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Dragons

 
  

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illmatic
21:46 / 14.04.03
And though I came to regret or forget all I had ever done, yet I would remember that once I saw dragons aloft on the wind at sunset, above the Western isles; and I would be content.
That quote is taken from the marvellous "The Furthest Shore" by Ursula le Guin, which is, I feel, possibly the best book ever written. Anyway, let's not argue about that here, but reading this sparked my interest - where can the idea of dragons have come from? Why do we have this powerful and compelling image spread across so many cultures? I'm tempted to say, its a folk menory of dinosaurs - only they were around seveeal millon years before we |(as in mammals) were any bigger than rats. Why this strange idea, what is the origin of the legends or meaning of gigantic reptiles with gigantic wings spitting fire everywhere? Why are they there, why do we have these stories, besides the fact they're cool as fuck. Answers, please...

And I think we can expand this thread, to be a home to any cool dragon related stories, sites or other giant fire-breathing reptilian business...
 
 
cusm
21:53 / 14.04.03
Aah, Earthsea. Marvelous stuff, that. Don't ever read the 4th book if you want to continue enjoying the others.

But as for Dragons, I wonder if this is evidence of genetic memory?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:18 / 14.04.03
Maybe people dug dinosaur bones up from the earth and began to create stories around them. Fire breathing would make some kind of sense because fire was so culturally important- I think we forget because we have central heating and cookers and electricity but prior to these things fire was such a necessity that the very concept of having it turned against you... it would make sense!

Of course I want dragons to be real so maybe I'll just carefully forget reason and say it was because George killed one!!!
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
23:09 / 14.04.03
cusm - The Other Wind redeems it, I promise. It's not The Farthest Shore, but then what is?

This is Borges on dragons: '...there is something in the dragon's image that appeals to the human imagination... It is, so to speak, a necessary monster, not an ephemeral or accidental one, such as the three-headed chimera or the catoblepas.'

I don't really buy the genetic memory business (yet); but I do think it might be a sort of extended folk memory, of large lizards such as monitor lizards, or perhaps even crocodiles, which has become transformed over millennia into the idea of a monstrous reptile in much the same way that the idea of the unicorn might come from a bizarre mingling of reports of rhinos and antelope from the Near and Middle East.

It's harder to explain the appeal - perhaps Borges is right about the dragon being a necessary monster; perhaps it has something to do with the rather alien nature of reptiles (when seen through human eyes, hello Mr Icke) - maybe they have an attraction because they are slightly unapproachable and incomprehensible; and rather startling. And sometimes dangerous.

But isn't it true that Chinese dragons are very different in nature? I have a book about this at home, I'll have to dig it out next weekend and have a look.
 
 
Olulabelle
23:10 / 14.04.03
Random slightly relevant fact: The Komodo dragon is the largest known type of lizard, reaching up to 10 feet in length and weighing up to 150 pounds. (Fairly big.)

It has a bright yellow tongue which I imagine could be mistaken for a flame, and it's supposed to be fairly scary.
 
 
The Jungle Keeper's Old Smoky Pipe, Haunted by The Black Dog Spirit
23:44 / 14.04.03
Don't forget the chinese dragon, considered the perfect being. It's the union of nine animals having a head like a camel's, horns like a deer's, eyes like a hare's, ears like a bull's, a neck like an iguana's, a belly like a frog's, scales like a carp's, paws like a tiger's, and claws like an eagle's.

And there's aldo nine types of dragon, each one with it's own special powers. They were worshiped and not feared, like their western brothers. In Brazil, among the natives, we have the Boitatá, a fire breather giant snake, protector of the jungle.

So I don't think some kind of dinossaur dug up bone would create such wonderful creatures... maybe so kind of shamanic manifestation???
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
23:55 / 14.04.03
It's the union of nine animals having a head like a camel's, horns like a deer's, eyes like a hare's, ears like a bull's, a neck like an iguana's, a belly like a frog's, scales like a carp's, paws like a tiger's, and claws like an eagle's.

