a nonsense - as rapidly became obvious - but it is one with considerable influence in English-language thought.]

The refusal to acknowledge emotive arguments is annoying and very much in the vein of English Language Positivism. To assail it, you can go via Horkheimer and Adorno's 'Dialectic of Enlightenment', but that's a little like using a bulldozer to carry your suitcases. There's a book out at the moment called 'Al Qaeda and what it means to be Modern' - John Gray - which concisely points out some of Ayer's failings.

Otherwise, you can look at John Dunne's 'Modern Revolutions', which depicts radical social change as the result of human agency. Ranged against Dunne is Theda Skocpol, whose 'States and Social Revolutions' offers a purely structural route through revolution. However, even in the structural construction, there's room for emotions as long as you represent them as mechanisms of the structure - links in the causal chain which drive individuals and hence mobs. You might look at Ted Gurr (I think), whose 'value dissynchronisation', in which the gap between what is perceived as 'what ought to be' and what is perceived as 'what is' creates a rejection which manifests as revolution.

However: emotion alone as a method of decisionmaking is lousy. The 'think of the children' argument about war plays for either side of the peace/war divide. The will to do good is not a sufficient reason to believe that one's policy is good. It may well have the opposite effect to what is desired - witness the Israeli efforts to expunge terror.

You may also want to look at Weber, who has a more interesting take on what is rational.

More detail needed about where your prof dismisses 'emotion' before I can answer fully.
 
 
gingerbop
16:38 / 22.05.03
I think Bush/Blair are trying to play on our emotions, with "hearts and minds" type stuff, but dont want to get bogged down with all that slushy stuff themselves. Think they'd rather review the oil revenue figures.

Gotta be a mix tho- lets face it, everyone makes some pretty pathetic decisions based on emotion alone. So go for inbetween your "hearts and minds" and make decisions with your throat.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
18:36 / 22.05.03
It's a matter of proportion. "Think of the children" is probably too much of an appeal to emotion; but a small amount of emotion within a well-constructed logical argument adds impact. To put it another way, the audience/reader of a persuasive piece is thinking, "And I should care because...?" Emotional impact, if logically linked, can help answer that.

(Anyone care to break down logos/ethos/pathos/and-sometimes-mythos? My smattering from debate isn't enough to explain the uses.)
 
 
jeff
19:52 / 22.05.03
I agree that arguments laced with an excess of emotion tend to be lousy ones. I also think that arguments outside certain areas (mathematics and the like) are nigh impossible to keep from some sort of contamination by our humanity. However, I also believe that regulated emotion in an argument can make it clearer, and from a purely pragmatic POV, can help you "win" the debate.
In the former case, if you perceive the argument and the emotion, you can see where they are coming from, and why they are arguing the point. The emotional content acts as a kind of bibliography to their argument. In the latter, I don't have to believe what I'm saying, but I'm damned if "they" don't.
 
 
—| x |—
21:00 / 22.05.03
The refusal to acknowledge emotive arguments is annoying…

No doubt! Besides, it seems to me that since people are generally tied to their interests and positions by some sort of evaluative criteria (implicit or explicit) than these same standards of evaluation are going to decide, with respect to the particular individual, which arguments, though bearing emotive elements, are going to be acknowledged, and which are going to be dismissed.

…emotion alone as a method of decision making is lousy.

Agreed. Like gingerbop points towards, it is likely that in most cases it is preferable if there is “dialogue” between our emotive motivations and our intellectual motivations in our process of decision making. As I said somewhere else, “the mind and the heart are each one and others temple and tempters”: it is working towards a balanced interaction between them, it seems to me, that we become more empowered as human beings. Thus, our views and positions are likely to be most powerful if they are related to others with this balance in mind. Personally, I am distrustful of a writer who would conceal his or her emotive elements: better to be honest and sincere than to merely portray a false objectivity.

…but a small amount of emotion within a well-constructed logical argument adds impact.

