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I want proof damit!

  
  

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LVX23
19:42 / 09.04.03
cusm, I've known others who've had similar group experiences, and I've been involved in a few of my own. Usually they tend to happen around groups of close friends who are eating a lot of pschedelics together and doing a lot of magick (soft or hard). Eventually things come to such a head that you see a real physical manifestation - like your pipe breaking. Note that in my own experiences and in those of friends I've known, this is often accompanied by flashes of light.

Among many smaller experiences, my original proof of this nature was with a group of close friends - we all had eaten an ayahuasca concoction brought down from Reed college. Huddled together on a couch listening to Blues For The Rainforest we started to have an incredible telepathic communion (note that harmaline was originally called telepathine). We all had our eyes closed, totally tuned in to the music and to eachother, going from complete silence to all of us exploding in laughter simulataneously over and over. It's hard to explain but it was like we were each probing into this communal mindspace and seeing eachother there, then acknowledging how amazingly cool and freaky it all was. The laughter would rise up as we were all recognizing the absolute unreality of the experience... Truly a profound night.

Not to be too cliche but, Magick Happens. When you really delve into it, the universe seems to have an uncanny way of playing along. Perhaps the idea of Truth or Proof is the confounding element in this discussion, as reality will prove itself to be much more malleable than we are conditioned to believe...
 
 
Professor Silly
20:43 / 09.04.03
While we're sharing:

I've had several experiences of telepathy with a close associate. Oddly, they all occured before we started studying magick. In each case I would have a thought, then he would answer as if I had asked outloud. From his perspective, he heard it with his ears. When I expressed surprise and mentioned that I hadn't used my voice, he shrugged it off--I don't think he believed me.
As I don't remember many time we spent time together and didn't smoke copious amounts of pot I would assume we were high...and while we weren't at that time we did trip a lot together back then....
 
 
Crimes_Of_Fashion
21:36 / 09.04.03
A someone who never really experimented much with magic beyond trying to pull lagomorphs from my hat as a kid, this thread reads like one of the random attacks from a born again I’m sure we've all experienced at least once by now.

If faith is the answer then magic is just as valid as faith healing, John Edward, or Government it's merely a focus that with enough belief one can convince oneself that it works...

Which it may do, but seeing the world through Hindu eyes you would believe it was a product Hinduism not magic if it happened.

And to be clear as possible you can replace 'Hindu' with any 'belief' you like.

Think, if a tree falls in the woods...

The concept of faith is a neurological loop because it denotes blind belief.

Or not, the proof is in the pudding, if theres and answer to 'prove it' then consider me converted..
 
 
Salamander
02:28 / 10.04.03
oh if only...
science is magick that you understand, if you understand magick, is it still magick, or is it just technology?
 
 
Quantum
09:39 / 10.04.03
Cusm- thank you for hitting the nail on the head as always. :-)

"Any technology sufficiently advanced will appear as magic" (Arthur C. Clarke)
Hermes- Technology is Magick, but Magick is not technology. For example, a mobile phone is technotelepathy but telepathic communication is not technology at all.
Miracles are magick where the magician is a priest and attributes the cause outside himself.

If Magick is proved it becomes mundane. The wonderful, magical feeling goes away and the thing becomes boring- like the novelty wearing off. What used to be amazing becomes pedestrian as people take it for granted, and magic retreats to the boundary of knowledge. (Hermes is the god of magic and boundaries and language for a reason)
 
 
Quantum
09:45 / 10.04.03
...and another anecdote.
My friend whilst a teenager had a terrible temper. One night during a blazing row with his parents he snapped and screamed atthem in pure rage, and every light in the house blew. All the bulbs shattered, house plunged into darkness, stopped the argument pretty quickly. And he wasn't (and isn't) into magic.
Weirdness abounds, how are you going to explain it without magic? Why would millions of very wise people throughout history (Caesar, Newton, Jung etc etc.) believe in it if it was a lie?
ALSO if you believe in science, recent breakthroughs in Quantum physics are discovering phenomenon on a micro level that back up magical principles. I think I'll start a thread on it...
 
