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Not Guilty

  
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:11 / 15.05.03
I'm sure I can't be the only one who reconciled myself a while ago to having my politics (not to mention morality/ethics in general) attributed to guilt, motivationally speaking, by right-wing/reactionary assholes. Liberal guilt, white guilt, heterosexual male guilt, yada yada yada. It's never bothered me too much - for one thing, it's one of those stock, instinctive phrases that hardly counts even as rhetoric, so little has it been thought out... As Haus likes to say, it's not an argument, it's an emotional sound effect. I do believe in examining the motivations for one's own beliefs and convictions on a pretty regular basis, and I've done this - done it enough, I think, to know what I'm talking about when I say that guilt is not a serious motivating factor. Awareness of my own complicity/privilege? Sure. That's not the same thing. Apart from anything else, stop trying to fucking psychoanalyse me.

Like I said though, I've got used to hearing this from the expected quarters. What really gets my goat is hearing it from people supposedly "on the same side" as myself - and I know how fucked-up a term/concept that is, but can anyone think of a better one? More specific terms like "left-wing"/"liberal"/"progressive"/"radical" are even less helpful... The point is, I've heard this accusation both from so-called 'moderates' - eg, the claim that ideas such as open borders or the redistribution of wealth are crazy concepts motivated by guilt - and those who consider themselves more radical - eg, a recent claim that certain white men, myself presumably included, were only objecting to a transphobic article to mask our own privilege and sexism (no, I don't quite get the rationale there either).

Obviously, nobody likes having aspersions cast on their motives. But the main reason I object to the term being used here is still the same as when it comes from the right, only more so - it doesn't in itself seem to mean anything. If you think someone is being tactless, or condescending, or a poor ally, or denying someone a voice who needs it more, or even "going to far", then for God's sake say how and why. Don't just bandy about a term which is little more than a substitute for "political correctness gone maaaaad!"

So does anyone here think this kind of guilt *is* a bit factor in motivating liberal politics, and if so, who wants to make that case?
 
 
Bomb The Past
15:23 / 15.05.03
As an addition to that, perhaps we should also ask, does it dimish my actions in any way if I act out of guilt? For example, guilt might be a motivating cause in my support for feminism, I don't know. However, I'd rather be a feminist acting out of guilt than some retarded misogynist.
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:09 / 15.05.03
I don't experience this phenomenon myself. Perhaps I am insufficiently left wing, or perhaps my background is a touch complicated. I don't know. And to a very large extent I don't care. Fuck it. I am a firm believer in taking what someone says at face value. Sure, you appreciate the background, but ultimately one's position is convincing or not on its own merits. I'm a purist in that way.

FWIW, there is a stereotype of a barely liberal, middle class professional who expresses the odd bit of unconincing left wing dogma out of guilt. I've never met anyone like that, but somehow I recognise the stereotype. Its all part of the accusation of being a bleeding heart, isn't it? Left wingers are hopeless idealists who feel too much and are unable to deal with reality.

Sorry, not much help here. Barbelith is probably the wrong place to ask this question.
 
 
The Natural Way
17:21 / 15.05.03
I'm not sure it IS always an entirely meaningless thing to say. We've probably all experienced that guy who kisses female butt a little bit too much. You must know the sort of person I mean.... The really obsequious, crawly guy.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:27 / 15.05.03
We've probably all experienced that guy who kisses female butt a little bit too much.

Oh, yeah. Mr. I'm a feminist and you're not, lardedardar. Generally comes equipped with rich parents, a very very expensive education, no long-term female freinds and a girlf w/lowww self-esteem. Don't know how much of that guilt is for real.

I suppose that I have some Empire-related guilt, but I think that's more a consequence of my politics than a cause. If I hadn't had a deep, ingrained distrust of the hateyhatey predjudicial background noise I grew up with, I'd never have found out the stuff I feel bad for.

So I suppose that White Middle Class Liberal Whatever Guilt is a factor for me, but it's more like the cherry on the cake than the sugar, flour and eggs of my political sponge.
 
 
Salamander
19:27 / 15.05.03
I would guess that it does exist, I can't say it does in me though. I don't feel guilty because of what some misc. white guy did to the black slaves in this country 150 years ago because I'm white, anymore than I feel guilty for the mysoginistic crimes of men in ages past because I'm a man. I just think people should have equal rights as a blanket protection for myself. If one person can be denied equal rights than I might be denied too, but thats of topic. Yes, I see all kinds of people that feel guilt about things they've never done, and all kinds of people that expect me to feel guilty for things I've never done. But I can't really account for the reason, other than that they never stopped and asked themselves just what it is they're feeling guilty for...
 
