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I want proof damit!

  
  

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the rake at the gates
22:37 / 04.04.03
hi, some of you may remember me, i've been giving the whole magic thing a miss for about a year because i fell into the trap of obsession,

for those who want the details what happened was that i tried a love spell out of curiosity, it didn't work, so i tried again, and i because fixated with getting it to work as 'proof' that magic would work, end result i became obsessed with getting any kind of love spell to work, even trying it on a specific person, who i knew felt knothing for me, realised this was fucked up and stopped.

since then i havent really tried any magic, but i was thinking of getting back into it, but i would really like some kind of proof that it works, i mean between everyone here someone should be able to tell me how to do something that is a) magic and b) will be easy and work, something simple that doesnt require months of meditation, or reading rare and expensive books, and no sigils, i've had mixed results with them, and no offence meant but i dont want lots of posts about 'lust of result' screwing up my workings, learning to forget what you want seems to complicated and i could never manage it before,

so lazy as i am, can anyone offer me any proof?


ps: i've got the sprial amplify servitor design i finished last year banging around somewhere if anyone wants it
 
 
Jack Fear
23:09 / 04.04.03
You know what? I'm glad you mentioned this, becaue it plays on something I've been wanting for a while.

See, I want to be able to play the trumpet like Miles Davis, but I can't be arsed to put in months of practice, or to learn any complicated music theory, which is way too complicated, or do any exercises, cos I'm lazy.

I don't want to have to learn any tunes, either. Or listen to any records.

Or buy a trumpet.

What d'you think?
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
23:12 / 04.04.03
You're my hero Jack. You beat me to it.
 
 
LVX23
23:13 / 04.04.03
First of all, your skepticism will be the biggest block to your success in magick. Any intentional magick will be undercut by the amount of disbelief attendant to the act.

Secondly, magick is a skill. And like the development of any skill, it takes work. You start off small and slow. Just as you wouldn't jump into a sailboat for the first time and sail across the Atlantic, so you wouldn't immediately enchant to win the Lottery and expect good results. To develop the skill, start by enchanting for things that are very likely to happen on their own, but then take ownership of their coming to pass. The works of Peter Carrol are perhaps the best on these ideas. And, yes, you will need to read some books.

Thirdly, your motivations will determine the degree and orientation of your ability. Trying to get someone to fall in love with you just to satisfy your curiousity betrays a shallowness and a degree of malignancy, as you came to understand. Likewise, looking for proof will breed failure just as enchanting to win the Lottery will not buy you that Porsche.

Finally, it's not about Proof - it's about Belief. If you want to see a positive outcome from your magick, you have to be willing to believe that it will succeed. These traditions and techniques have evolved over millenia, in spite of the continuing onslaughts of Reason. Reason will never prove Magick, but Magick has a knack for defying Reason. Magick does not reduce to Mechanics, just as Thought does not reduce to Chemistry.

Crowley, in referring to the Qabalah, once compared it to the imaginary number i, the square root of -1. There is no possible way to prove that this number actually exists. And yet mathematics continues to advance thanks in large part to it's invention. "It helps me to make certain calculations; and as long as that is so, it is useful".
 
 
LVX23
23:24 / 04.04.03
Ah, Proof:

Clear your mind.

Breathe deep.

Now move your index finger.

Then identify the exact source of that movement. What was the origin of the notion that, now, I will move my finger? Not the twitch of the muscle fiber, the nicotinic and adrenergic transmitters synapsing from the sympathetic motor neuron onto the actin & myosin fibers. Not even the initial complex of summations in the motor cortex which would arc down into the spinal column.

But behind that, the very impetus of the thought to move that finger - the thought behind the thought.

Where does that come from? How did "you" Will that biochemisty into Being and Action?
 
 
eye landed
00:19 / 05.04.03
Ha! And behind that, LVX23's command to do it, and how that command was communicated. And behind that, LVX23's thought process that led to the idea of the command, and the presumption that it would be useful to jimmy jazz. And behind that, jimmy jazz's post, and his reasons for posting.

