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Mundaning the Freaks

 
  

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Tryphena Absent
01:14 / 05.05.03
You What?
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
05:35 / 05.05.03
yes, i what quite often...
but really, im not sure what you are referencing
 
 
Lurid Archive
07:13 / 05.05.03
the point is that everyone should be challenged to think outside the box,

Oh dear.

even people who claim to be outside it already...

Double dear.

I have no issue with this sort of thing, because if i want to go and listen to the music i like then by god i better conform to what they consider the right kind of person to like their music.

Tempting as it is to see the first clause here as being contradicted by the second, I think it might be better to pause for thought. OK. You have been treated shabbily by some goths, either implicitly or explicitly and perhaps both.

The thing to keep in mind is that goths are like normal people. Some are rude and judgemental, deciding on the innate qualities of a person by what they wear. Doubtless this will have been informed by some negative experiences, in some cases. Luckily, you are above that kind of crude sterotyping and able to cope maturely when you encounter defensiveness in a "safe" environment.
 
 
gingerbop
11:53 / 05.05.03
Why cant we all just be naked?
 
 
that
12:08 / 05.05.03
Because we'd get cold. And because then people would just judge us based on our pubic hair or lack thereof. And, if you couldn't be bothered to shave your legs, where would you hide them?
 
 
telyn
13:07 / 05.05.03
I have no issue with this sort of thing, because if i want to go and listen to the music i like then by god i better conform to what they consider the right kind of person to like their music.

Well, I agree that is a good idea to have respect for the environment you are in, club or otherwise. However, I don't believe that means you have to conform, more just have an appreciation and not cause hassle.

I go (regularly enough) out to goth nights and know many of those in my city who are interested in goth stuff. I am not a goth: my interests do not lie there and I do not dress like one. However the people I know treat me well because I make an effort to be friendly with them.
 
 
Dances with Gophers
13:12 / 05.05.03
And someone would always say "Why aint you got yer naughty bits pierced!".

I was once the only person at a Quireboys concert without cowboy boots.
 
 
w1rebaby
13:34 / 05.05.03
And, if you couldn't be bothered to shave your legs, where would you hide them?

No matter how much I try to hide my legs, people still seem to know they're there.
 
 
Dances with Gophers
13:37 / 05.05.03
I used to go to an alternative night at a club in Portsmouth, the only people who used to get suspicious looks were the 30 somethings in their suits. It was felt they were intruding.


Secret Chiefs upstairs at the Princess Louise is a mixture of most sub cultures but you can always tell the people that have wandered in by mistake they are usually welcomed but you know they won't stay long. I often wonder what they think, if they feel they are intruding or if they think "Oh god what have I walked into here?"
 
 
pomegranate
14:37 / 05.05.03
she commented "oh my god, you wore jeans to the club, thats so strange" as a guy wearing a diaper made of PVC walked by...
lmao...

the "safe space" issue is a good one to bring up. i hadn't thought of it that way.
[threadrot-esque]
makes me think of the whole issue w/the michigan womyn's festival; anyone here familiar w/it? basically, they say it's for women only, transgendered people are welcome, but only if they've had the surgery to become women. which many people are saying is classist cos obviously not everyone can afford such extensive surgery. but then again they want it to be a safe space for women, many women walk around topless and any old frat boy could just say he was "woman-identified" to come in and see titties and women kissing.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
17:09 / 05.05.03
Ah, so many open goals here, and such restraint needed. I'll be as brief and to the point as I can:

If i go to a normal bar and i see 2 men holding hands its not acceptable to say "your holding hands here?".

The point, Elijah, is that sadly it *is* all too acceptable to do that in a (to use your expression) "normal" bar. It happens all the fucking time, and if you're deluded enough to think that it's your poor heterosexual self who suffers from an inequality here, then your claim of understanding the need for safe space rings a bit hollow.

