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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

The Best Of Buffy Thread

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The Timaximus, The!

23:56 / 11.10.05

Cool, thanks. Season two it is, then.

09:41 / 05.03.07

Just watching Buffy for the first time.

You fans are lame for not proselytizing to me earlier. No one bloody tells me about Buffy and I have like 10 people who tell me to watch Firefly.

I'm about 12 episodes in to Season 5 of Buffy and 10(ish) in to Season 2 of Angel. I tried the watch one and then the other but that didn't work so well. Right now I watch a few of one and then a few of the other.

Buffy Season 1 was rocky. There was a pretty big growing curve for the cast in terms of acting.

Season 2 and 3 were awesome.

Buffy Season 4 had some great moments but it didn't blow me away quite as much as Seasons 2 and 3.

Season 5 is really rocky. Quality wise, its all over the place. Sometimes I want to give up and sometimes I can't stop watching. Michelle Trachtenberg is blowing away most of the cast (except James Marsden who shows time and again that he's on another level) acting wise at like 13 or 14, which shows just how weak the acting is, especially compared to Angel.

Angel Season 1 started off terrible. The last couple Doyle episodes it turned around and then it took off when Wesley arrived.

Angel Season 2 is fairly good so far but it lacks the serialized "must watch" factor that Buffy has, even with the Darla subplot.

The acting on Angel is so much better that its not even funny.

10:51 / 05.03.07

Season 5 is really rocky.

Wait until you see the train-wreck that is Season 6. Season 5 shines by comparisson. I go all Highlander after 5 (i.e. That's where it ends. Highlander 2? What Highlander 2?).

I'm still big with the Buffy love but I don't really push it anymore because I kind of assumed most people had been exposed to it by now. In the UK both Buffy and Angel are on endless repeat cycles on the satellite/digital networks.

Angel is, for my money, slightly better than Buffy in overall quality (but, to be fair, it didn't get as many seasons). Stick with Seasons 3 and 4 (they can get a little too focused on the angsty-relationship stuff) for the sheer unmittigated coolness of Season 5.

12:07 / 05.03.07

Michelle Trachtenberg is blowing away most of the cast (except James Marsden

Yeah, that pretty much continues to be the case. Charisma Carpenter does the same in Angel.

13:35 / 05.03.07

I'd say Alexis Denisof's acting also rocks on at least 52 different levels.

13:42 / 05.03.07

I'd say Alexis Denisof's acting also rocks on at least 52 different levels.

Extra double agree!

13:48 / 05.03.07

Oh and we're recovering from Season 4 of Angel before finishing up with Season 5.
While being better than the Buffy Season 6 it still had enough to slog through to tire us out.

Though as a Spike addict Season 6 of Buffy does provide many shameful delights.

I would say Buffy had more stand out single episodes like Hush and OMWF than Angel has. (only still on Season 4 of A)

14:14 / 05.03.07

Well, I would say that Angel Season 5 is Angel's best season. You've got vampires, demons, humour, angst, murderous puppets, Amy Acker and Spike. What the HELL ELSE DO YOU NEED?

I think that Angel S-5 just had so many outstanding and memorable episodes. Especialy 'Hole in the world', 'Smile Time', and 'The Girl In Question'. Just superb TV.

And the ending...oh the ending....'Not Fade Away' was a great episode, and I know that it gets quite a bit of haters on it because of the ending, but personally, I freakin' loved it. It ends on a 'we neva gonna win' note, but....in my dreams......the angel series and characters.........LIVE ON.

But I refuse to write fan-fic because it blows.

Great Show.

18:03 / 05.03.07

Buffy season six is not only the best season of that series, I'd argue it's...the best season of any show ever! Here's a pre-existing thread discussing the issue. For me, the show breaks down into season 1/2/3, season 4, season 5/6 and season 7, with each break marking a shift in purpose. I prefer the character focused darkness of 5 and 6, but all of the eras have their own merits.