So JJ, your laziness has led to the movement of your index finger! If that's not magic, I don't know what is. Talk about defying reason!
 
 
Salamander
04:37 / 05.04.03
JJ, I hold up to u a flask of silver chloride and say, "This is a solution of silver chloride in water". You reply, "Prove it". But u understand in order to prove it, I would have to teach u chemistry, which would eliminate the need for proof, after learning, the solutions nature would be easily ascertained by yourself. If you want "proof" then keep trying, keep learning, keep playing. We all can't be masters of evocation or gematria, but we all have magick, case in point with the finger anology.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
08:08 / 05.04.03
LVX23 Finally, it's not about Proof - it's about Belief. If you want to see a positive outcome from your magick, you have to be willing to believe that it will succeed.

Hang on, I thought if you wanted it to succeed that buggered it up?
 
 
Cygnum
09:26 / 05.04.03
I can't think of anything more magickal than witnessing progression, seeing acomplishment. Using the trumpet analogy, a mere 15 minutes a day is nothing out of a persons life. Six months later that 15 minutes has turned into hours of meditative enjoyment. You may never and should never, be Miles davis, but you WILL undoubtedly be one of the best Trumpet players in your area.
 
 
illmatic
09:37 / 05.04.03
I think the others above are making good points but if you really want proof, buy a copy of the Wilhelm Baynes I Ching, A Tarot deck or a set of Runes - whichever floats your boat. Spend six months doing divination about whatever's going on in your life and keep a diary of your results. That should settle it.
 
 
illmatic
10:02 / 05.04.03
BTW, i don't think scepticism towards magick is a bad thing, really. Or rather scepticism towards certain claims of magick. My first impression of Chaos Magick was a quick bit of hand relief over a funny squiggle and the universe would fall, gasping, at my feet. Unsurprisingly, it didn't work. I think magick/spirituality or whatever you want to call it is a much deeper and involving process. Just get stuck in and see what happens.

Re: The post above. It shouldn't take six months for you to get results with divination, but it takes a while to get your head round the symbols or allegorical language.
 
 
the rake at the gates
12:32 / 05.04.03
ok this was what i was worried about, i ask what i think is a reasonable question, and the first response i get is a smart arsed reply, first magic is nothing like playing the trumpet beacuse you can easily see how a trumpet works and that it is working, secondly i dont want to master it now with no effort, to use the trumpet analogy, what i want is for someone to show me how to put the trumpet to my mouth and blow any note, not be able to play like miles davis, surely someone can say put x crystal here, y candle there and chant z repeatedly and something will happen
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
13:09 / 05.04.03
I think the mistake you're making is assuming there's some kind of sequential process you can follow and expect that at the end of it you'll be a magi or whatever. People are being flip because magick gets short shrift a lot, and implicit in your question is the belief that you can somehow get it in a simplistic way - like you'll suddenly be able to go "poof!" and have gremlins appear or whatever. My belief is that the people here DO want to help - as they've always been helpful to me, other dramas aside. But magick ISN'T the sort of thing you can get a cookie-cutter response from. I'm still looking for that MAGICK WORKS! kind of experience. But I keep trying. And I keep believing that it's because it's something beyond the norm, I won't find it by following instructions.

Maybe that'd help you a little... to be ceaselessly derivative, think outside the box and it'll happen. Just not when you're looking.
 
 
Caleigh
18:11 / 05.04.03
"Magcick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will."


in performing complex hocus-pocus sigils/rituals you are causing your will to be enacted. you are sitting in a room waving your arms about scribbling on paper and making strange noises.

the proof is in the pudding and if you want some pudding you need to bake it yourself.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
20:25 / 05.04.03
Por que? It's fun. If you don't enjoy it on some level, don't do it.
 
 
LVX23
22:46 / 05.04.03
FlowersHang on, I thought if you wanted it to succeed that buggered it up?

Yeah, I guess my wording was a bit awkward. Desiring success does confound the results.

What I was trying to say was that you must believe that the process is real and valid - as real as the process of baking a cake.
 