Exactly. And again, it seems better to include emotive elements not only for, as you say, reasons to actually care about what is being said, i.e., making more than merely an intellectual impact, but also for reasons of honesty and sincerity.

However, I also believe that regulated emotion in an argument can make it clearer, and from a purely pragmatic POV, can help you "win" the debate.

Yes. And while I hold reservations about the function of emotive elements working towards “winning” a debate, it is more or less clear to me the import of your statement. It seems to me that well articulated and “factual” points are certainly complemented by reasonable and well adjusted emotive elements. Of course, ‘reasonable’ and ‘well adjusted’ are clearly evaluative terms, but I hope that the point is still apparent without need to resort to defining criteria that establishes what emotive elements will count towards being ‘reasonable’ and ‘well adjusted’.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:02 / 22.05.03
I agree that arguments laced with an excess of emotion tend to be lousy ones. I also think that arguments outside certain areas (mathematics and the like) are nigh impossible to keep from some sort of contamination by our humanity.

"Contamination" is an interesting choice of words, as indeed is "humanity". This seems to dichotomise emotion and reason as two separate entities coexisting within the human mind - in which case a term like "rational" or "reasonable" doens't really work - and having their own feelings about each position seems very homuncular; I tend to cleave to the idea that our emotions are a function of ratiocination, at least beyond a very primal level. So, for example, if somebody is about to hack my arm off with a machete (sorry, saw 28 Days Later last night) I can reasonably be said to feel fear. If I say "I am afraid of the consequences of a rise in inflation rates", I'm more using the emotion of fear as a metaphor to explain or elucidate my position. It's not really *emotion* in the same sense.

So, by the same token, an "emotive" argument in the sense of Kingsalamander's professor is presumably not one that is without reason, emotion without reason being little more than instinct and stimulus response, but one that relies on metaphors of emotion in palce of the processes through which the metaphorical bridge can be shown as strong.

SMatthewStolte's statement:

Let's say, for instance, I try to convince you that the death penalty ought to be used in extreme cases. If it had been your sister or your daughter that Ted Bundy had brutally raped, murdered and mutilated, you'd better bet that you'd want to see him hang.

Provides an interesting example of this, in that it assumes that emotion is a discrete entity that acts on. Now, as it happens I don't think that the situation above would change my views on capital punishment. I daresay that I would have an awful lot of anger. I might very well want to kill the fellow. I might equally want him to be dead, but I don't think that would necessarily change my views on capital punishment. Because emotion is not in itself necessarily convincing...
 
 
—| x |—
09:14 / 24.05.03
I would like to take a moment to establish something that I think we can all agree on—perhaps something that we can look at as a “foundation” for this discussion. From a phenomenological perspective, I think that we can all agree that, whether reason and emotion are dichotomized or not, there would be neither without experience. I find it very difficult to imagine what it would be like to reason about things if there weren’t any, and I do not see why I’d be emotional if there were nothing there to feel about or towards. So I do not think there is any dispute about premising this discussion on the assumption that there has to be at least experience for there to be reason or emotion.

From here, I think we can ask questions about the relationship between our rationality and our feelings. Is there a dichotomy of “…emotion and reason as two separate entities coexisting within the human mind”? Or does one “emerge”, “supervene”, or somehow lead or give rise to the other? We have at least experience, now where do we go from there?

Haus, you’ve said that you “…tend to cleave to the idea that our emotions are a function of ratiocination, at least beyond a very primal level.” So, if I have this correctly, you want to be saying that, while there might be some sort of muttering or murmuring of emotions at a “primal level” of our mind, emotions “are a function” of our reasoning—that they emerge from our, as you say, “ratiocination.” Now, in your fear example you’ve tried to show this by saying that, given the intellectual understanding of the circumstance, you could “reasonably be said to feel fear.” Thus, you wanted to say—again, if I understand you—that the comprehension of the dreadful circumstance gives rise to the fear.