18:04 / 05.03.07

Oh, and Angel season five is easily the best season of that show. I really liked season three, but four sort of died out towards the end. Five was so tight, with basically every episode after 'Smile Time' a classic. I think the show's finale was the perfect thematic wrap up to Angel's arc, though I will admit that I'd love to see just a bit more of Illyria.

Regrettable Juvenilia

00:52 / 06.03.07

Christ on a rack.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

01:41 / 06.03.07

The thing I don't understand is that depression is characterised by a lack of emotion and a flattened feeling that nothing will ever change. So I still don't understand why it was thought a good idea to represent this in the last two seasons of Buffy and Angel. I don't understand people who enjoyed the last two seasons of Buffy or the penultimate season of Angel.

06:29 / 06.03.07

First off, season six and season seven are radically different, and it always bothers me to see them grouped together. One is the most character-intensive, insular season the show has ever produced, with completley human, flawed heroes and villains. Season seven has a big scope, and the most evil villain possible. I think season six is the best of the series, but consider season seven inferior to all others except the first.

As for depicting depression, all I can say is it worked for me. Buffy was never more interesting than when she was bored with her world, and driven to the darkness. Plus, for me, the strength of the show was in the supporting cast, and by season six, it had become an ensemble drama, with everyone getting roughly equal time. That was great, and it really bothered me to see the others get short shrift in season seven.

11:17 / 06.03.07

Christ on a rack.

Wasn't that supposed to be the Big Bad for a possible Season 8 of Buffy?

11:45 / 06.03.07

Flyboy- you are Spike and I claim my five pounds.

12:01 / 06.03.07

Buffy was never more interesting than when she was bored with her world, and driven to the darkness.

Trouble was I was bored with her world and driven to darkness too.

(And by darkness I mean Stargate)

Nolan, I'd be interested to hear what your views are on the seasons you haven't seen yet (once you've watched them obviously).

13:29 / 06.03.07

I actually formed the theory with season six that Whedon had been dumped by his girlfriend, because it was the only thing that would explain it. Plus, season six has 'hey kids - magic = drugs!' which, as a magician, was bound to irritate me.

Actually, magic got too much symbolic freight in Buffy, having to do time both as a metaphor for drug addiction and for homosexuality. At least Singer only ever made the X-men a metaphor for being gay...he didn't have a character who had to mutate all the time and keep mutating into ever more outlandish forms to get a bigger and better buzz...(actually that last sounds like quite a cool idea for a character, now I think on it...)

Best line, for me, was Giles in the season after he's been sacked from the Watchers and is drinking all the time, where Xander compares him to Alfred the butler:

'Ah, that's where you're wrong. Alfred, at least, HAS A JOB!'

13:33 / 06.03.07

To be honest I like to think of the 6th Season as a huge, elaborate shaggy dog story, the punchline of which is here...

13:47 / 06.03.07

Great. Now all I want to do today is cruise around YouTube watching bits of Buffy.
Though the musical tribute to Buffy and Spike's undying passion I found off of the above link did remind me of three things:

1. I was just so very glad Riley was gone.

2. The B/S relationship did provided a lot of angsty sulky shirtless Spike.

3. Avoid fan tribute blurbs as they leave one feeling as if your underware has been mixed up with a stranger's.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

13:59 / 06.03.07

I'm sorry Patrick but season six is just arse on any number of levels. It pretty much destroys any notion of Buffy as a hero and not in an interesting deconstruction way but more in a kind of "Waaaah! Why ith everyone being nathty to me? I'm the Thlayer!" pre-school way. It starts talking down to it's audience. The whole arc of Buffy and Angelus from late season two deals with emotions in a much more intelligent way than any part of season six. And when they suddenly decide, after six years, that Magicks = OMG! DRUGS!!1! it all spins horribly out of control.