 
Salamander
01:59 / 11.04.03
you make a good point, telepathy is no mare a technology than a laser beam, but what makes the laser beam? what makes the telepathy. we call it magick but the word has been so widely used and means so many different things that i wonder if it is even a useful word, what does it describe, what does it mean? we can quote definitions all night to JJ but i'm wondering if he's being helped. people have posted about experiments and science, but the purpose of theoretical and experimental science is to develope knowledge, technology is the application of knowledge. Hermes IS the god of language and magick and boundaries. he's also the god of thieves and merchants and jesters. magick, entheogenick technology, does the awe really go away with the switch? and as for your friend i don't know what to say, it was magick.
 
 
Quantum
09:23 / 11.04.03
The anecdote was for JJ really, as 'proof'.
A laser beam is a product of technology. Telepathy is not. One requires a tool (a laser gun) one doesn't (unless you consider your brain a tool). Technology is based on tools that anyone can use, Magick is based on understanding granted only to those who pursue it- you can't hand over your telepathic ability to someone else, you could hand over your laser gun to someone else.
Magick occupies the grey area between the light of knowledge and the darkness of ignorance. The more we light up, the more magick retreats- it exists on the boundary. (thieves and jesters operate at the boundaries of acceptable behaviour, Hermes blesses trade as a form of communication and exchange of knowledge IMO)
 
 
Leap
09:52 / 11.04.03
Quantum -

Do you find a sunrise a "mundane" thing?
 
 
Quantum
10:22 / 11.04.03
Sunrise and sunset, dawn and dusk, are the boundaries of day and night and thus ideal for magical purposes, and 'magical' (in the mundane sense! ) in their own right. Beauty is magical IMO as is courage, heroism, compassion etc.
What defines mundane is the way we feel about it. Eastenders is mundane to me for example.
 
 
Leap
10:26 / 11.04.03
Is comfort magical?
 
 
cusm
16:56 / 11.04.03
An interesting question. I wonder if comfort is actually more anti-magical? There is no personal change in that which is routine and ordinary, so mo magic found in comfort.
 
 
Leap
17:33 / 11.04.03
Cusm -

I would disagree; my family bring me comfort...and what is more magical than family ("Woof!") ;D
 
 
Salamander
04:24 / 15.04.03
I have a machine that given the appropriate:
1)Programing
2)Time
3)Tools
4)Energy
5)Materials

can produce anything, anything at all. It's machinary still remains obscure but to a few. The problem of proof lies in the word "IS". What "IS" magick? What "IS" proof? Intransitive verbs always confuse and mislead.
 
 
the rake at the gates
13:33 / 16.04.03
the whole point of this thread was because when i got into the occult/magic, it was because i saw grant morrison on disinfonation talking about sigils, this inspired me into sigiling, but my technique was to do dozens at a time and forgetting about them, so no concreate proof, then i tired various other techniques but never had a experience where something apeared to me or the effect of the spell or whatever was either powerful or fast acting, or even worked.
now, when grant morrison was talking he was really enthusiastic about magic, saying that if you do the things in crowley and co, things WILL happen, so rather than reading everything they wrote i thought, 'ah barbelith they'll have done some of this shit, if they belive in magic there must have been a point in their lives when something happen that proved to them magic worked'.
i mean anyone can go on the internet or write a book which says how to do magic with loads of get out clauses, 'you dont belive enough' or 'you must forget what you wished for' etc, so what i was after was something concrete, im not going to spend my hard earned cash or time on pointless candles and wands and practicing breathing and visualisation just because somone i've never met says that if i do it for 6months then something might happen, theres a difference between beliving in 'magic' and just being guliable
 
 
Quantum
15:19 / 16.04.03
Then make up your own magical path and don't be lazy. If you want tried and tested methods there are plenty of recommendations on the site (see the magickal bibliography for example) but they will all have 'get out clauses'.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:59 / 16.04.03
Honestly, you'll know when it works. I sure did. And yes, when it works, someone could say "Oh, that was just coincidence/your imgaination/you see what you want to see." But when it works and you have some faith and some good instincts, you'll just KNOW it worked.

Like Grant Morrison says in THE INVISIBLES - "It's always a bit of a shock when it actually WORKS, isn't it?"
 
 
Salamander
18:55 / 16.04.03
yes, if you don't press the buttons on the machine, it ainta'goaana werk. and ifin it did, unless you wuz tryin, it probably waznt u! If you really want magick to work, then put some effort into it. Remember: garbage in, garbage out.
 
