BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


What is EDUCATION and how does one enact it effectively?

 
  

Page: 1(2)34

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:25 / 30.04.03
You're combining several different principles there. First, the assumption that city people are more "focused". Second, that being less focused leads to greater environmental awareness. Third, that rural people are less "specialised" than urban populations, which has yet to find any proof (in what sense is a crofter or a cooper less specialised than, say, urban ol' me?). And so on.

Has anyone noticed that every single thread, no matter what argument or thesis it might start out as, is turned by Leap into a discussion of the joys of manly rural life? The hedgehog, as has been said before, knows one big thing.
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:28 / 30.04.03
Thanks KKC, I was going to bring up witchcraft, but you do it with much more authority than me.

But perhaps social grouping is a valid consideration here. As Ganesh says, there is a tendency for observers to make certain errors that participants do not. Is it possible that familiarity with different sorts of people and identification with them could leave one less likely to make attribution errors of some sorts?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:35 / 30.04.03
I'm not sure that this is really getting anywhere as I suspect we're both arguing from gut feeling - yours being that people in urban environments fall into errors more easily because they make snap judgements whereas people living in rural environments have more time to consider such things because they are less harassed. Mine is that, while people make snap judgements in urban environments, people in rural environments are also liable to make judgements on people based on misunderstandings of the factors behind their actions, and that the possibility for greater consideration of those actions is as likely to lead to longer-term, more festering misunderstandings within the community as it is to lead to mutual comprehension. I may be wrong - I don't have any evidence for that; and I'd be interested to see any that you have.

I don't really see what environmental impact has to do with this - what do you mean by it?
 
 
Leap
10:38 / 30.04.03
haus -

You're combining several different principles there. First, the assumption that city people are more "focused".

City life tends to function on specialists. Specialisation tends to focus people more (and in doing so encourage a degree of focusing that carries over into the rest of their lives).

Second, that being less focused leads to greater environmental awareness.

A wider awareness comes from a broader focus. A restricted awareness comes from a tighter focus. Common sense really. (I mean environment in the “surroundings” sense, rather than the “green” sense).

Third, that rural people are less "specialised" than urban populations, which has yet to find any proof (in what sense is a crofter or a cooper less specialised than, say, urban ol' me?). And so on.

Rural folk tend to be more self-reliant than city folk (who tend to rely more on “service providers”).

Has anyone noticed that every single thread, no matter what argument or thesis it might start out as, is turned by Leap into a discussion of the joys of manly rural life? The hedgehog, as has been said before, knows one big thing

Hey, I have a basis to what I believe rather than just floating around in some post-modern froth, which invariably colours my attitude. You think this is odd?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:42 / 30.04.03
Actually, to be honest, my gut feeling is that small rural communities are if anything more liable to misapprehension, especially regarding the actions of outsiders. C.f. witch-craft.
 
 
Leap
10:43 / 30.04.03
Kit Kat -

I think we shall have to agree to differ then
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:50 / 30.04.03
Has anyone else noticed that arguing with leap is very much like arguing with a conspiracy theorist? Even though he claims to dislike the latter?

Leap. I think it is clear that by "rural" you mean pre-technological. Perhaps more than that, as I find it hard to see a blacksmith as anything but specialised, which you claim is absent from rural communities.

Hey, I have a basis to what I believe rather than just floating around in some post-modern froth, which invariably colours my attitude. You think this is odd?

I believe that some of us find it odd that you can claim to have any basis to your beliefs as they seem so badly thought out to the rest of us. Postmodernism has very little to do with it.
 
 
Ganesh
10:56 / 30.04.03
Errors of attribution are not about being "rushed" or having to make snap decisions. In the 'lit/unlit gymnasiums' example, the observers were not asked to make snap judgments but had the entirety of the game to rate the skills of the participants. They didn't "miss" the 'lighting' (situational) factor either; they merely underestimated it compared to the 'human skills' (dispositional) factor.