Ah, thank you. Sounds rather like the Questing Beast - does it make a noise in its belly like thirty couple of hounds by any chance? (sorry, bad Malory joke - well, it is late...)
 
 
kaonashi
00:12 / 15.04.03
Well if the earth is only about ten thousand years old then its perfectly possible that human cultures have memories of dinosaurs. You see how this all works out? After the Great Flood of Noah the dinosaurs died out slowly because of massive climatic changes. Thats why all human cultures share similar myths. Right. That is if you buy that the universe was created in seven days by Yahweh. An interesting side note, in some creationism for kids books its asserted that the one of the duck billed dinosaurs might have had primitive combustible acids stored in its head.
Check it out.

Creationists live in a much stranger and deeply imaginative world than your average heretical joe.
 
 
grant
02:37 / 15.04.03
There was a great book that came out in the early 80s - after the "Gnomes" book opened the door to "Fairies" and "Giants" - called The Flight of Dragons. It was a semi-natural history, like the others, but unlike the others, it started from what seemed like pretty sound science.

Dragons. They're big lizards that fly and breathe fire and have corrosive blood and can hypnotize the unprepared. Evolutionarily, that's a tall order - four qualities as separated as that. Unless they're all related to one central adaptation: using hydrochloric acid (what's in all beasties' stomachs) to dissolve bone mass (rich in calcium!) and create hydrogen gas.

The fire-breath was just venting hydrogen. They had to be big to fly - like zeppelins. The "blood" was the hydrochloric acid. The bodies are light and ill-defended, except for the armored face, which is designed to (hypnotically) draw attacks to it, like the eyespots on butterfly wings. And we never find any dragon bones because when one dies, the acid takes the bones with it.

It makes sense. You know it does.
 
 
mixmage
03:11 / 15.04.03
A little barbarchaeology reveals this related discussion.
 
 
mixmage
03:22 / 15.04.03
... and this
 
 
Quantum
10:15 / 15.04.03
I think we have memories of Dragons because there were Dragons.

(I have loved the Earthsea trilogy for twenty years, and am very wary about the new ones- haven't read them in case they spoil the trilogy, but maybe I will now...)
 
 
Leap
10:30 / 15.04.03
What are the earliest recorded mentions of dragons (in europe)?
 
 
The Jungle Keeper's Old Smoky Pipe, Haunted by The Black Dog Spirit
12:33 / 15.04.03
well, Bruce Lee was a dragon...
 
 
Leap
12:57 / 15.04.03
[sound of head hitting desk]
 
 
mixmage
15:17 / 15.04.03
Look before you Leap!

Siu Lung means "Little Dragon" in Cantonese - Bruce's nickname.

In the story of how the animals got their years in the Chinese calendar, the Rat won first place. Anyone would have put their money on the Dragon, but ze does things in hir own sweet time: Accolades are meaningless to one of such awesome scope.

In both western and eastern traditions, hills and mountains have been seen as dragons. In Hong Kong, I remember going past an appartment tower on a hillside that slopes to a bay [whose name i cannot remember] and asking why a four story circular hole was gaping right through it about halfway up... "contemporary architecture?" I asked.
"No... it's so the dragon can come down to drink in the bay"
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
19:33 / 15.04.03
A few snippets about dragons from Brewer's:

