BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


The Union Jack, flowing gently in the breeze.

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
Sax
11:19 / 19.05.03
Quick gut reaction - don't think about this too long. One sentence, or a word even:

What does the Union Jack mean to you?

I don't want any farting on about it being the Union Flag until it's flown from a ship, either. And this is also (especially) a question for non-Brits.

And yes, it is a cheap way of researching a subject I hope to make money out of. You wouldn't deprive me of that, would you?
 
 
Ganesh
11:37 / 19.05.03
Okay, I'm a Brit - but a Scot, so I do probably have some sense of thinking of the Union Jack, at least partly, as a 'foreign flag'. I remember being taught about it in Primary School, being told how the English, Irish and Scottish flags combined (and wondering why the much more interesting dragon on the Welsh flag wasn't included), and how to draw it with the asymmetric proportions of the red/white diagonals.

As a child, then, I associated it with public holidays, especially the relative excitement (if you grew up in Aberdeen) of the Royal Family visiting. I can just about remember the Silver Jubilee year, and all the crappy little plastic Union Jacks (and, at the age of seven, I didn't even register punk).

Later, as a teenager, I remember it becoming associated with an excess of patriotism, nationalism, racism... and Morrissey, in a sparkly shirt, draping himself in the Union Jack onstage at Finsbury Park, and being booed off by Madness's audience.

Then the cover of 'Luther Arkwright'.

Then the gradual 'cooling' of the racist overtones. Geri Halliwell in a Union Jack tea-towel, and suddenly it seemed to be everywhere. FCUK co-opting it in various hues, and me buying a pair of glittery Union Jack cufflinks (which, in retrospect, are so tacky I almost never wear them).

So... what does the Union Jack mean to me? Sunny childhood days off school, BNP skinheads, Morrissey's dodgiest hour, Luther Arkwright, Geri Halliwell, FCUK, cufflinks.
 
 
Sax
11:39 / 19.05.03
Thank you, perfect. More please.
 
 
sleazenation
11:43 / 19.05.03
cub scouts, baden powell and all that bollocks where i was the taught that hoisting it the wrong way up was a sign of distress... if only anyone else notices. - Outside of the I think of Luther Arkwright...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:44 / 19.05.03
Thoughts:

It doesn't float, it mostly just sits there, damply.

The colours are crappy. We had an empire and we chose that?

Badge of a redundant aristocracy.

I went to a (music producer's) fancy dress party in a Union Jack punk outfit and got asked if I was National Front.

I've never touched an actual flag.

I don't know what it's meant to inspire in me, but it doesn't - but I think that may be about flags in general.
 
 
Fist Fun
11:46 / 19.05.03
One word would be oppressive.

It was weird being in America and seeing the stars and stripes everywhere. I can't remember being anywhere without having a flag somewhere within eyesight.

I think flags are horrible in general. A kind of forced belonging. The faded imperialism of the Union Jack.
 
 
Ganesh
12:01 / 19.05.03
Oh yeah, Sleaze, the (cub) scout thing of folding the flag, saluting it, and all that shit. It's funny: I did all that, but it didn't seem to imbue the flag itself with any sort of meaning; it just seemed an old-fashioned, slightly puzzling 'task' that was nonetheless pleasant enough in a social kind of way - like learning about knots I'd never use, the correct way to fasten a woggle, etc., etc.

Maybe it's a factor of having grown up in Scotland - where the saltire is generally the nationalist's flag of choice - but I think of the Union Jack in tends of rather weak situational associations rather than any particular emotional charge of 'oppression' or the like. Probably the strongest feeling is a vague sense of 'jolly holiday'.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
12:12 / 19.05.03
As an American, I remember first seeing the Union Jack on the sleeveless t-shirts of hard rock band members of the Def Leppard vintage. Dude, I really, really wanted one of those when I was 11.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:18 / 19.05.03
Faded and tattered flags hanging up in churches as memorials to regiments from various nineteenth-century wars.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:40 / 19.05.03
It's a piece of cloth that's waved at International sporting events and the last Night of the Prom. I have no emotional contact with it at all, so anyone who wants to burn it or piss on it is fine by me. And it signifies racism for me too. Euroscepticism.
 