First, by it being “reasonably said to feel fear,” it seems that this works as more of an evaluative claim than it does to establish that emotions are a function of our ratiocination. It seems to me that if I were to be reasonably feeling fear, then what is the case is that I am justified in feeling that particular instance of fear. In the fill in the blank details of your example, it is putting all the elements—phenomena—of the experience in an order that makes sense of the experience in such a way as to rationalize the feeling of fear. Thus, I don’t think your example makes the case that you want it to make, or else you are saying something about when it is reasonable to feel an emotion, and not that emotions are brought about by a reasonable interpretation of a given experience.

Second, even if we suppose, like I think you are saying, that there are cases where feelings emerge from a rational process that were not present in any elements of that process, then I think there are also cases where this is turned around. To again use fear as an example: continue to suppose that there is someone about to hack off someone else’s arm with a machete, but instead of it being our arm, it is the arm of our friend. Given the circumstance, you have the opportunity to warn hir, and this may, in turn, give hir a chance to avoid this terrible fate. So we shout “Watch out!” or “Duck” or something like that. It seems to me that it is not merely our ratiocination that makes us actually call out, but that there has to be an emotive reason which leads to the rational conclusion that, in the circumstances of this particular experience, it is reasonable to call out the warning to our friend. I mean, a merely intellectual understanding of the phenomena will rarely give rise to a warning, and if it does, than it is only a dispassionate warning: kinda’ like the warning on takeout cups of hot coffee or the changing of the terror alert from yellow to amber (or however that works). In this case, with our friend about to loose a limb, I think it is clear that fear and care—emotive elements—for our friend motivate our reason to shout. Thus, the rational process seems here a function of our emotions.

Therefore, there seems be support for both sides of the divide: we can see cases where emotions are a function of ratiocination and cases where ratiocination is a function of emotion. So, this gets us as far as establishing that the relationship between our reason and our emotion is, in some sense, symmetrical: both point to the other.

Third, it is, from many perspectives, difficult not to dichotomize intellect and feelings, reason and emotion. From most angles these two derivatives of our human experience are seen to be mutually exclusive. I mean, by ‘reason’ we are generally referring to that aspect of our mind that is sensible, rational, logical, calculating, etc. But by ‘emotion’ we are generally referring to that part of our mind that feels, intuits, and senses, the part of us that can provoke us to act irrationally, illogically, or without a reasonable motivation.

For instance, once, at a punk-rock show—maybe it was the Jesus Lizard—I watched my friend Jordan punch this acquaintance of ours, Dave, in the face. There wasn’t any perceivable provocation: they weren’t arguing, there wasn’t any conflict between them—Jordan suddenly, and I would say irrationally, hit Dave, and hard too. Now, perhaps to an outside observer, this could be said to be reasonably motivated: there’s lots of beer, it’s loud, it’s hot and smoky, there’s lots of energy and people, and it’s the fuckin’ Jesus Lizard; thus, perhaps it was reasonable that Jordan punched Dave in the face. Hmm…somewhat plausible, I suppose; however, while I can’t exactly speak for Jordan, it seems to me that from his perspective (putting myself in his shoes as best I can) I was sitting there at the table in this environment when within my mind I felt that I had to punch Dave in the face, and, instead of ignoring this irrational feeling, I simply go ahead and sock it to him.

So what I am saying is that there does seem to be a rational motivation for seeing our reason and our emotion as distinct and exclusive of one and other. However, I also think that they are interdependently co-arising, but I’ll save that for another time.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:25 / 24.05.03
On Zilcho's arm hacking example - well, no. Becasue you are positing simultaneously that emotion and reason are monads, and that they are interchangeable - emotion informs reason. That doesn't work even as a homuncular argument.