It's interesting that the tendency toward FAE is apparently more evident in societies which emphasise the primacy of the individual (the example I read compared the US and India) over collective responsibility...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:57 / 30.04.03
And round and round we go. Endlessly circular, without even a hint of charm. In fact, the boy is downright rude, and utterly unable to stay on topic. We have had "postmodern", and I think he's also trotted out "politically correct", so we just need "sophistry" and he will have completed the distrustful of book-larning bingo card.

And never mind "agree to differ". If you mean that there is no evidence to substantiate your claims, and that they are a mixture of prejudice and intuition, Leap, then be so good as to say so. Once we are aware that there is no science or reason behind your Hesiodic views of humanity we can stop looking for then.
 
 
Ganesh
11:02 / 30.04.03
Common sense, really.

'Common sense', as is one of the central themes of this thread, is commonly inaccurate. Biases prevail, and the intuitive, instinctive and apparently self-evident are of little 'transferable value' without some attempt at objective testing.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:11 / 30.04.03
Of course, there is the problem of how one achieves "objectivity" in order to make these observations in the first place. Highly non-trivial, given the subject matter, I would have thought.

Do you know how reliably these hypotheses have been tested Ganesh? Large random samples, replicability, different experimenters and all that? Also, I think it would be very interesting to see how cross cultural these biases really are. You've made reference to the US and India, which is interesting for starters.
 
 
Ganesh
11:14 / 30.04.03
Lurid: Large, random samples, mainly, replicated in different groups. The fact that the likes of the FAE is relatively easy to test in a single 'snapshot' (ie. on one occasion, with no particular need for follow-up, etc.) makes it a popular social psychology experiment.
 
 
Leap
11:27 / 30.04.03
Lurid –

Leap. I think it is clear that by "rural" you mean pre-technological. Perhaps more than that, as I find it hard to see a blacksmith as anything but specialised, which you claim is absent from rural communities.

What is pre-technological?! If tech = tools then you are suggesting a great many years ago!!

City folks are increasingly less able to look after themselves (the loss of the ability to cook is an easy to note occurrence of this) relying primarily on “service providers”. The blacksmith was in all likelihood a jack of many trades with a specialism in one area (as many rural folk are), whilst the city person is free to specialise to an even higher degree than the blacksmith (which is why it takes cities to produce, for example, aeronautical engineers) whilst giving up are great many of their lesser skills to equally specialised service providers.

Ganesh –

In the 'lit/unlit gymnasiums' example, the observers were not asked to make snap judgments but had the entirety of the game to rate the skills of the participants. They didn't "miss" the 'lighting' (situational) factor either; they merely underestimated it compared to the 'human skills' (dispositional) factor.

The narrow focus of our generally rushed life carries over into the non rushed parts (hence the fact that office workers driven by the high speed mentality of the modern economy often jump into their cars and carry over the mentality of the rush-rush world…contributing greatly to the many road accidents we suffer in this country). The watchers of the game, being probably city dwellers, would also suffer form this general colouring of our perceptions, leading to a reduced ability to contextualise what they are seeing.

It's interesting that the tendency toward FAE is apparently more evident in societies which emphasise the primacy of the individual (the example I read compared the US and India) over collective responsibility...

Perhaps because collectivised societies tend to be more orderly and thus easier to respond to?

Haus –

And round and round we go. Endlessly circular, without even a hint of charm. In fact, the boy is downright rude, and utterly unable to stay on topic. We have had "postmodern", and I think he's also trotted out "politically correct", so we just need "sophistry" and he will have completed the distrustful of book-larning bingo card.

So nice of you to tell everyone what I am saying (I should expect little else given your propensity for supporting big govt) in the apparent assumption that they cannot read my posts for themselves. Do you work as a spin doctor by any chance?

And never mind "agree to differ". If you mean that there is no evidence to substantiate your claims, and that they are a mixture of prejudice and intuition, Leap, then be so good as to say so. Once we are aware that there is no science or reason behind your Hesiodic views of humanity we can stop looking for then.

Because of course in YOUR world (Hausville?) personal experience , which is after all not quite the same as the opinion you keep twittering on about, counts for nothing as most people cannot even be trusted to acts of charity, never mind being trusted to portray their experience accurately and honestly.