'The Greek word drakon is related to drakos, 'eye', and in classical legend the idea of watching is retained in the story of the dragon who guards the golden apples in the Garden of the Hesperides, and in the story of Cadmus... In the Middle Ages the owrd was the symbol of sin in general and paganism in particular, the metaphor being derived from Revelation 12:9, where Satan is termed both 'the great dragon' and 'that old serpent', and from Psalm 91:13, where it is said 'the dragon shalt thou trample under feet. Hence, in Christian art it has the same significance.
'Among the many saints usually pictured slaying dragons are St Michael, St George, St Margaret, St Samson, archbishop of Dol, St Clement of Metz, St Romain of Rouen, destroyer of the great dragon La Gargouille, which ravaged the Seine, St Philip the Apostle, St Martha, slayer of the terrible dragon Tarasque, St Florent, who killed a dragon which haunted the Loire, St Cado, St Maudet, and St Pol... and St Keyne of Cornwall.
'Among the ancient Britons and the Welsh the dragon was the national symbol on the war standard. Hence the term Pendragon for the dux bellorum, or leader in war.
'Dragon Hill A site southeast of Faringdon, Oxon. (formerly Berks.) where local legend claims St George killed the dragon.
'The Dragon of Wantley. An old story, preserved in Percy's Reliques (1765) tells of this monster who was slain by More of More Hall. He procured a suit of armour studded with spikes and kicked the dragon in the backside, where alone it was vulnerable.
'Dragon's Blood An old name in pharmacy for the resin from certain plants, formerly used in certain preparations. The East Indian Palm (Calamus draco) is used as a colouring matter for artists' varnishes.
'In German legend, when Siegfried was told to bathe in the blood of a dragon in order to make him immune from injury, a linden leaf fell on him and the place it covered remained vulnerable...'

'A flying dragon A meteor.'

'Red dragon Anciently the badge of the Parthians, it was introduced in Britain by the Romans. In the 7th century it became the standard of King Cadwaladr and later was one of the supporters of the Tudor arms.'

'To sow dragons' teeth To foment contentions; to stir up strife or war, or specifically to do something that is intended to bring an end to strife but that actually brings it about. The reference is to the classical story of Cadmus [ed: Cadmus killed the dragon guarding Dirce's fountain in Boeotia and sowed it's teeth, from which sprang a group of armed warriors who meant to kill him]'

More if I find anything...
 
 
Sebastian
19:52 / 15.04.03
Precisely the other day, as I felt a coincidental renewed interest in Dragons stirring through my innards, I hit on the On-line Ritual Book of the Clan Of The Dragon. I just couldn't miss the simple, candid rhyme:

Dragons of power, Dragons of Light,
Dragons of wisdom, Dragons of Might,


Also, at Neldoreth's Creatures of Middle-Earth, there is a very nice description of Dragons as I have never pictured them before (if you scroll down the page through other creatures):

"The Dragons fondness for word-games, riddles, and other contest of the mind is legendary. All Drakes enjoy using their intellectual prowess. Puzzles and riddles fascinate them. They are skilled in myriad tongues and capable of conversing and word-dueling in many languages. Their wicked eyes, audacious presence, incredible vocal-strenght, and perceptive ways make them formidable (if not overwhelming) foes in a debate. [...] A Dragon will toy with a foe whose soothing words are effectively delivered far longer than he will tolerate a pugnacious adversary. To a Drake, a false flatterer is wise and an armed challenger is simply foolhardy fodder."

Hail to the Dragons of Legend and Lore...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
20:29 / 15.04.03
They're everywhere!

Rankle: (apparently) from French rancle or raoncle, a variant of draoncle, 'festering sore', from Latin dracunculus, a small dragon.

Oolong: from Chinese wu 'black' and long 'dragon'.

Apparently there was a burlesque opera written about the Dragon of Wantley - wonder if I can find a libretto...

The Vishap - in Armenian mythology, a dragon. 'The Armenians were particularly afraid of dragons and believed that a number of them lived on the volcanic Mount Massis (Ararat).' (Hutchinson Encyclopaedia)

Not forgetting the constellation Draco. Or firedrakes and drakes in general. Or Marduk defeating the dragon Tiamat (parallel with Leviathan?). The dragon Vritra was killed by Indra and thus the universe was created.

[crib to reel thorts: I should have been an antiquary...
 