06:47 / 07.03.07

2. The B/S relationship did provided a lot of angsty sulky shirtless Spike.

But not nearly enough sulky shirtless Buffy.

I always found it quite amusing that Spike comes into the show taking the piss out of vampires who do that whole "Ann Rice" routine, and ends up becoming one (at least until he went over to Angel where he was a bit more fun, although still fairly 2-D).

Shiny: Well Over Thirty

13:14 / 07.03.07

From Season 3 onwards I think Alexis Densof really turned Angel into his show. The others were mostly entertaining, but for me the show was really all about Wesley.

13:42 / 07.03.07

From Season 3 onwards I think Alexis Densof really turned Angel into his show. The others were mostly entertaining, but for me the show was really all about Wesley.

Having only watched up to S4 of Angel I hafta say Wesley's character arc kicks serious ass. I'm invested in him as the bumbling fool ala Zander but then the gritter plummeting hell he goes through is quite fabulous. Watching Wesley and Willow discussing their personal journeys to the dark side one would have no idea that the actors playing them are romanticly involved. I love that.

The spouse pointed out the Wesley/Lila romance is a more successful portrayal of sleeping with the enemy than the Buffy/Spike one. The nasty dialogue between W/L during their first forays is far more brutal which contrasts the anguish Wesley goes through after her death making it far more profound.

One of the bonuses of watching it on DVD is to see the outtakes such as the ballet episode where we get to see Wesley's fantasy performance with Fred. So kick ass.

13:51 / 07.03.07

Season 6 and 7 are definitely weaker seasons than what came before (3 and 5 being my personal favourites), but they do have episodes and moments that are sheer class and are worth enduring the crap for.

Some of this could get spoiler-ish:

The main reason to watch season 6 are the performances of Tom Lenk and the guy who plays Warren (whose name escapes me at the moment). They're wonderfully humorous, geeky and at times in season 6, downright chilling. Season 6 Warren, the ostensibly human Warren, could at times make for genuinely unsettling viewing, such as in "Dead Things", as opposed to the way he was utilised in season 7.

Season 6 is worth the doldrums and mundane nature of Buffy/Spike, for the excellent "Once More, with feeling," "Tabula Rasa". Tabula Rasa is such a strong episode, that it was later revisited in season 4 of Angel with "Spin the Bottle," which was even funnier than its parent episode. "Doublemeat Palace," is hard to fault, although it is a pretty good representation of the forced banality and darkness that a lot of fans feel was hoisted upon the season.

Season 7 is pretty dire in places, but picks up in quality when Andrew joins the scoobies. It has some episodes which are all time classics too, but the arc plot goes nowhere fast and characterisation is all over the place at times. "Selfless," is easily the funniest episode of the past three seasons, and "Storyteller," is the stand-out episode of the last part of the season. Season 7 was ruined by an abysmal use of Anya, boring Buffy/Spike stuff, horrible new cast members like Principal Wood and Kennedy and a distinctly unlikeable Willow. And that finalé. Gah!

19:05 / 07.03.07

As this is a no-hate thread I will frame this in a positive manner.

If we need a teenager flouncing about now that everyone else has grown up, er at least physically, I'll take Connor any day over Dawn.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

20:32 / 07.03.07

The lack of chemistry between Willow and Kennedy was especially noteworthy.

07:33 / 08.03.07

I have to say that, whilst I found it an enjoyable episode when I first saw it, I am surprised that Once More With Feeling gets so much respect when it's actually the least original of the "gimmick" episodes (there had been a musical episode in Xena the year before). Ones like Hush and (with Angel) Smile Time were far better in terms of entertainment value and originality.

Season 6 did have a few moments that I enjoyed. I would have preferred to see most of it being based around the Scoobies only just managing to hold the line against the monsters (with SMG playing the Buffybot for most of the season), Willow losing control of her magic not by it being addictive (surely one of the most heavy-handed uses of metaphor in television) but simply because she's having to channel more and more potent dark spells to stop the forces of evil winning. Spike recieves a vicious head wound and realises the chip's no longer working, he sticks with the Scoobies but is sneaking out and chewing on the local populace (because he is a soul-less vampire after all, the writers always tried to make an exception for Spike until they finally just gave up and chucked a soul at him).