Tell me; do you have anything that is not “pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered”?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:36 / 30.04.03
So, you can't actually mount a coherent defence of your position, and have to resort to trying to suggest that anyone who disagrees with you is somehow affected by the mind-controlling virus of the city and as such unreliable.

I wish I could trust you to be remotely civil, or remotely interested in following the actual thread of a discussion rather than endlessly turning it around to your desire for lusty blacksmiths pounding metal in their hot, sweaty forges, but I can't. I do not believe that this is because of your inbred, half-educated rusticity; I am quite happy to identify the fault here as that of your person rather than your environment.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:36 / 30.04.03
Forget magic and superstition - you should've seen the women in the bottling room I used to work in when the black postman turned up. They were all at the window, young and old alike, muttering stuff like: "Oooh, he's as black as the night!"

Village awareness really extends beyond the peripheries...
 
 
Ganesh
11:40 / 30.04.03
Again, Leap, provide us with some evidence, please. Road traffic accidents, having a much higher incidence and severity on rural roads are a somewhat leaky example. Your speculation that those who live in cities have contextualising difficulties is similarly insubstantial: one might equally conclude that those with a 'faster pace' or life would become more skilled at contextualisation.

As for collectivist societies being "easier to respond to", I'm not at all sure what you mean, and how it might relate to FAE.
 
 
Leap
11:50 / 30.04.03
Ganesh -

Road traffic accidents, having a much higher incidence and severity on rural roads are a somewhat leaky example.

The most common cause being rat-running commuters driving on reads not suited to such (trust me, this is my professional field), rather than locals.

Your speculation that those who live in cities have contextualising difficulties is similarly insubstantial: one might equally conclude that those with a 'faster pace' or life would become more skilled at contextualisation.

Generally speaking, the quicker the pace, the tighter the focus. Have you never heard of the saying “less haste, more speed”? It refers to the accidents that arise with rushing. Did you never get told the story of the tortoise and the hare when you were young? Folk wisdom typically has stood the test of time. Some of it is crap (superstition etc. like your witches example (although given that the witch burnings were whipped up by a social elite, that is hardly the best of examples)) but most of it has to survive the school of hard knocks.

As for collectivist societies being "easier to respond to", I'm not at all sure what you mean, and how it might relate to FAE.

It was a question relating to whether a collectivist society, typically being more ordered through high levels of management, are easier for its inhabitants to respond to, and so gives a comparatively misleading answer to the subject of FAE?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:02 / 30.04.03
Less haste, more speed, the tortoise and the hare, a stitch in time saves nine, there's many a slip 'twixt cup and lip, and *that's* why we lost the World Cup, children!

Marvellous, marvellous I tell you. The level of evidence being proferred here is just fantastic. Literally. Fantastic.
 
 
Ganesh
12:07 / 30.04.03
Leap:

Actually, I am interested in the urban/rural Road Traffic Accidents. I'm sure commuters do account for a sizeable proportion (although the effect of higher speed limits must also be factored in), but I'd prefer to see your evidence rather than merely "trust" you.

"Generally speaking" and "folk wisdom" just don't cut it, I'm afraid. I say your comments on urban/rural differences in contextualising ability belong to the "crap superstition" school of supposedly self-evident homily. Prove me wrong, please. (That's 'prove' - y'know, with at least a soupcon of objective evidence over homespun assumption?)

I still can't quite understand how one "responds to" a society, as opposed to living within it. I rather suspect that those societies which emphasise collective responsibility are less likely to judge phenomenon in terms of individuals and their skills/successes because the rights of the individual are accorded less primacy, and one is perceived to stand or fall by factors other than one's individual ability/effort or lack of it.
 
 
Leap
12:19 / 30.04.03
Haus –

So, you can't actually mount a coherent defence of your position,

Can you mount a coherent attack on it beyond the singularly pathetic denial of anything that is not “pushed, filed, stamped….”?