 
Bomb The Past
19:50 / 15.05.03
I see all kinds of people that feel guilt about things they've never done

Isn't this the basis for a lot of Christianity and Judaism? The Fall and original sin and all that... Rather than liberal / white / imperial / male guilt, it's the collective guilt of humanity. Maybe that's where a lot of this guilt arising from belonging to certain groups originates. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
02:40 / 16.05.03
(I'll make this quick because I really didn’t want to be up this late tonight but this thread has been weighing on my mind for specific reasons that I shall attempt to outline in a reasonable way.)

a recent claim that certain white men, myself presumably included, were only objecting to a transphobic article to mask our own privilege and sexism (no, I don't quite get the rationale there either).

Before I address this comment I'm afraid that I'm going to have to give some personal history... my mother was a radical feminist throughout the 1970's and I suppose that she still is though she no longer attends women's groups. As a result of this I have her surname and a strong background in women's rights. My mother married a privileged white man and has continued to be married to him for over 20 years and her reaction to the notion that men cannot support feminism is thus rather outspoken. She possesses as much white, middle class guilt as my father does but her background differs. She was the child of immigrants, a member of CND and though she benefited from capitalism she hangs on to left wing beliefs. I suppose that I'm replying to this thread because she'd want me to.

There is an inherent problem with continuing the course of method that the radical feminists of the 1970's and early '80s took. The social environment has changed. Women have better prospects and though they are not necessarily equal to those that men have it is generally understood that there is little to gain in alienating half of the human race. A person who has never been in a minority- and I mostly count myself as such a person- should not have their views undermined. Privilege does not equate with ignorance or a lack of awareness and those that are privileged should be encouraged to support those that are not.

We allow guilt to intrude in to counter arguments a little too often. It tends to be an extremist point- I've been called a champagne socialist acting out of middle class guilt and I resented it... particularly because it hit home. There's a certain instability that comes with existing outside a group that you're arguing for. The very accusation that someone acts out of guilt alienates them from the cause that they intend to support and it should not be acceptable for this very reason.

Basically I think that it does feminism a disservice to employ such extreme notions as guilt (but this is getting off topic so I think I can go home now).
 
 
Quantum
09:24 / 16.05.03
I'm a white liberal hetero man in a white collar job, and I don't feel any guilt at all. I accept equality as the norm and am surprised when people don't, I'm not a radical feminist or black/gay/workers rights supporter or whatever because in my world those battles have been won. The problem now is to get True Equality, for those groups (cf the transphobic Guardian article) rather than lip service equality (cf the why clever people can't be racist thread).

I don't discriminate against minority groups or promote western imperialism or tacitly support the glass ceiling or blah blah blah- why should I feel guilty about it? If I accept responsibility for something my ethnic/social/sexual group do in general I am emphasising the group identity and encouraging division between groups based on these factors. Since I don't see those distinctions as important (people's sexual orientation and skin colour fill me with a mild but waning interest out of politeness "You're a black lesbian marxist? how fascinating, but try to stay on topic...") I don't reinforce them.

In short, white liberal middle class guilt is a waste of time and in fact encourages the classification of people on grounds of gender, race, class etc. So don't do it. Do the right thing naturally, not out of guilt.
 
 
Leap
09:32 / 16.05.03
Quantum -

You forgot “Blessed are the peacemakers”

  
 
Ganesh
09:45 / 16.05.03
I'm not sure about this - and I think my uncertainty derives partly from not knowing where 'guilt' ends and 'consciousness of inequality' begins. In a sense, the former is merely a more acutely personalised version of the latter (and, as such, might be viewed in more derogatory terms because it's seen as somehow more egocentric, more 'me me me', less abstractly 'genuine').

It seems a little disingenuous to claim one's apparently altruistic actions are never motivated by guilt. When I give money to individuals begging in the street, for example, I'd say I'm motivated by a mixture of guilt pangs (I'm warm, fed, happy; they're not) and the desire to counter those pangs in an easy, quick-fix manner which makes me feel like a warm, glowy Good Person. I don't think I'm alone in this.

As motivations go, I don't think a li-i-ittle guilt is necessarily heinous. Without it, we'd all be psychopaths.
 
 
Quantum
12:10 / 16.05.03
Yeah, guilt fulfils a useful social function and I wouldn't deny it to people (what would the Catholic church do then ) but it isn't necessary- if you can find an alternative then do. Personally I don't give to street beggars, but I'm not about to deride someone else who does even if their motive is liberal guilt.

Also there's a crucial distinction between personal guilt and group guilt. I feel guilty a lot, but for things I've actually done, not (e.g.) the genocide of native Americans by English settlers.
 