You're right though, the photos thread helps shed a fair bit of light on this one. And also suggests Haus' solution may have practical benefits for the denizens of goth clubs, as well as yourself.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
17:48 / 05.05.03
And why is it I keep remembering the night I saw the Mighty Mighty Bosstones, was in full Ska suit and tie then then went to see All The Pretty Horses when that concert was over and had people moving away from me at the bar because I was WAY too shiny for a goth band...

Maybe I should just dress in a orange jumpsuit like Mike Nelson on MST3K...he never seemed to fit in anywhere, and that seems like how I feel.
 
 
grant
20:26 / 05.05.03
Once turned up at Edinburgh's fetish monthly in a pinstripe suit - but it was a velvet pinstripe, so rather sensuous. Got some odd looks from the rubber/leather/PVC crowd, though.



I got bounced from a fetish night once for showing up in all white (including foundation). Hey, there was a leather jacket and everything. Depressing, really. I need to get some new white pants....
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:55 / 05.05.03
I went to a goth wedding a few years back (this anecdote does have a purpose, bear with me). At the time, I had long black dreads, but no longer wore the makeup. Having realised the day before the wedding that the groom's friends were largely wankers, myself and a friend went wearing suits, and felt very out of place, but turned out to be muchly cool, especially when we noticed that one of the guests (another Slimelight guy, funnily enough) was wearing a swastika armband. To someone's wedding. In a church. At that moment, I figured I'd rather be the suit-wearer.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
22:20 / 05.05.03
look, im not saying that i feel that i was being "kept down by the goth man"

for fucks sake people

look point a is that goths get funny looks in public, and they claim its bullshit and they should not be judged by outward appearence

point b is that when you dont conform to the goth look, but are in goth space, you are looked at funny and avoided because you dont fit in.

just because "normal" or "mundane" people are the majority does not mean that its suddenly ok to be classist in the minority settings. Unless of course it would be ok for me to get lynched in harlem because white people have done so in the past when african americans enter their domain...

yes, i am being intentionally inflammitory, because the point of this post was NOT to talk about how much fun it is messing with the poor persecuted goths, the point of this thread was to talk about goofy shit i have done to counter the conformist ideas of goth culture.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:24 / 05.05.03
But that's not about being a goth, is it? It's about being a huge hairy cock...

First up, I always thought "mundane" was the most irritating term - a means by which people could group together everyone who didn't want to join their little club as unexciting, dull, stupid and, god damnit, not as damn sexy as themselves. Given that I first encountered the term being used by a particularly malodorous Comic Book Guy in a Best of Queen T-shirt, the irony seemed a little too close.

Subsequently, I've been far more annoyed by the term "pikey", to describe overweight, uneducated, tab-smoking commoners, presumably to distinguish them from the overweight, undereducated, tab-smoking goths who use the term - see the lovely Smogo. But this isn't goth behaviour - it's git behaviour, and is just as common on the other side of the barricades.

The safe space issue is a more complex one - and PM, I think my favourite comment on the transpeople issue is from Deva, who said of Ladyfest that it is probably the duty of the organisers to continue to exclude transwomen and the duty of the trans community to continue protests against their exclusion. In general, though...goths, and fetishists, and gay couples (etc) can get a pretty rough time if they act as they wish in the outside world; people see them as different and react accordingly, often with abuse or violence. I myself have a bad habit of declaring "Goth! Pointy pointy goth!" or "Oh, look at the lovely Spooky Kid! Isn't he just the princiest Prince of Darkness!" when I see our darker brethren, purely out of habit. I see it as a joyful celebration, but it might be a bit disconcerting and I have tried to tone it down.

Point being goth clubs, or fetish clubs, or gay clubs, are there for good reasons; one being perhaps that the rest of the world can feel like a casual, vanilla, or straight club enough of the time to make paying for a bit of shared space where you can let your hair down with others of a similar mind an enticing option. Which is why having somebody apparently belonging to that club in the middle of your safe space might be a bit discombobulating, especially if they have numbers and are looking lairy.