You deny the simple, the common, in favour of some grand academic edifice that leaves you with such witticisms as *that's* why we lost the World Cup, children! - all part of your “do not trust the common man, WE the wise ones will look after you my children” line?

Your ignorance is only surpassed by your arrogance! No wonder you do not like my anti-govt stance; you are a snob.


Ganesh –

Actually, I am interested in the urban/rural Road Traffic Accidents. I'm sure commuters do account for a sizeable proportion (although the effect of higher speed limits must also be factored in), but I'd prefer to see your evidence rather than merely "trust" you.

I am afraid my evidence is bound by the Data Protection Act, all I can suggest that you do is approach your local County Council (they too should have such info and be able to respond to a written application).

As regards speed, yes inappropriate speed does figure in the vast (and I mean VAST) majority of accidents, however, the choice to travel at that speed remains with the drivers perceptions. There are moves underway to concentrate more on driver awareness (both through education and changes to the highway structure) than simple speed cameras / reductions.

"Generally speaking" and "folk wisdom" just don't cut it, I'm afraid. I say your comments on urban/rural differences in contextualising ability belong the "crap superstition" element of supposedly self-evident assumption. Prove me wrong, please. (That's 'prove' - y'know, with at least a soupcon of objective evidence?)

I am working on the research as we speak (ongoing). As soon as it is finished it will be published. [shameless plug]

I still can't quite understand how one "responds to" a society, as opposed to living within it.

Sorry, that should have said creates an environment that is easier for its inhabitants to respond to

Typo.

I rather suspect that those societies which emphasise collective responsibility are less likely to judge phenomenon in terms of individuals and their skills/successes because the rights of the individual are accorded less primacy, and one is perceived to stand or fall by factors other than one's individual ability/effort or lack of it.

Which is why Karma is not a central concept in much Indian sub-continental religiosity? [needs a “cheeky grin” smiley]
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:26 / 30.04.03
No, Leapy, I am not a snob. You are simply operating so far below the levels at which an argument is deemed coherent or worth serious discussion that it is hard to hide my contempt for your methods. Ganesh regularly works with the unstable; I gained no such professional preparation in my previous employment as a fletcher. Especially as, to add to your beer-swilling hypocrisy (luxurious self-indulger that you are), you add the sin of watching television, with your repetitious and unoriginal steal from The Prisoner which is clearly a product of fallen, urban nature. And you repeat yourself so tiresomely, in lieu of a convincing argument. If you recall, I took apart the precepts of your agrarian elitism some time ago, and you failed utterly to respond to that lengthy dissection. It is both simple and common knowledge that your position is incoherent and increasingly nonsensical, and no amount of cheeky grin smileys or fatuous one-liners will alter that.
 
 
Ganesh
12:37 / 30.04.03
Okayyy... so the evidence is there but it's either inaccessible or "ongoing". Fine - but until you can produce it here, your theorising still fall squarely within the "crap superstition" bracket.

Karma? Sure, but the Hindu concept of karma is expanded to include reward/punishment in other lives before and after this one, as well as the importance of others ("win-lose" relationships are not considered karmically advantageous). There's a good dollop of past-life 'fatalism' in the mix.

But yes, I'll happily concede this is speculation on my part.
 
 
Leap
12:47 / 30.04.03
Haus –

No, Leapy, I am not a snob.

Thankyou for telling me; me being an ignorant bumpkin I have no idea when I am being patronised.

You are simply operating so far below the levels at which an argument is deemed coherent or worth serious discussion that it is hard to hide my contempt for your methods.

Can you explain to me why the historical precedents much “folk wisdom” follow is operating … far below the levels at which an argument is deemed coherent or worth serious discussion ?

to add to your beer-seilling hypocrisy (luxurious self-indulger that you are), you add the sin of watching television, with your repetitious

Twice is repetitious now is it?

and unoriginal steal

Quoting is now theft is it?

from The Prisoner which is clearly a product of fallen, urban nature.

As are 90% of my life – I am proposing change for society, not just me.