 
Ganesh
13:07 / 16.05.03
I guess I'm operating on a looser definition of guilt, shading into 'uncomfortable awareness of the inequity gap between my situation and X's' - rather than remorse or negative feeling about a specific action I (or 'my group') have or haven't carried out. Maybe I'm spreading my parameters a little too wide, and what I'm talking about isn't technically guilt anymore.
 
 
sleazenation
13:42 / 16.05.03
I'm interested on just what constitutes guilt as you use the term flyboy-

Specifically I'm thinking of situations where native peoples have been disposessed generations previously. The current generation of disposessors are still benefiting from the acts and assests siezed by their forefathers, just as the descendants of the native population are still feeling the effects of that dispossession.

So given that the the effects of dispossession are still in place for both parties is guilt the right term feelings associated with an awareness of disparity between the dispossessor's decendants might feel?
 
 
pomegranate
13:49 / 16.05.03
[this is a little threadrotty cos it's not really about guilt, i'm just responding to others' posts.]

anna writes:
Privilege does not equate with ignorance or a lack of awareness

quantum writes:
I'm not a radical feminist or black/gay/workers rights supporter or whatever because in my world those battles have been won

i would never say that being privileged automatically equates w/ignorance; obviously many priviledged people try to educate themselves about the oppression of others. however--and i'm not trying to throw hate, just speaking from personal experience--i've seen too many white hetero males say things like quantum said. it is exactly as you wrote it, quantum--in your world those battles have been won. as a white, middle class, hetero man, you feel that people of color, people of a lower economic class, and homosexuals have reached equality (if not the True Equality you speak of). my question to you is: how would you know?

like i said i'm not trying to hate on anyone but i have yet to see a person of color say something like "there's no racism anymore", just white folk.
 
 
Quantum
14:23 / 16.05.03
So I can't express my opinion because I'm not black?!
I should elaborate- IN MY LITTLE WORLD there isn't much racism or homophobia etc. because my peer group are fucking civilised. If there is any then I challenge it, I strongly support equality and strive for True Equality as the next step.
Just so I don't get painted as a patriarchal white man, I have and have always had close friends who are gay, black, transvestite, transgender, disabled, Jewish, Catholic, Pagan, Goths, WASPs women, men, children and old people and I treat them all equally. I'm not saying there is no racism or homophobia (of course there is) but not in my immediate social experience- the racism and homophobia etc. that I see every day is a lot more subtle, the unspoken prejudice that is a lot harder to identify and challenge. (cf the 'why clever people can't be racist' thread) and THAT'S where my energies go, not towards (e.g.) feminism as a movement which has largely succeeded in it's initial aims (equality at work etc.)

'my question to you is: how would you know?'
My answer is 'by observation'- women and people of colour can vote, it's illegal to discriminate on the grounds of disability, gender, sexual preference etc.
Can I talk about age discrimination (the issue of rising importance these days) even though I'm not old? Is that alright?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:29 / 16.05.03
Word, praying mantis.
 
 
Quantum
14:42 / 16.05.03
Bleh, that was a bit ranty. Sorry, I see your point, racism still exists. Being called racist trips my switch because I used to work in an environment with loads of immigrant jobseekers (Tottenham Jobcentre, North London) who were often black or asian or whatever, and if I couldn't help them they'd call me a racist. My girlfriend at the time was black so it really pissed me off. I was once called racist by a skinny white guy because I didn't serve him (as a white Briton) in preference to the 'foreigners' all around. I almost took him outside but was stopped at the door before I could beat some sense into him. Returning to dispassionate debate mode...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:54 / 16.05.03
Quantum - that lengthy list of some of your best friends who are surely just means that racism and homophobia no longer exist in the head of Quantum, yes?

I think we've got a series of confusions here - i) that "racism" or "homophobia" are distinct from the behaviours in the "why clever people can't be racist" thread, for example. Invisible racism (by which I assume we mean racism that doesn't break any laws) is still racism, hein?

ii) That suffrage and equality are the same thing. I would say that women got the vote a long time before they got full equality, which happened, as we all know, at some point in the mid-70s, after which feminism was no longer necessary.

For example, how many CEOs of Fortune 500 companies are black? How many are women? Now, I'm not arguing for positive discrimination or anything whacky like that, but if there is full equality, you'd guess maybe half are women and maybe 10% black, another 10% Latino, something like that? How is that going? I mean, if we just got complete and total equality right now, I guess we'll have to wait another twenty years or so for that to come on stream, but hey, green shoots and all that....

It's a bit like Leap saying that homosexuals have and should have equal rights. The second part is, of course, bang on, but there's a niggling itch at the back of my head about the "have" part - have a look here to see if anyone could help me scratch it. To paraphrase the man himself, it strikes me that the price of equality is eternal vigilance.