So, if you are in the middle of someone's safe space, and not sending out the right signals, it is incumbent upon you to be polite and not to get upset if people are a little confused at your presence. That is, after all, what they get to do every time they pass a non-goth in the street. Likewise, as Gothic Miss Manners insists, goths should be friendly, polite and informative if non-goths ask about their outfits or their subculture in the street. Part self-preservation, part simple politeness. In no part rocket science.

However, non-goth partners of goths seem to do OK at Whitby (I'll dig up a photo gallery if I can); possibly because they are wearing non-goth clothes because they happen not to be a goth, rather than because they are trying to make a point, or because they have come to peer at the freaks, a sad but fairly obvious reason for both door codes and suspicion of MissLenore's kind.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
22:28 / 05.05.03
yes, i apologize for the fact that this thread has been aimed at goths alone

punks and rivet heads and industrial kids all go the the club here, and usually have the same reaction.

oddly enough the people who seem east suspicious of my everyday wear were the band The Strand when i went to their show on saturday right from work in dress slacks and a button down shirt.
 
 
gingerbop
14:20 / 06.05.03
Its silly, silly, silly.
Goth boyfriend-type-something-i-dont-know-what and non-goth friends. Both think of each other as wierd, but if they dressed like each other, they'd get pissed off. So whats the deal- Half the people are slaggin others off for not wearing the same kind of clothes as them, and if they do, its even worse. Crazy.
I repeat, lets all be naked.
 
 
pomegranate
14:48 / 06.05.03
when i see hardcore punkers or goths, i just prefer to not stare in the least, just cos i know so many of them want me to.

especially the fifteen year olds.
 
 
gingerbop
15:08 / 06.05.03
Bu then the rest of them want you to look away, awkwardly.
 
 
Salamander
16:13 / 06.05.03
I know this much, I've been to goth clubs in Seattle, (yes kids seattle!), San Fran, Los Angeles, (always will be home), Dallas Ft. Worth Metroplex, and last but not least goth Tokyo. Some goths were polite talkative and interesting fun people. Others were rude as hell and on the verge of getting a fist. It's the same with all groups, some are friendly towards outsiders, some aren't. To some membership in a group is just a defacto issue, it's just their most natural way of living. With others, they need a safe space from which to sneer at others. There is nothing wrong with either sub(sub?)group, this is how human beings are, goths (punks, ect.) may look goth, but they are still human, I'm sorry for those of you who look goth that have been mistreated, but a monkeys a monkey, and this is what monkeys do.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
16:31 / 06.05.03
Oh gingerbop...no one wants to see the Rose naked. Trust me on that one.

I think a lot of it depends on the group of people involved and where they are gathering. Here in Minneapolis, there used to be a "goth night" at the Mall of America's "frat boy" bar on Sundays, and the people there were very welcoming, engaging and wanted to make new friends. Other "nights" I have been to have been downright rude, and in one specific case, so condescending that I felt like I needed to have a list of creditials.

I find the exclusionary feelings of all subcultures to be almost tribal in a way, and shows that no matter how enlightened we feel we are, there is a deep seated fear/hatred of the "other". Which is hard for me, since I don't feel like I fit into any sort of culture well.

That being said, I would say that every culture has it's weird, messed up factions and its friendly welcoming factions. Some just have more of one than the other.

And yesh. The jumpsuit is sounding more appealing all the time. That or a kilt and a leather jacket ala Roddy Piper.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
16:43 / 06.05.03
a monkeys a monkey, and this is what monkeys do reminded me of Rod Liddle's column in the Guardian, week before last, from his holiday in Thailand.

Monkeys sure don't like those who look different. There are many crab-eating macaques in the vicinity and, he says, guests are awakened every morning by the sound of the hotel staff shooting them to stop their monkey shenanigans. Gruesome, but there's more.

That's not all they do, the hotel people. When they get bored of shooting the monkeys, they instead catch a large alpha male in a net trap and spray it with Krazy Kolors, either scarlet or luminous blue or puke green, depending on their mood. The painted monkey is then set free.

You can watch him for a bit, the dejected, bizarrely arrayed monkey, as he skulks around in the undergrowth not quite knowing what to do with himself. But you don't get to watch him for long. Soon the remaining monkeys espy their former colleague and, noticing with consternation that he is an unfamiliar colour, band together and kick the living shit out of him.