And you repeat yourself so tiresomely, in lieu of a convincing argument.

Twice is tiresome? You must be sorely vexed Mr Haus!

If you recall, I took apart the precepts of your agrarian elitism some time ago,

please be so good as to let me know how this applies to this discussion in any direct way?

Ganesh –

Okayyy... so the evidence is there but it's either inaccessible or "ongoing". Fine - but until you can produce it here, your theorising still fall squarely within the "crap superstition" bracket.

Or you could approach the data through the means I suggested and FOFOFY.

And as regards Karma, where you say the Hindu concept of karma is expanded to include reward/punishment in other lives before and after this one, as well as the importance of others ("win-lose" relationships are not considered karmically advantageous). you are not being strictly accurate.

Hindu karma is tied up into obediance to a social role (lower castes move to higher castes (in the next life) by being true to their current caste) - a masterful means of social control!!!! Masterful and scary!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:07 / 30.04.03
Your repetition:

"Common Sense"

"Nature"

"Generally"

"Vast majority"

"Specialised"

"Multifaceted"

"Dignity"

"Modesty"

And on, and on, and one. Another piece of folk wisdom which, like your hare and tortoise, actually originates in Ancient Greece and not the dales of rustic England, is that the fox knows many small things, the hedgehog one big thing. You're the hedgehog, banging the same drum endlessly in the face of criticisms that you either ignore or claim that you would be able to answer perfectly were it not for the Data Protection Act/the current derangement of your notes/the moon being in the seventh house, and somehow expect us to take this as proof in itself. Many of the precepts informing your approach to this topic have been taken apart by myself and others and, as I mentioned (and I loathe the fact that you force me to repeat myself as if to a slow schoolchild) you have signally failed to address the yawning gaps in your theory identified elsewhere, merely barreling on with the same tubthumpng and then crying threadrot when your failure is mentioned, interrupting your off-topic rambling about road accidents.

In a sense, the sheer persistence demands a degree of admiration. Many people on this board and elsewhere want to change the world fundamentally to bring it into line with their beliefs. You, I believe, are the first person to want to change it fundamentally to bring it into line with your *hobbies*. A day of "woodlore", a couple of pints of locally-produced real ale, and perhaps the opportunity to use those melee weapons you enjoy playing with so much at the Special Sealed Knot, but on real paupers. Beautiful. I want more pool tables, damn it. More pool tables now! I like pool, and I believe that with more pool tables there would be no war, disease or poverty.

Meanwhile, we seem to be overlooking the fact that one of the behaviours that would be required would be the happy excision of (at a guess, as you have never managed to propose a coherent figure) 50 million inhabitants of the British Isles. How would we go about that? and what would EDUCATION teach us about immigration? And why am I still bothering? How huge is my faith in human nature? Inquiring minds need to know...
 
 
Leap
13:46 / 30.04.03
Haus –

And on, and on, and one. Another piece of folk wisdom which, like your hare and tortoise, actually originates in Ancient Greece and not the dales of rustic England, is that the fox knows many small things, the hedgehog one big thing. You're the hedgehog, banging the same drum endlessly in the face of criticisms that you either ignore or claim that you would be able to answer perfectly were it not for the Data Protection Act/the current derangement of your notes/the moon being in the seventh house, and somehow expect us to take this as proof in itself. .

Nope, I am simply faced by what is often the same (often inane) argument in different masks. Go check the first couple of posts on this topic if you do not believe me.

Many of the precepts informing your approach to this topic have been taken apart by myself and others

You assume insult to be the same as counter argument?

and, as I mentioned (and I loathe the fact that you force me to repeat myself as if to a slow schoolchild) you have signally failed to address the yawning gaps in your theory identified elsewhere,

Yawning gaps?

merely barreling on with the same tubthumpng and then crying threadrot when your failure is mentioned, interrupting your off-topic rambling about road accidents.

A question was raised and I responded. Please tell me oh wise haus what is the difference between thread rot and the evolution of a conversation?