 
Professor Silly
16:20 / 06.04.03
I take a different approach from LVX23:

As a probationer of the A.'.A.'. I approach magick from a scientific perspective, in which belief represents a big stumbling block. A scientist mustn't believe or disbelieve in any potential result, as this will undermine the experiment. The only way to "prove" that such magick works involves personal experiments--noone can prove it for you. For example: if I levitated in front of you three feet in the air, does this "prove" anything? Perhaps I merely have the skills of any competent illusionist, or perhaps I am adept at hypnosis...maybe I didn't move at all and have the ability to telepathically project images into your mind.

So as the great (make that Great) Robert Anton Wilson stated in his Cosmic Trigger series: try some of Crowley's experiments and see what happens. I'd specifically recommend his yogic experiments in pranayama. Anybody, if they slow their breath down, will experience some very strange phenomena...like "levatation."

One last point, and I've made this point again and again in my posts here. One's definition of magick must match others if any intelligent communication will occur. As stated by someone earlier in this thread, Crowley defined magick as "causing change in conformity to one's will." This definition includes all of life's willful behavior, not just ceremonial rituals. If I will more strength, working out will accomplish my will...if I will to play better music, practice will accomplish my will...if I will to make a girl to fall in love with me, flowers and poetry might prove stronger magick than jacking off on a picture of her. The question boils down to intention. As Levi said, any magick geared towards bringing the magician's consciousness closer to "God" has the momentum of the universe behind it and can not fail, and anything else represents black magick and will probably backlash on the magician.

I think too many people have such a horrible conception of magick and the true purpose behind its practice that they totally miss the point. The goal of magick exactly matches the goal of yoga, or the goal of Buddhist Shao-Lin, etc. etc. etc. Ceremonial ritual represents one way of joining the individual consciousness with that of "God" or the "Tao" or whatever you will call it. Once one accomplishes that (as individuals throughout history have done) one can make any spell work without problem.
 
 
LVX23
18:20 / 06.04.03
Very good points dAb.

This is what I was tryiing to get at with my post,
... that the process is real and valid - as real as the process of baking a cake.


The Method of Science, the Aim of Religion.
 
 
Professor Silly
02:24 / 07.04.03
exactly!

I remember the example used in Magick and Theory and Practice involves the "magick" of spreading thoughts...via the magickal tools of pen, paper, publishers, book distribution. I think one can test the power of any individual's magick by the amount of time their ideas live on. We still talk about Plato many many many years after he has died. The Tao Te Ching still gets published thousands of years after the death of the author. Or how about the founding fathers of the U.S.A...?

Oh, and by the way--when I mentioned earlier that one could better understand the nature of initiation by joining a stuff fraternal order I failed to mention the alternative: take lots and lots of acid and cross your fingers...you might just make it out sane and functional within society.
 
 
--
03:03 / 07.04.03
I think my favorite Crowley quote (I'm paraphrasing) was "The most magical way to open a door is to walk across the room, grab the handle, and turn it" or something along those lines. Or maybe "How infinite is the distance from This to That. Yet all is here and now. Nor is there any there or then; for all that is, what is it but a manifestation, that is, a part, that is, a flasehood of THAT which is not? Yet THAT which is not neither is nor is not that which is!" I imagine Crowley had trouble keeping a straight face when he wrote some of this stuff.

Actually, the best magical advice I can give is read a lot (though it seems I do more reading then actually DOING) and I also suggest doing little magical things on a daily routine so you get accostomed to it. For example, every morning I say a spell to my computer to protect it from errors, every time I get in my car I say a spell to make it not stall, etc. Namely make the world a magical place and magic will come to you (forget who said that). Think of "Calvin & Hobbes" and how Calvin used his imagination to transform dull everyday things into something magical and exciting. That's the best advice I can give right now, I'm quite lazy myself.
 
 
Quantum
12:22 / 07.04.03
Jimmy Jazz- so what you want is a spell that will prove magic works, say levitation or conjuring fire, yes?