 
Salamander
21:38 / 15.04.03
Serpents have always been a glyph of life. In the Occident they were demonized because of the garden of eden myth, that serpent had legs too, then yhvh took them away, stupid yhvh.
 
 
penitentvandal
08:54 / 16.04.03
Stupid, stupid god creatures! <:P>

My home town, Washington (Tyne & Wear, oop North - not the one across the pond with all the big white buildings), has its own dragon myth, which seems to be a variant of Kit-kat's 'Dragon of Wantley' story. Very briefly -

1) Annoying son of local lord, Lord Lambton, goes fishing, catches nothing, throws his worm (used as bait) in well in disgust
2) Annoying brat grows older, goes off to indulge in the culturally sanctioned genocide of the Crusades
3) Meanwhile, discarded worm has grown to draconian proportions and set about killing local livestock. Like worms, if you chop a bit off it, it regenerates. Much weeping and gnashing of teeth on part of good burghers of Olde Washington.
4) Little Lord Lambton gets back from his Muslim-killing jamboree, looking forward to pints of mead and frolicking with local wenches. Instead, he is promptly ordered by the villagers to go and sort out this Lambton Worm thing, sharp-like.
5) After an initial loss, Young Lambton thinks up the spiked armour ploy, which prevents the bits of the worm rejoining the rest of its body. Unlike the guy in the Dragon of Wantley myth, though, he does not literally kick its arse, knightly honour presumably preventing this. Afterwards, one imagines, mead-quaffing and wenching ensue as planned.

I always take this myth - and the St George one - as a myth of the forces of paganism being driven out by Christian conquerors. Like the one about St Patrick driving all the snakes out of Ireland. Most of the sites in Washington which are associated with the wyrm are also former sites of pagan ritual - make of that what you will. Of course, it needn't be said that these days, the wyrm is much more powerful in the local imagination than the memory of the knight in the story.

Before you ask, yes, I have invoked it on occassion...

There's a ballad about the wyrm, incidentally, sung in local dialect. I think the Pogues recorded a version - fictionalised to 'The D'Ampton Worm' - on the soundtrack to Lair of the White Worm , which draws heavily on the Lambton Worm legend, among other things.
 
 
Zhi
08:56 / 16.04.03
i love dragons.

I saw one in london once but cant say where - they're there if you look! actually it was more like a naga, but i guess thats a kind of dragon.

I've always hatted st george for killing the dragon. Perhaps its an excellent way of showing how christianity destroyed our cultures inner scaley core - passion, imagination, freedom, wisdom....

thats why the dragon appeals we're trying to get back that which we lost.

In earthsea if i remember it correctly Ged had to beat the dragon by becoming one, through shape shifting if i'm not mistaken, he killed the dragons sons and then by rightly knowing the dragons name he was able to strike a bargin with it. He'd also learnt to speak the old tounge the one that is as old as time which dragons spoke.

Theres lots of intresting bits of info about dragons in chapeter five of a wizard of earthsea.

'The hunger of a dragon is slow to wake, but hard to sate.'

I also found this in flowers - Hermetic Magic,

'In th ancient Greek sources Typhon is refered to as a drakon (dragon), although he is more of a large reptile. His shape is described as being rather amorphos - with reptilian parts of shinning rd and green colours, along with wings and parts of other beasts.Some give him the head of an ass................To the Greeks Typhon was a figure of cosmic rebellion, though his link with the chthonic (subterranean) realm also connects him with the prophetic power of the Python............his burning passions and fiery nature seem to be the energy from which the magical power to effect the will of the magician is drawn.' (pp94, Flowers S., Hermetic Magic, Weiser, 1995)
 
 
A
14:02 / 16.04.03
Okay, dragons seem to feature quite prominently in European and Asian mythology, and I can think of a few elements of Australian Aboriginal mythology that could conceivably be considered to be somewhat similar to dragons (bunyips and rainbow serpents, to begin with). Does anyone know if dragons, or something similar, feature at all in mythology from other areas, particularly Africa and the Americas?
 