In a sense, the sheer persistence demands a degree of admiration. Many people on this board and elsewhere want to change the world fundamentally to bring it into line with their beliefs. You, I believe, are the first person to want to change it fundamentally to bring it into line with your *hobbies*. A day of "woodlore", a couple of pints of locally-produced real ale, and perhaps the opportunity to use those melee weapons you enjoy playing with so much at the Special Sealed Knot, but on real paupers. Beautiful. I want more pool tables, damn it. More pool tables now! I like pool, and I believe that with more pool tables there would be no war, disease or poverty.

Ah, the assumption that caricature is counter-argument once more. Let us have more of your jests sir, they distract us mightily.

Meanwhile, we seem to be overlooking the fact that one of the behaviours that would be required would be the happy excision of (at a guess, as you have never managed to propose a coherent figure) 50 million inhabitants of the British Isles. How would we go about that? and what would EDUCATION teach us about immigration? And why am I still bothering? How huge is my faith in human nature? Inquiring minds need to know...

Why put them all to the sword good sir, starting with your goodself to let forth ever more amounts of flatulence from your majestic windfilledness.

I have yet to hear you offer a statement of what YOU would like to do (other than shouting down others). Would you care to put forward your own approach to govt/population/crime/injustice so that we can at least compare (or are you limited to criticism like the court jester you appear to be)? Stand back folks, give the man some space, I do believe haus may be about to say something of his own rather than one of his perpetual “attacks”. Well, I can hope.

Incidentally; what, pray tell, is the difference between the consistent and the repetitious?
 
 
Ganesh
13:48 / 30.04.03
Find out for myself? Nahhh, Leap, the onus here is on you, as advancer of a given hypothesis to prove it, rather than me to disprove it.

Your summary of karma is a somewhat simplistic, rather Western-tinged one, but I'm not about to argue it with you. I can't, on a quick Google search, find any literature pertaining to the FAE differences between individualist and collectivist societies, so it remains a rather speculative point.

Wrenching the thread back on topic, Quantum made comment on the fact that advertising is perhaps furthest advanced in terms of the various tricks of mass-market persuasion, 'stickiness' or otherwise. He made the quite valid point that, in appropriating such methods in the service of EDUCATION (that is, the mass propagation of... what? specifically irresistable information? instruction? "reason"? "dignity"?) in order that a sufficiently "free" (in an individualist sense) society might be sustained, the "freedom" of that society is, perhaps, inherently threatened. One wonders, for a start, whether those doing the EDUCATING constitute an "elite"...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:02 / 30.04.03
Simply put, and it looks like it had better be, consistency is advancing and elaborating through argument upon a set of principles or theses without alteration of the core theses, or with alteration of the core theses only accroding to a comprehensible process of explanation and discussion.

Repetition is using the same words or phrases over and over again *instead* of argument, explanation or discussion. And, as I am once again forced to explain to the slow boy, the many criticisms of your genocidal wonderland in various other threads have yet to be answered, and there is no suggestion that they will be, because - guess what - you repeat the same phrases mantrically rather than actuially talk about them. I'm very glad you have your magic formula for solving all the world's ills, Leapy, but it isn't enough. You have to be able to explain, defend and indeed understand it, otherwise eventually people get bored of trying to get some sense out of you.
 
 
Leap
14:35 / 30.04.03
Ganesh –

Find out for myself? Nahhh, Leap, the onus here is on you, as advancer of a given hypothesis to prove it, rather than me to disprove it.

Prove or spoonfeed? I have sited the general location of such data – it is up to you to actually go get it (or do you expect a bibliography?!).

Wrenching the thread back on topic,

Excellent idea. My apologies for the thread rot.

Quantum made comment on the fact that advertising is perhaps furthest advanced in terms of the various tricks of mass-market persuasion, 'stickiness' or otherwise. He made the quite valid point that, in appropriating such methods in the service of EDUCATION (that is, the mass propagation of... what? specifically irresistible information? instruction? "reason"? "dignity"?) in order that a sufficiently "free" (in an individualist sense) society might be sustained, the "freedom" of that society is, perhaps, inherently threatened. One wonders, for a start, whether those doing the EDUCATING constitute an "elite"...