It is a liberating prospect, nevertheless, this adoption of macaque manners as a guide to clubbing etiquette and social interaction, proposed by Hermes Nuclear.
 
 
Char Aina
16:56 / 06.05.03
man, i was going to try and curry favour with your boyfriend, but i find myself falling instead for you, xoc...


any chance of a threesome?
 
 
fidrich
13:19 / 07.05.03
I think that a lot of it has to do with attitude. Recently me and a few friends went to an alternative club, which also tends to attract a lot of gay and bisexual people. One friend was wearing fairly normal clothes, which she was nervous would be badly recieved. Another was wearing fairly standard punk clothes.

The first friend spent the night dancing, talking to people, enjoying the music, etc. The other spent the night bitching about all the "homos" and slunking around at the walls. Which had the most fun, do you think?

Of course, I know a lot of people who've been beaten up or taunted for the way they dress (or their sexual orientation, or whatever) and who would feel quite violated if a large group of addidas wearing, gold-jewlery sporting people came to their "safe place", acting in an agressive or provocative (which has happened). On the other hand, there are a few people who go to this "safe place" - not the club I mention above, somewhere else - who *do* dress in such a way, but because they're friendly and non-agressive there doesn't seem to be any problems with it.

Of course, this is only my experience; I don't want to go making some big blanket statement on the basis of a few friendly neds in an alternative hang-out, one cheerful friend and one rather homophobic friend.
 
 
Char Aina
15:11 / 07.05.03
i had a friend who went with us to a similar club in london... and he got as far as the queue.


his excuse was something along the lines of "i've been to these kind of places before, and i'd rather not put myself in that position".
made me laugh out loud, which i think may be why he and i never talk.
what is it about some people that makes them think that gay people are out to rape them?

what was the club you went to, fidrich? if it was the same one it was very mixed in terms of its clientelle, dress sense and sex sense, which i quite liked. cant for the life of me remeber what it was called, though.
 
 
Quantum
15:32 / 07.05.03
perhaps controversially, I'd like to point out the subculture uniforms worn by goths, punks et al are a reaction against the boring clothes 'norms' wear and designed to draw attention. You can't go out in a top hat and Robert Smith makeup with winklepickers and a black feather boa on a saturday morning and complain when people stare. You wear it to MAKE people stare. The converse is not true, people wear boring clothes NOT to attract attention, so the cases are not parallel.

I wear normal clothes when gothing (jeans and a T shirt) and am often left to sit in the corner while everyone stares, feeling out of place and that nobody understands me. The irony is not lost on me... maybe I'll write a lengthy poem about doom and angst...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:39 / 07.05.03
Is that entirely a result of your clothes, though? Surely behaviour is always a factor here too...
 
 
pomegranate
17:15 / 07.05.03
i will never recover from the mental image of goth night at a frat bar at the mall of freakin' america!!! amazing.
 
 
The Natural Way
09:24 / 08.05.03
Much like many of the "urban" dance clubs, with dress codes involving baggyness of pants and certain "gang" wear

Elijah sounds like my mum.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:09 / 08.05.03
Is that entirely a result of your clothes, though? Surely behaviour is always a factor here too...

I tend to fall in line with the argument that states different clothes allow you to behave in different ways. Thus Quantum's behaviour in the goth club can not be like everyone elses unless he starts to dress up more. It's just too flamboyant and sinister when you're only wearing jeans.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:05 / 08.05.03
And yr only going to end up in the women's bogs begging Auntie Mordant for a go of her eyeliner .

I wouldn't say that my goon rags have attention-seeking as their primary purpose. They're just the clothes that I happen to like best. The staring/shouting/spitting is something to be tolerated as an unfortunate side effect of looking the way I want to look.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:34 / 08.05.03
Elijah sounds like my mum

Yes, there are dozens of shootings on the streets of Brixton every day, many of them Jungle-related...
 
  

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