 
Quantum
12:52 / 19.05.03
Don't need no country/don't fly no flag/cut no slack for the union jack/stars and stripes'll give you jet lag yeah Alabama 3

Reminds me of England fans *shudder*

another song quote "They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings" Bob Dylan
 
 
Sax
13:00 / 19.05.03
I have no emotional contact with it at all, so anyone who wants to burn it or piss on it is fine by me. And it signifies racism for me too. Euroscepticism.

Surely you have some "emotional contact" with something that "signifies racism"?
 
 
that
13:03 / 19.05.03
I think ze meant no positive emotional connection, no ties to it.

It just makes me think 'yikes' - racism all the way. With a bit of sporting events and Geri Halliwell thrown in for good measure.
 
 
rizla mission
14:14 / 19.05.03
in brief:

nationalism, football, laddism*

Pretty much all my worst enemies actually I suppose.

*is that word still in use? (t seems like I haven't said it for years) if not, why not?
 
 
w1rebaby
14:39 / 19.05.03
Britpop, Austen Powers, "Cool Britannia" and Ginger. If I saw someone nowadays with a Union Jack t-shirt on I'd assume they were just a twat, rather than an NF twat. Does that mean it's been reclaimed?

(that's "saw someone back in the UK", not here, that would be a bit unusual)
 
 
Outlaw
15:07 / 19.05.03
As an American, I see the Union Jack as yet another flag in a feild of flags that humans put too much emotion into. I never understood the problem with burning flags, tramping on them, useing them for blankets and having sex on them.

Flags are what nationalists wave when they want to blind a society while they do some sort of evil.

Outlaw
 
 
Mourne Kransky
15:11 / 19.05.03
Associations all negative, and similarly assume very right wing affiliations when I see St George's flag too. The saltire on the other hand I feel warmer and cuddlier about, particularly if it were still in its original pink.

All of which is paradoxical since I have never had any time for Scottish Nationalist politics and was always a very anglophile Scot, to the point where I moved hither, to the English capital, at a time in my life when every sensible person is getting stuck in a rut.

The Union Jack is not an attractive thing either. Apart from the Land of Hope and Glory associations, the colours are an unhappy combination and the design is very pointy and angled like a cheap chain store duvet cover.

Bad feng shui, all those pointy bits. All very masculine and oppressive. If they were to rotate it 45 degrees - change the X orientation to a plus sign configuration, that would improve it. And a little Welsh dragon in the top left hand corner would ruin the fearful symmetry to my satisfaction while being only sensible and fair.
 
 
grant
15:41 / 19.05.03
The Kids Are Alright.

That's what it means to me, first.

There's also a strange sort of combination of colonialism and "Where's Waldo?" from my childhood, finding the Union Jack in flags from other countries in the encyclopedia. Starting with South Africa, where my parents were from, but including scads of other countries.


----

Also, I was under the impression that there were *four* crosses on the Union Jack, one for St. David of Wales. Is that wrong then?
 
 
Ellis says:
17:47 / 19.05.03
I have no emotional connection to it.

Mentally it means World Cup, Football, football thugs.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
18:38 / 19.05.03
As a British multinational I remember it having a lot more meaning when I was kid. It was a very strong symbolism, and meant that things were happening in the name of the country. A march was only a procession if someone didn't have the UJ.

These days it's a lot less to me. It doesn't tell me my country is in effect, there have to be two flags for that now. I see it the way I see trademarks, like the Nike Swoosh or the Penguin penguin. It heralds the placement of a product/commodity, one of the largest exercises in branding that we will ever see. Not good, not bad, just a symbol to tell you of a de facto in situ.
 
 
Dances with Gophers
20:18 / 19.05.03
The 1977 Silver Jubilee street party (yes I'm that old!). Personally I quite like it from an asthetic point of view (even though it does I agree look like a duvet cover). I've always seen it as a symbol of the country of my birth and when I'm working abroad it becomes a symbol of home.
I'd like to see it embraced by all the races of this country, after all Britain is an Island every family must have travelled here from foreign parts at one time or other. For right or wrong (probably wrong) it's supposed to be a symbol of unity and it would be nice to (re)hijack it from the fascists (if only in the name of Eris ).