 
EvskiG
20:43 / 16.04.03
Here's a quick and easy way to get started.

Get Robert Anton Wilson's book "Prometheus Rising." It has a bunch of short chapters with exercises. Yes, the writing might seem corny, and the illustrations are pathetic. Never mind.

Do the exercises, starting with the quarter exercise. Seriously. Think about the results. As others have suggested, get a copy of the I Ching or a tarot deck and start doing readings. Seriously.

Grab a notebook and start writing down your thoughts after doing the exercises and tarot/I Ching readings. Keep thinking, and writing.

Do this for a month. Consider whether anything interesting happened. If not, forget about magic for the time being.

If anything interesting happened, though, or you're still curious, buy Robert Anton Wilson's "Cosmic Trigger," Donald Michael Kraig's "Modern Magic," Phil Hine's "Prime Chaos," and John Lily's "Programming and Metaprogramming in the Human Biocomputer." Get stoned, or alter your consciousness in a way you consider morally permissible, and think about this stuff some more. Also, go to a rave, if you can find one.

Then improvise.
 
 
EvskiG
21:01 / 16.04.03
I'll even give you the first exercise.

For the next week, wherever you go, check the ground for quarters (or whatever coinage you use in your native country). Whenever you step out of your house or apartment, start looking, and keep looking throughout the day. PAY ATTENTION.

If you've seen the movie, "The Karate Kid," consider this exercise the "wax on, wax off" of magic.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
21:01 / 16.04.03
They still have raves? I thought since the extinction of good ecstacy raves had kinda died out.
 
 
EvskiG
21:13 / 16.04.03
OK, I'm getting old.

Forget the rave. Go to an Iyengar yoga class instead.
 
 
ghadis
23:37 / 16.04.03
The most 'proof' i've got from magick is from getting in touch with Gods. When i first started off i got a few good results from sigils, finding interesting obscure books, meeting other magicians in strange places, getting off with people etc. But i could always pass these off as coincidence or invoking 'confidence' etc so i was still pretty sceptical. My big turnng point came through an Eris evocation/invocation on a beach in Sri Lanka at 2am, slightly drunk no more (and i know when i'm shitfaced on drugs)when i decided to do a ritual spur of the moment. Not knowing what i was doing really i just ran around, tracing stuff in the sand, jumping in the sea, stripping off, running around until i was exhausted. Went a bit loon really which i see now as the invocation of eris. Once this passed and i was walking back to the hotel wondering where the last hour or so had gone i had a scary, strong urge to turn around. Someone was walking up the beach and all i could do was run towards them. As i got closer i realised it wasn't a person it was just a tree which i sat down under. This was Eris and i ended up sitting under her, picking the leaves and talking to her until the tide came up to my chest and it was time to get going. Got back to the hotel and sat up until 8ish (when my girlfriend and friends got up)writing page after page of stuff in a pad. Can't remember a lot of it but i was in tears, laughter etc. The only time i've done automatic/channeling writing. Anyway...Finally got to sleep and the next day tried to take people down to see the tree but of course got told, obviously, that it was a beach and trees don't grow on beaches...

That's my first bit of 'proof'. Since then i've had very 'good' proof with Thoth (blowing out the electrics in my girlfriends house) and Hekate (lots of taboo breaking sex stuff for some reason?) as well as all the more subjective proof that goes with this kind of thing all the time...

I realise this doesn't really answer your original question about a quick way to proove magick but i'm just babbling. I also realise that this thread could easily become a 'THIS IS MY PROOF...LOOK WHAT I'VE DONE' thread but i think that this issue is a very personal, emotive thing and people do tend to blurt out their 'turning points'when asked by like minded people. I've learnt from experience that to go on about magick to friends who aren't interested in this stuff tends to lead to being a loon and then a boor.

Jesus i'm going on...


Getting in touch with Gods is my tip for this sort of thing....but that also takes time (and i agree on working at it ...breathing exersises etc...it does take time) although be polite and nice. The recent threads on working with deities are great. Treat them like you're courting a potential love. Shower them with flowers and kisses. Get to know them. Send them chocolates. But also remember that one night stands (unless they're agreed before hand) can often piss people off (hence Thoth fucking up the electrics for weeks)....
 
 
LVX23
23:38 / 16.04.03
They still have raves? I thought since the extinction of good ecstacy raves had kinda died out.