How this all ties into guilt is a different question, and does depend to an extent on how we define guilt. Seems to me we can have guilt as an emotion - a species of feeling bad from the desire not to feel which actions extend, or as a matter of policy, a recognition that inequalities exist as a result of actions in the past favouring or disadvantaging a particular group and that subsequent action should be informed by that....
 
 
Leap
15:07 / 16.05.03
Haus -

For example, how many CEOs of Fortune 500 companies are black? How many are women? Now, I'm not arguing for positive discrimination or anything whacky like that, but if there is full equality, you'd guess maybe half are women and maybe 10% black, another 10% Latino, something like that? How is that going? I mean, if we just got complete and total equality right now, I guess we'll have to wait another twenty years or so for that to come on stream, but hey, green shoots and all that....

Unless of course the levels of greed and family-destroying workaholicism that lead to such high positins are, culturaly speaking, a predominantly a white male thing.....?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:13 / 16.05.03
Possibly so. But it's also where all the money and power is. Are you saying that black people, latino people and white women (for example) are too wise for that shit in general, which is why institutions like the Senate are made up mainly of white men?
 
 
passer
15:16 / 16.05.03

Personally, I'm okay with guilt that drives people to greater awareness and working to right the wrongs in the world. However, that does not mean that I think slinging slurs about peoples' motives is terribly productive, particulary if they're trying to help you, but I'm all about not biting the hand that feeds me, gift horses, and all that. Which of course raises the question: is any aid, no matter, the source appropriate at all times, but surely that's another thread entirely. Back to topic, eh?

As for the whether "anyone here think[s] this kind of guilt *is* a bit factor in motivating liberal politics,” I feel it all hinges on your definitions. I’d say there are two really popular responses to perceived inequality, especially that which affects you personally: anger or guilt. Generally which one you tend toward depends on with which side of the scales you identify. I think both are great emotional motivation for positive action, but the import stops there. I don’t care if you’re vigilant about the rights of others because Jesus told you to, because you feel guilty or because you think it makes that green nail polish forgivable. I’m just happy if you do it consistently and effectively.

My worry is that too frequently "I'm not guilty" is a cover up for "I don't feel like taking the time to analyze my complicity in privilege or working to eliminate it". Using your privilege to help others is great, but perhaps your efforts at distributing your ill gotten gains should be devoted to making sure that there are no ill gotten gains? If you're doing these things, then no I don't think you should feel guilty. However, I question people who claim that they've solved the problem to the extent that they can by pass it entirely.

And for the record, anyone trying to avoid being called racist should definitely avoid any phrase beginning with “some of my closest/best friends are….” There was great comedian who pointed out that there’s something a little crazy about someone making the argument that x and y don’t matter while obsessively categorizing their friends by x and y. I’m getting old and the details like who said it and his exact wording escape me.
 
 
Leap
15:21 / 16.05.03
Haus –

Possibly so. But it's also where all the money and power is. Are you saying that black people, latino people and white women (for example) are too wise for that shit in general, which is why institutions like the Senate are made up mainly of white men?

I am asking whether they generally have a more pro-family and anti-greed culture / sub-culture that actively discourages the attitudes needed to achieve the top-flight positions (which invariably require greed and family-sacrifice to get there). Certainly a question worth asking I think.

Nobody ever stops to ask whether being a CEO of a big corp is in any way a good thing……
 
 
passer
15:46 / 16.05.03
I am biting my tongue so as not reply to the discussion of culture, values, racism, and capitalism, but I feel that is it a bit off topic. Leap or Haus, perhaps this discussion could be a thread all on its own?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:47 / 16.05.03
I agree entirely - will start a new thread.
 
 
Leap
15:49 / 16.05.03
A little bot of thread-rot never hurt anyone

Go for it Passer
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:08 / 16.05.03
A little bit of thread-rot, in this case, will be moved here, and deleted from this thread. Quicker and easier to move that discussion over to start with.
 
 
pomegranate
16:56 / 16.05.03
danke, flyboy.

quantum. i didn't call you racist. i don't think i did. i certainly didn't mean to. i was just pointing something out. yes, yr allowed to express yr opinions even tho' yr not black! except i take umbrage w/people stating opinions about something they don't neccessarily know about (doesn't everyone); namely, what it's like to be a racial minority/queer/lower class (economically). of course, i'm guilty of this too; i still express my opinions; but maybe it *is* white/straight/middle class guilt that makes me, when in doubt, lean more to the left. after all i'll never be fired from my job cos of the gender of my sexual partner, i'll never be pulled over for Driving While White. etc, etc.
 
  
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