The measure is whether the education leads to a society that is LARGELY self supporting (unsupervised, unmanaged) and at its root embracing of egalitarianism, or one that LARGELY perpetuates an ongoing position of privilege for the mangers / police through the root embracing of elitism.

Is our society mostly regulated, policed, managed? Or is it largely devoid of such regulation, such policing, such managing, in favour of each person being largely autonomous and directly responsible? Are we now, to use the prisoner quote again and attract the wrath of haus (ooohhh the fear!), “pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered” like so much cattle, or are we free to live as men and women without in the main answering to some governing body?

I think it best to clarify a point here: note my use of the word “largely” and the phrase “in the main”. I do not suggest a life lived without ever answering to another, or seeking the wisdom of another, but I do say that we are suited to make our own way in the world…..in the main….(rather than be herded like cattle) and the education I speak of is of this fact and how to achieve it – an education that is simply teaching people about their freedom and how to maintain it.

Just as a child at birth must be pushed into the world, just as older children must often be pushed into doing something they do not recognise the wisdom of, so must a childish society be pushed to wisdom by those who recognise the need, so long as those who push that society, just like the GOOD parent, intend to direct the child they push become an adult, so that they may, once they become an adult, enter a society of equals, be able to judge using reason and historical precedent the value of what they have learned, and to be largely free of being herded like cattle. The bad parent is someone who wishes to keep the child as a child.

If that takes sticky advertising to make this move, so be it.

[ side note: I can remember a quote along the lines of “100 years ago most men in England could go through their lives never bumping into the state” (will someone please tell me who wrote that, I can never remember his name…I have paraphrased it rather than quote. I think he was a socialist[(hey, no-one is perfect! ]].

Haus –

your genocidal wonderland

So let us here your idea of what is best Haus, assuming you have one?!
 
 
Ganesh
14:48 / 30.04.03
I expect you to prove your hypothesis before I will begin to accept it. If you can do nothing more, in terms of evidencing your viewpoint, than wave vaguely in the direction of the Data Protection Act, then it won't be taken seriously by anyone.

Just how "self-supporting" and "embracing of egalitarianism" is "LARGELY"? 95% egalitarian? More? Less? Doesn't the fraction that's not egalitarian reflect the workings of an "elite", presumably the subgroup in charge of directing EDUCATION? Your "GOOD parent" analogy describes paternalism to a tee.
 
 
Quantum
14:48 / 30.04.03
"If that takes sticky advertising to make this move, so be it.

So you're saying it's acceptable to brainwash people into being free? the ends justify the means?
 
 
Quantum
14:50 / 30.04.03
...just a quick note to back up Leap, we really do have to follow the Data Protection Act, and it really is commuting ratrunners etc. he's not just palming us off.
 
 
Ganesh
14:56 / 30.04.03
You might also want to have a crack at defining "free to live as men and women". As far as I'm concerned, I live as the man I am, with rights and responsibilities to myself and the society I choose to inhabit. I'm happy with that, yes.
 
 
Smoothly
14:56 / 30.04.03
[Leap, to answer your plea - I think your "100 years ago..." quote comes from the introduction to AJP Taylor's English History 1914 - 1945.]
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:03 / 30.04.03
As far as I'm concerned, I live as the man I am, with rights and responsibilities to myself and the society I choose to inhabit. I'm happy with that, yes.

Youve been brainwashed, you see and are hopelessly dependent on the system that enslaves you. You don't have dignity and modesty and are patronised by a government that degrades you with, say, legal protection. Far better that you should be able to defend yourself from physical or verbal attack personally, with your melee weapons. Then you would be free. Can't you see it? Sorry, what I meant was !!??!!!!????
 
 
Ganesh
15:08 / 30.04.03
Perhaps I would feel more "free" or more "as a man" if I knew some notional minority of 'undignified' or 'immodest' people were being punished with starvation and death. Mmmm...
 
  

Page: 1(2)34

 
  
Add Your Reply