They could have resurrected Buffy towards the end of the season and done a much more effective storyline without the unrealistic (within the context of the show) job-seeking nonsense.

Hindsight is a marvellous thing isn't it?

Our Lady Has Left the Building

09:05 / 08.03.07

I think OMWF is great but the problem is that it doesn't advance any of the storylines in the series at all. Buffy is still depressed and goes into an ill-advised relationship with Spike in which non-consensual behaviour is fine when it's instigated by the woman, Dawn is still overlooked, Anya and Xander still don't discuss the fact they don't really want to get married yet, Willow gets her last chance to not use magic in the next episode with Tara and blows it, Giles is still thinking it's time to move on... the other gimmick episodes actually move the storylines of the time on.

18:03 / 08.03.07

Buffy is better comedy than drama. Andrew versus Riley anyone?

Fucking love Andrew, his visit in Angel was top banana, and he consistently got the best lines and delivered them perfectly.

Andrew: You think your Li'l Witch buddy's gonna stop with us? You saw her! She's a truck driving Magic Mamma. We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers, and not one of you bunch has the midichlorians to stop her!
Xander: You've never had even a tiny bit of sex, have you?

18:41 / 08.03.07

Evil, each to their own, but to I don't think OMWF rocked my tits off when it aired because of its originality, rather it was one of the telly moments of my life because it was a musical, and musicals are all about the emotion.

I'm not a huge fan of the genre, but when it works- and for me, and every Buffy fan I knew - it really works.

19:22 / 08.03.07

Plus, those songs just kick ass. I did my Music leaving certificate examination project on OMWF and got an A for it. Praise be to Buffy!

00:57 / 09.03.07

I think OMWF is great but the problem is that it doesn't advance any of the storylines in the series at all.

I'd completely disagree. For one, The Body and Restless do very little to advance the overall arcs. And all Hush does is reveal Buffy and Riley's secret identities to each other. OMWF reveals a lot of character information, I can't remember exactly when we know what, but I don't think we were aware of how deep Xander and Anya's fears were. It also has Buffy attempting to kill herself before being saved by Spike, settiing up their relationship over the rest of the season.

But, most of the work is in set up for future storylines, so I'd agree it's not a huge plot advancer. But, in the show, revealing new character stuff is frequently more important than advancing the plot, so it worked for me. Plus, as others have said, the music's great, and it's a whole lot of angsty, dark fun. It's either my favorite or second favorite episode of the whole run, depending on mood, swapping with Restless.

08:44 / 09.03.07

The Body and Restless do very little to advance the overall arcs.

You might have a point with The Body, although I'd argue that this particular episode isn't about advancing the arcs than it is dealing with death in a show where the body count is high and frequent, and the main characters defy it on a regular basis.

Restless on the other hand is the final episode, and is in a sense where the arcs for that season end, and where everyone deals with (or at least confronts) the problems that have been facing them over the season. For my money it has one of the best moments in the show, Xander and Buffy's exchange in the sandpit.

As Boboss says, each to their own. I didn't think the music in OMWF was that great (but then I did have to deal with one of my techs playing the CD over and over and over again so that might be biasing me somewhat).

12:26 / 09.03.07

I don't know if it's that great now but then it was bloody brilliant.

My intention in my last post wasn't to persuade you that OMWF is best best best, I was just attempting to explain the appeal: that musicals - because they cheat and use music - can pack a huge emotional punch in a way that, say, silent episodes are unlikely to.

12:39 / 09.03.07

My intention in my last post wasn't to persuade you that OMWF is best best best

Yeah, I know dude. No worries.

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