 
Sebastian
14:16 / 16.04.03
I'd love to know about an American Dragon, and African ones also, please...

On the other hand, has anybody here made workings with Dragons??

Oh, and go see that movie, Dragon Heart, quite enjoyable in most aspects.
 
 
Quantum
15:07 / 16.04.03
The Quetzcoatl, winged serpent (who often breathes fire) is prominant in south american legend, Native American myths feature giant serpents who shape the hills (I think) African myths don't have an equivalent as far as I'm aware.
 
 
mixmage
15:19 / 16.04.03
"Whisht, Lads, ha'ad ya gobs an' aa'l tell yuz aall an aaful storee,
Whisht, Lads, ha'ad ya gobs an' aa'l tell ya'boot the Warm"

Love it! Grew up singin' it and "Bleeadon Reeaces".

VV - he catched the queer fish. The Worm is more an eel that takes the bait, rather than the bait itself. Kinda similar to Thor's fishing escapade, but on a smaller scale.

Seems there was a price, though. In the un-sung version, the deal is that he must sacrifice the first living thing to greet him on his return hyem. As he is crossing the moat to his stronghold, Brave Sir John's young daughter comes running out to welcome her conquering hero home alive. Holding fast to his end of the deal, he draws his sword with heavy heart, but, at the last moment, she is overtaken by his favourite hound - whom he dispatches before gathering his daughter up in his arms and crossing the threshold.
 
 
mixmage
15:47 / 16.04.03
Not "winged", rather "feathered"... Quetzalcoatl reminds me of the evolution from reptile to bird.
The parallel tale of Viracocha gives me the dreamy notion of Norse clinker-built ships and their Dragonhead prows. [The basic design mirrors boats found in Egypt and reed craft at Lake Titicaca - "fingerprints" of a lost, seafaring civilization?].

My final resonance, half-formed and shaky, is that the serpent is a symbol of Time... the slaying of the worldserpent/dragon being some kind of key to eternity. At the very least, it's immolation ensures the slayer a seat in history.
 
 
mixmage
15:51 / 16.04.03
Count Adam... tell me about the Lizard Dreaming.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
20:11 / 16.04.03
[Incidentally, The Other Wind is out in pb now - saw it with a pound off in Blackwell's if anyone's interested]
 
 
cusm
20:29 / 17.04.03
On the other hand, has anybody here made workings with Dragons??

You betcha. One item of note, I've found that the easiest form for elemental energy to take when coaxed into consciousness is that of the dragon. Possibly due to the primordial nature of dragons, or my general affinity with them, its hard to say on that front.
 
 
Hieronymus
21:13 / 17.04.03
A nice little repository.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:27 / 20.04.03
I can't let this topic alone...

You may or may not be interested to know that the heraldic dragon, when blazoned 'proper' (i.e. in its natural appearance) is depicted as being green, with a red underbelly and red claws and tongue.

I've found my Encyclopaedia of Monsters and wish I could summon up the energy to transcribe the entire entry, but I had rather a large lunch so I won't... it does, however, state categorically that 'there is no authentic connection between dinosaurs and dragons' (for what any categorical statement's worth in such matters...). It does, however, give an account of the apparent origins of the idea of the dragon, saying that it originated in exaggerated reports of large snakes, probably pythons, which attacked elephants - c.f. Edward Topsell (1608), translating Gesner:

'They [the dragons] hide themselves in trees, covering their head and letting the other part hang down like a rope. In those trees they watch until the Elephant comes to eat and croppe of the branches; then suddenyl, beofre he be aware, they leape into his face and digge out his eyes. Then doe they claspe themselves about his necke, and with their tayles or hinder parts, beate and vexe the Elephant untill they have made him breathlesse, for they strangle him with theyr fore parts as they beat him with the hinder... And this is the disposition of the Dragon that he never setteth upon the Elephant but with the advantage of the place, and namely from some high tree or rock.'