Having said that it is seen as a symbol of Britain's Imperial past, but then again it is a symbol of Britain and therefore carries both the good and bad associations of this country.

I think Grant is right about the fourth cross, but I've never been able to work that one out myself.

Having just hit the heights of jingoism I'll have to confess that it aint as cool as the Canadian flag.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
02:53 / 20.05.03
Football and racism. Not as good as the Jolly Roger.
 
 
sleazenation
09:04 / 20.05.03
hmmmm funny all this association between the union flag and the ENGLISH football team. - Whenever I see a flag at pubs showing football its usually Saint George's cross...
 
 
Punji Steak
09:51 / 20.05.03
Very true, I was intrigued by that as well. The only football ground where you are likely to see much of the Union Jack is Ibrox. You are more likely to see the Irish Tricolour at English football grounds, rather than the Union Jack, especially in the NW.
 
 
Spaniel
12:22 / 20.05.03
Er, Brit-Pop?

Cringe
 
 
Catjerome
13:51 / 20.05.03
Whenever I see it used over here in the States on clothing, I want to be irritating and question the people wearing it. I saw it on pre-teen girls' cropped shirts in Sears, for crying out loud. "Could I ask what that means to you, miss?"

It reminds me of Japanese pop culture shirts, borrowing English phrases and American pop art regardless of meaning.
 
 
gingerbop
15:29 / 20.05.03
re: japanese culture- not uncommon to be the reverse. I read a bit in a book of paper clippings which had an article about a woman who found nice fabric with japanese characters on it, so she made a coat out of it. Years later, she went to japan where everyone laughed at her. She didnt know why until she asked a waiter, who told her it said "condensed milk".

Anyways- yeah pretty much, just sporting events. But saying that, im going to represent GB for gymnastics soon, and when i got the bags with Great Britain on them, i went all gooey and proud.

So probably its something visual to attatch your emotions to, when you feel proud etc.

I used to feel more attatchment to the saltire- but then, what is there in scotland that im proud of.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
22:54 / 20.05.03
White teapots. Badly teastained ones.
 
 
tommac
23:50 / 20.05.03
I've got a terribly naive idea of the Union Jack that I can't shake off no matter how much negative stuff it has been associated with.

For me the Union Jack symbolises union, not division. I see it - perhaps incorrectly I admit - as the flag of a union of countries rather than a nationalistic token.

The cross of St. George means nothing to me as I consider myself a member of a union of countries of which the Union Jack is the most powerful symbol.

Racism, nationalism and jingoism are not what my flag represents to me. The clue is in the title - Union. (I almost typed 'Onion' there - which wouldn't have made any sense at all.)
 
 
Fist Fun
09:57 / 21.05.03
How can it not be a "nationalist token"? It represents the British nation. Ok, you have a few different football teams in there...but it is still a nation. Any union or inclusion it represents is as forced and arbitrary as the exclusion.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:47 / 21.05.03
...and I always imagine, at the centre, the squaddie picked by the Sun to be the face of "Our Boys"...

(someone who is absolutely, completely nothing to do with me, honest, guv, says "at least during wartime you know whose windows to brick")
 
 
Punji Steak
10:51 / 21.05.03
Tommac - you and Ian Paisley eh?
 
 
Cherry Bomb
10:54 / 21.05.03
I think of a pair of Doc Martens I always wanted...

The Union Jack has always been a fashion symbol to me. I'm not trying to sound pathetic I just never have thought of it in a nationalist sense being an American. In fact I have a shirt with a little glitter Union Jack on it that I like to wear in the States, particularly on the plane from the U.S. to the U.K. that I don't tend to wear here.
 
 
Ariadne
11:30 / 21.05.03
gingerbop: im going to represent GB for gymnastics soon

You are? When? Where? How exciting!
 
 
kan
12:18 / 21.05.03
"you are now entering loyalist east belfast"
not nice symbol
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply