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Bush, where are those pesky NBC weapons?

 
  

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We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:03 / 09.06.03
I do think this is a problem if the plan is to fight terrorism in all its forms, but I also think that some terrorist organizations plainly are terrorist organizations, just as some wrong acts plainly are wrong acts.

Hah. Yes.

The trouble is that which acts are plainly wrong seems to depend on where you're standing.

As does which acts are terror and which are pre-emptive intervention or targeted police actions...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
20:01 / 09.06.03
I'm not clear on whether or not you personally believe Iraq had connections to terrorism. In case you do, it'll be necessary for you to demonstrate why, beings as no convincing connection has yet been revealed

SMatthewStolte: I would consider financial support for Palestinian suicide bombers to be a connection to terrorism.

I probably shouldn't post anything that includes the words 'Israel' 'America' 'funds' 'pot' and 'kettle' and 'he with all the gold makes all the rules' should I?
 
 
Lurid Archive
20:34 / 09.06.03
I would consider financial support for Palestinian suicide bombers to be a connection to terrorism

But surely the funding of terrorist groups is not sufficient reason to invade a country and engage in regime change, is it? Perhaps it is sufficient if we are talking about a disobedient, weakened country with large oil reserves.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
21:09 / 09.06.03
It is a bit of a hypocritical position for the US regime to take, given their previous tacit support of NORAID, not to mention numerous instances where they (the US administration at any given time, pretty much) have provided arms, training, financial support etc. for groups which have subsequently been denounced (often by the US administration) as terrorists, despots, etc. I assume that SMatthew would count that sort of thing as a proven link to terrorists. Btw SM, I am in no way trying to suggest that you personally support terrorism in any form whatsoever - just that no one in this game is squeaky clean - cf the apparent willingness of the current US government to support the Mujahedeen e-Khalq in Iran, despite their having been supported by Saddam Hussein and their status (according to the State Department) as a terrorist group. I don't think anyone is really trying to play the moral argument against terrorism card any more - except possibly dere Tony - and I think that the US admin is being pretty blatant about the motives behind its policies.

BTW - this article from the IHT covers the nuclear plant which was looted - not by terrorists, but its vulnerability does suggest that securing nuclear facilities against the possibility of looting by terrorists was not high on the coalition agenda (to say the least).

As for Wolfowitz, I wouldn't trust him to have an ethical foreign policy (hollow laughter) as far as I could throw him, and for that reason I would be inclined to examine any statement he makes. I don't think any statesman/woman or politician should get away with having his or her statements taken on trust.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
21:11 / 09.06.03
I probably shouldn't post anything that includes the words 'Israel' 'America' 'funds' 'pot' and 'kettle' and 'he with all the gold makes all the rules' should I?

No. And under no circumstances should you observe that only one country has ever been censured for sponsoring terror by the World Court.

And if you were naughty enough to say that, you surely would not mention that it was the US in relation to Nicaragua.

(I just love paralepses.)
 
 
Olulabelle
09:12 / 11.06.03
[Minor threadrot]

I met a woman who worked for congress doing a very highly paid and powerful job writing bills and things (not very up on the American Political system, sorry) and when Bush got into power she left the country. Jacked in her job in congress and isn't going back until Bush is gone.

[End minor threadrot]
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:27 / 11.06.03
[ more threadrot ]
Could someone forward this to Paul Daniels and Phil Collins please? They both promised to leave in '97 if Labour won the election and I'm still waiting...

[ /morethreadrot ]
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:16 / 17.06.03
Phil Collins moved to Switzerland some time ago. Paul Daniels lives in a big fucking house in Thameside. Bobby Davro - who can say?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:09 / 17.06.03
[sorry: back to threadrot] Apparently the Swiss government had to put out a press release saying that Phil Collins wasn't a child molester- their version of Operation Ore was called Operation Genesis and all manner of rumours sprang up... if you didn't know that, but lived in Switzerland, wouldn't the phrase "methinks the lady..."etc would have occurred? Nah, I don't believe he's a nonce. Nor even a lizard. Funny story, though. [exit threadrot... nothing to see here... move along...]
 
 
_Boboss
07:22 / 04.07.03
oop! tee hee hee:

http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
 
 
GreenMann
09:31 / 04.07.03
Last April, during the worldwide mass demos against the war on Iraq, I thought that once most people realised that there never was any WMD threat that the cat would be out of the bag and Blair+Bush (B&B) would be exposed as war-criminals, going to "war" (in reality a massacre of thousands of innocent Iraqis, most of them women+kids) against a sovereign country without any justification under international or national law.

Let's face it, US neocons have never hidden their Mid-East agenda which has openly been control over oil and better security for Israel in the region. The "New American Century" policy spells this out in black and white.

But, unfortunately, it seems that most people will put up with pretty much anything, any amount of lies, no end of omissions, censorship and bullshit - even the most far-out and ridiculous excuses from the now hated class of discredited politicians, journalists and other chancers.

What can we do? Have another march of 2m people? I guess i can't see the peace wood for the lying trees this morning...can anyone restore my faith in humanity?
 
 
Salamander
10:24 / 04.07.03
No faith
 
 
Francine I
01:48 / 07.07.03

SMS: "I don't want to get into the different definitions of terrorism right now, except to acknowledge that it is often unclear precisely what is meant by it. I do think this is a problem if the plan is to fight terrorism in all its forms, but I also think that some terrorist organizations plainly are terrorist organizations, just as some wrong acts plainly are wrong acts."

But these definitions of terrorism and wrong acts are precisely the matter, here.

Others have demonstrated soundly why there is an issue with this justification for invading and occupying Iraq. But, for the sake of response, I'll say my bit -- though I doubt I'll manage to be nearly so succinct as Nick and others who have answered your points.