Take: To again use fear as an example: continue to suppose that there is someone about to hack off someone else’s arm with a machete, but instead of it being our arm, it is the arm of our friend. Given the circumstance, you have the opportunity to warn hir, and this may, in turn, give hir a chance to avoid this terrible fate. So we shout “Watch out!” or “Duck” or something like that. It seems to me that it is not merely our ratiocination that makes us actually call out, but that there has to be an emotive reason which leads to the rational conclusion that, in the circumstances of this particular experience, it is reasonable to call out the warning to our friend. I mean, a merely intellectual understanding of the phenomena will rarely give rise to a warning, and if it does, than it is only a dispassionate warning: kinda’ like the warning on takeout cups of hot coffee or the changing of the terror alert from yellow to amber (or however that works). In this case, with our friend about to loose a limb, I think it is clear that fear and care—emotive elements—for our friend motivate our reason to shout. Thus, the rational process seems here a function of our emotions.

Pure fearhere would presumably make one run away, pure care make one rush to the side of one's friend and embrace them. so what are we feeling/thinking here? "I fear for my friend, because the descending balde of the machete will sever his arm2 - we're already into understandings of cause, effect, physics and biology. "I do not want the maxchete blade to strike my friend" could be described as an emotion - "I react with negative emotion to the idea of the blade striking my friend" - or as a rational desire for the friend's arm to stay on. But what makes it rational? The basic rationalism of arms staying on? The understanding of cause and effect in this situation?

So, "ratiocination" was probably a deceptive term, although its syllogistic overtones might have come in handy. Better perhaps to say that "reason" and "emotion" seem to me to be indistinguishable, or perhaps more correctly inseparable, qualities of the single process "thought". It's possible that there is a level of emotional response that is pure stimulus response - the mouse running from the loud noise, say - but to antithesise the two into warring or allied factions in the human mind seems like a metaphor rather than an analysis....
 
 
—| x |—
14:10 / 24.05.03
Pure fear here…, pure care…

Perhaps, but I recall mentioning neither pure fear nor pure care; rather I mentioned that it’d likely be fear and care for our friend that gave the impetus to call out a warning. Surely, I agree that there is much that is to be understood via rational means about the circumstance, as you note, “cause, effect, physics and biology,” to name a few; however, it seems to me that we could understand every factual bit of data about the situation, yet still not find motive to give a warning without an emotive element. It is the emotional attachment to our friend (and likely arms as well!) that gives reason to shout the warning. In a sense, it is the emotion which makes it reasonable to call out.

Regardless, I think that we are playing on the same field when you say “[b]etter perhaps to say that ‘reason’ and ‘emotion’ seem...to be indistinguishable, or perhaps more correctly inseparable, qualities of the single process ‘thought’.” This is likely close to or part of how I would sketch out their interdependent co-arising. However, to get back to the foundation, I would be more inclined to say that emotion and reason are inseparable qualities of human experiencing—thought also seems to be a part of our experience. And I do think that we could, in a sense, see “emotion informing reason” in some ways and “reason informing emotion” in other ways, and still maintain the idea that they are qualities of a single process. Again, an emphasis is placed on their interdependency.

Also, I would tend to agree that “to antithesise the two into warring or allied factions in the human mind seems like a metaphor rather than an analysis,” but understanding them in terms of a dichotomized unity does not require metaphors of allies or enemies. Like I’ve said in several other places, and about other similar pairings, to see these pairings as duality is reasonable and can give us some insight, but if the unity of the pairing becomes lost in a “real” separation, then, like you say, we’ll fall into the error of antithesis.

[The] syllogistic overtones [of ‘ratiocination’] might have come in handy.

How so? I mean, I’m not picking up what you’re putting down here, and,

a homuncular argument

please explain what this is, thank you.
 
 
alas
14:57 / 24.05.03
I think some of the best decisions I've ever made were ones that were deeply intuitive. Some of the worst decisions I've ever made ignored intuitive signals. Check out: http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/g_l/lorde/erotic.htm.

We have 5 senses that take in more sense data than we can possibly interpret with our "rational" minds. Our experience shapes what our conscious mind is going to notice.

So I tend to view the move of labeling someone else's argument as emotive (and often the ones most easily so labeled are women or other less powerful persons') is a power play. A rhetorical move designed to give the illusion that one's own argument is not so "tainted."

alas.
 
  
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