It says it's unclear how the dragon acquiredits legs, wings, ability to breathe fire, etc. - 'They seem ot have been added bit by bit over the centuries by people who thought that a simple snake, no matter how large, was not a sufficinet symbol of pure evil.' But the belief that a dragon was more than just as snake was reinforced by mediaeval forgers who pieced together parts of different animals to make monsters (you know the sort of thing, you can still see them in old cabinets of curiosities and so on). and constructed baby dragons (they had to be passed off as babies because of their small size). Apparently (it says here) 's group of fourteenth-century monks, trying to attract pilgrims to their monastery, sewed seven weasels' heads onto a snake's body and displayed the result as the seven-headed dragon of the Apocalypse.'

It does, however, suggest, that finds of gigantic bones belonging ot extinct mammals may well have fuelled dragon legends in Europe - this is how Athanasius Kircher developed his theory that dragons had lived underground - because their remains were usually found there rather than on the surface.

This particular book decries the idea that the Chinese and Western dragons have any similarity beyond the theory that they probably both originated in reports of large reptiles (it suggests the Chinese alligator, as the Chinese dragon is associated with water) and was subsequently influenced by other factors, including again the discovery of the bones of extinct animals. When Westerners saw depictions of the Chinese lung, they associated it with what they called the dragon, and called it so, hence a dregree of mistaken identification.

I have to say that this seems a little unsatisfactory as it doesn't really account for the degree of power which the idea of the dragon (or large and powerful creature with a reptilian aspect) holds in both cultures, or the existence of dragons in other cultures. Perhaps it's a relatively simple matter of respect being accorded to a large and fierce predatory creature, and elaborated from that point?
 
 
illmatic
15:30 / 20.04.03
Related to this perhaps is this quote from Austin Spare.

Know the sub-conciousness to be the epitome of all experience and wisdom, past incarnations as men, animal, birds, vegetable life etc etc. everything that exists, has and ever will exist. Each being a stratum in the order of evolution. Naturally the lower we probe these strata, the earlier will be the forms of life we arrive at; the last is the almighty simplicity. And if we suceed in awakening them, we shall gain their properties, and our accomplishment shall correspond....

This certainly suggests an occult mechanism for genetic memory, which kind of explains the dinosaur connection, though I don't think Nature are going to be peer-reviewing this idea anytime soon. I can see a lot of the more powerful "mythical" stuff inside us might suggest these kind of forms when expressed - bodily energy in Indian Tantra is expressed as the Kundalini serpent, for instance. I thought this was because of it's undulating quality, but maybe it's because of the suggestion of primal power....

I'd love to read more of your dragon workings, Cusm, if your prepared to post them in public.
 
 
cusm
18:38 / 20.04.03
I'm afriad they may be less interesting in post, as most were not the ritual sort that can be written up so much as direct energy work or internal fileing. When dealing with energy or elementals, I tend to see them as dragons. Similarly, invoking an energy type rather than a godform fetches me into a draconic mind, allowing a non-human experience of the energy itself. This works well done in trance dancing

I do use several for guardians of various sorts (defining their horde to be the object or person guarded) as a type of servitor formed from elemental energy. Dragons sit on hordes, making them natural guardians. Also, as they'll sleep unless disturbed, they don't require much maintenance. I have two types: those crafted as servitors with sigels stamped on them, and those tied to fettish objects (like lil statues and the like). Both fairly standard sorts of workings. In practice, the later sort are like Shinto Little House Gods, like the god/dragon of my weed box whose job it is to keep prying eyes and hands away from my stash
 
 
A
02:49 / 21.04.03
Count Adam... tell me about the Lizard Dreaming.

Alas, I don't really know much about it at all, just dimly-recalled memories from what I learned in school, which wasn't much, really. Maybe someone else around here might know more. Sorry.
 
  

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