Nick points out quite prudently that the U.S. is the only nation in history roundly condemned by the World Court. Our very own Mr. Kissinger was a sweet deal, indeed; brokering genocide (or ethnic cleansing, if you prefer) here and there to make a buck, the way I hear it. Indonesia and East Timor. U.S. weapons, U.S. supplies, no U.S. condemnation. Lip service to the tragedy at best -- the U.S. took no responsibility, saw no wrong. At least, not while actual people were actually dying in large numbers. Sort of like Israel today.

As far as terrorist organisations and ultimate wrongs go -- No. There are none of those. Not ones that are conveniently available and obvious to humanity en masse, at least. If there were, there probably wouldn't be "terrorists". These people aren't blowing up embassies in the name of universal wrongdoing -- they're doing it for "The Cause".

From the standpoint of relative morality, it is certainly questionable to suggest that the U.S. has the right to invade and occupy Iraq under the pretense of stemming terrorism. This action is almost certain to inspire funding and recruiting for just about any group advertising a jihad against the U.S. invaders. Impoverished extremists do extreme things with simple methodologies, which is essentially what the Bush administration would like to cram under the definition of "terrorism".

This rationale for war is irrational, the definition for terrorism too broad, and the things being done under the header of said rationale and said definition are so far ridiculous in the extreme.

Attacking a primarily civilian populace with an atom bomb fits the definition of terrorism in accordance with general consensus quite adequately, however. So does the utilization of cluster bombs. So should the practice of starving a nation silly before actually invading it -- in essence, weakening the populace in order to, in turn, destablize the government.

You and I may agree in the abstract -- that murdering non-military personnel is wrong -- but how many Americans do you know who will bring themselves to reconsider the moral conclusions that led to the nuclear conflagrations of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Who precisely was Iraq funding? Hamas? The PLO? Both of these groups have been referred to as unequivocally "terrorist" in nature. In Palestine, in much of the Arab world, and even in Europe, many aren't so sure who is and is not a "terrorist". In fact, it is no matter of moral clarity to discern Palestinian "terrorists" from Palestinian "freedom fighters", to most. At times, Israel can't seem to discern between a Palestinian "terrorist" and the uninvolved family of said terrorist. I suppose there are many eyes beholding.

Let's say that terrorism means the deliberate exploitation of what the U.S. calls "soft targets" -- non-military targets which the aggressor feels are somehow critical to the execution of the campaign in question. Terrorism, then, is not solely the province of a stateless force. Terrorism is just another tactic in the field manual for many industrialized nations.

The preceding view of terrorism is closer to historical and international precedent than the sort of political-pop idea of terrorism being applied by the Bush administration.

So under this definition, the U.S. and Israel share responsibility for more terrorist atrocity than any state or non-state since World War II. Under this flagship, is the free world (or maybe just the U.S.) supposed to march merrily into Iraq and beyond, dragging the not-so-free world along with it? Where's the moral clarity here? It is therefore futile, in my mind, to fight *actual* terrorism without condemning U.S. interventionism and U.S. imperialism -- both major contributors and instigators of what we call "terrorism". And if we truly do condemn these two behaviours, then the U.S. must not be allowed to behave like an unruly bully in the schoolyard who's just taken his first punch.

It's counterproductive -- unless the U.S. is just looking for an excuse to grab some land and oil; kick up the value of the dollar. Prevent OPEC from trading in euros. Monopolize the distribution of weapons to restrict the vectors of force to those who the U.S. can bully economically... Which is exactly what the invasion and occupation of Iraq appears to be, from the standpoint of many Iraqis.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
21:19 / 09.07.03
Breaking News:

WoMD not likely to be found in Iraq.

Senior Whitehall sources are being quoted as having said they no longer believe weapons will be found, although they insist they did believe in WoMD at the time we went to war.

Blair has reiterated his position that evidence of 'programmes' will be found - but that's not the basis in which we went to war.
 
 
GreenMann
19:52 / 12.07.03
Blair continues to lie through his teeth for his master Bush (just WHAT is he, or we, getting out of this sycophantic relationship?).

Blair, the super confidence-trickster has told so many whoppers now that i'm losing count (e.g. no 2nd UN resolution = no war on Iraq;
no WMDs = no war on Iraq).

No-one on earth seems to be able to successfully challenge him, so forceful and clever are his arguments, complete with quivering lip, that, even if they are based on the flimsiest of 'evidence' or blatently invented ridiculous stories which even the US is embarassed about, Blair just seems to get away with it every time.

Blair really could argue his way out of a paper bag!

I want him as my lawyer!
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:28 / 14.07.03
GreenMann, you ask for someone to restore your faith in humanity, I can't do that for you, all I can say is that you keep struggling, everytime you see shit you call somebody on it, and if just one person who wasn't bothered enough to do something is inspired enough by seeing you to do something, that's all you can hope for.
 
 
Salamander
19:37 / 14.07.03
Here is a good article on the Iraq issue that may throw some light on the situation with WMD's and why there aren't any.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:51 / 23.07.03
I assume that the deaths of Uday and Qusay will help to direct attention away from the lack of weapons found in Iraq. Every day, almost, seems to bring a new story about Bush issuing 'strong warnings' to various countries in the Middle East.
 
 
Salamander
12:32 / 23.07.03
yes, and everyday Bush dodges having to answer up to his lies, everyone takes the blame but him, isn't that convieniant?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:42 / 11.08.04
Well, we can probably scratch out the N once and for all...

The head of Iraq's nuclear programme under Saddam Hussein has said Iraq destroyed its nuclear weapons programme in 1991 and never restarted it.

And I'm watching the interview with the guy on Newsnight, he's saying that the chemical and biological weapons programs were also destroyed in '91 and not restarted either.
 
  

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