They've not died, just returned to the Underground where they belong. V.V.V.V.V.
 
 
Quantum
07:29 / 17.04.03
Damn right. Jimmy, check out the 'getting back into magick' thread here too.
 
 
Kibblesmith
05:23 / 03.03.06
Forgive the lack of introduction, suffice it to say, I'm new enough to need one.

I've been sigiling for a while, ever since it was first introduced to me in Invisible Ink (like a lot of people, I bet/hope). But it took a while to get the hang of it. I saw the process as being a slow confidence build, not so much waiting for it to convince me it worked, but convincing myself.

My earliest sigils, failed all, were too grandiose right out of the gate. I started taking careful date/glyph/intention notes, and cast out my will for something a little easier to come by.

I sigil'd to find a quarter, and a few days later, when I stopped trying to forget about it, I forgot about it. While emptying out drawers days later, I put my hands on one and said to my roommate, mundanely, "Hey, I found a quarter." Then upon hearing those words aloud, I repeated to myself, "HEY! I found a QUARTER!" about a minute later, I found another, a nice little confirmation. This is by no means a miracle, but I had a change dish right on the nightstand because I spent quarters constantly for trains and laundry, and I can't conceive of myself tossing two perfectly good coins into a cluttered drawer. Unless I was setting myself up.

Supernatural or not, internally or externally validated, that's what I've accepted as magick. At its most mundane, a system of metaphors and habits to create a more organized and mutually beneficial interface with practical reality.

And if the quarter story doesn't impress (and it shouldn't) the reason I have the confidence to post it is because tonight, I made some pretty unmistakable progress in the steering of coincidence (involving a large cast of characters, three states, several unexpected phone calls and instant messages, one highly symbolic song on the radio, and one minor house fire).

If there's an existing thread to post this kind of phenomenon/potential-success-story, I'm probably still excited enough to type it out.

Sorry for the lack of brevity, let me know if it's frowned upon, and/or if this place is intended to be more newspaper headline-ish.
 
 
zoemancer
03:42 / 04.03.06
ghadis First of all your story is amazing.

Rake My story of initiation is similar in many ways to the ones I have read here so far with some added differences of course. I am a magician I know this beyond any shadow of doubt. I have been co-creating my reality at least 30-50% of the time for several years now which is about how much of the time I am able to stay off of auto pilot but that beats where I was before achieving magical consciousness which was 100% auto pilot.

I have been thinking alot lately about group intention to enact change upon the world, hopefully positive. Imagine the power one person can achieve by firing their will into the possibility field multiplied by the unified focused intention of others as well.

Rake and the rest of you I think this might be a good time for an experiment. To prove to Rake that magic does really exist and can be perceived directly in his world why don't we all coordinate a group ritual where we simultaneously fire off an intent for something pleasant but unmistakably magical to happen in Rake's life.

I am sure we all could come up with a simple little ritual or maybe a shared sigil firing or something to accomplish this. Once we have completed the mission perhaps we move on to bigger and better things with even more people.

Whaddaya say?
Plus Ultra!
 
 
Kibblesmith
18:14 / 05.03.06
I'm game if the demand still exists, but I haven't got any suggestions. I'm still on training-wheels, by and large.
 
 
Sekhmet
20:09 / 05.03.06
Note, dear ones, that this thread was started three years ago. Is rake even still around?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:31 / 05.03.06
I'd like to read Jack Pumpkin's story though, if ze's up for that.
 
 
Quantum
13:13 / 06.03.06
How about putting it in the coincidence log?
 
 
Kibblesmith
21:01 / 06.03.06
Asap. Recent developments are still tailoring it.
 
 
zoemancer
03:41 / 07.03.06
Crap I didn't even notice the date on Rakes post until you pointed it out. I did however start another thread to conduct our experiment for those interested.

Operation Coincidence Driver
 
 
Fell
16:20 / 07.03.06
Okay I just briefly perused this thread, and Jack and LVX23 had some good replies.

Because at-the-gate intended his first foray into magic to be a "love spell" or whatever, I suggest checking this out:

Casting sigil magic to get laid

As for "proof" of magic working, how about a letter from one of the women I gave a lecture to at the University of Alberta. She was a science major, and decided to give my practical recommendations a try:

Today's e-mail from a student
 
  

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