Say I gave you a demonstration of levitation, would you...
a)believe me and become a magician or
b)think 'Blaine did it better!' and look for a trick?
c)freak out and run around screaming

Speaking more philosophically, have you come across the idea that proof denies faith? Faith (e.g. in God) is the leap between probability and certainty, from believing something is probably true to to knowing it's true. If you had proof that God exists, there would be no leap of faith, it would be common belief.

Magic needs faith to work.
If I prove it works to you it would deny your (& my) faith in it.
therefore It would not work.

So you see the paradox- You can't use magic to prove magic works, because if you do it won't work. You as a sceptical observer would prevent the magic occurring, or be blind to it.


Put simply, magic is not subject to rational belief and requires Faith (like miracles, read some Hume)
 
 
Professor Silly
13:52 / 07.04.03
In science, one can never prove anything.

One can only disprove.

So in order to disprove magick one would have to perform the various rituals (understanding the reason for every gesture and phrase...which means studying...a lot) and have nothing happen. One must then look for any error on the part of the magician--if done perfectly and still nothing happens...well then one has disproven their ability to perform magick.

...of course, this could result from a defect in the individual.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:53 / 07.04.03
You want proof, I want ten thousand mutant locusts to do my bidding and a troop of trained, submissive sexual athletes to soothe my aching limbs.

I guess we've both got some work to do, huh.

Sheesh.

You want proof? Start practicing and see. Give it about six months.
 
 
Quantum
14:26 / 07.04.03
dAb- That assumes magick is subject to the laws of science. They are often considered competing explanatory paradigms, magick can't be disproved by science any more than Religion can be. (Hume- it will always be more reasonable to doubt miracles than believe them)

"ten thousand mutant locusts to do my bidding and a troop of trained, submissive sexual athletes to soothe my aching limbs" Yay! Me too! and a Pony!

I have to second the LSD motion (above)- the lazy way to believe in magic is to take a bunch of hallucinogenic drugs, then look at something. Anything will do, but a white wall is best for symbolic purposes. It *is* white, but it *looks* multicoloured and not subject to time and space. Reality/illusion etc etc. what we are taught to believe is a lie.

Alternatively invite a web forum full of magicians to curse you, and see if bad things happen
 
 
gravitybitch
14:50 / 07.04.03
I'm lining up for those submissive sexual athletes, too! What's the ETA??

[clears throat]
I have to second the advice to practice for six months... Really practice, and do some reading. There's tons of stuff on the web if you're not in a position to buy books (although you really should own a solid reference or two). Give it time and effort.

Magick is a subtle thing. I started from knowing that magick worked for some people, didn't work at all for others, suspecting that it might work for me... and I've found that the stuff I've been seriously working with is working. I've got a much better sense of where I am in the universe and whether what I'm doing is in line with the general flow of things (both in the wide sense of "Why am I here?" and in the mundane sense of being able to find parking when I'm doing the stuff I'm "supposed" to be doing).

Don't expect that everything will flow smoothly, though - it can't. You won't get everything you want; you won't always be wanting things that are possible, given the amount of energy you can summon to change things-as-they-are... But you'll definitely end up with a better sense of what is possible.
 
 
LVX23
16:23 / 07.04.03
1) every morning - LRP for invoking Fire
2) every evening - LBRP for banishing Earth
3) Liber Resh as often as possible

Magick will find you...
 
 
illmatic
17:29 / 07.04.03
Quantum - respectfully, I disagree with you on the faith thing. I think Magick can be proved - subjectively anyway, which is perhaps only slighty better than no proof at all, but at least it's something. Perhaps what I'm trying to say is Jimmy's got to prove it to himself?

Overall, though, having given it a bit of thought, I think his opening post is quite valid. On one hand we have a dozen or so people on the internet and a wacked out comics writer or two. On the other we have consensus reality and orthodox science, as well our own fears of self-delusion etc. I think it's understandable to ask for something that gives some solidity to magick's claims. But to echo everyone else here, it's a subtle thing and it might take some time. (That's why I put in the comment re. divination - it's the quickest way I know of to get a convincing result - none of that malarky about having to forget everything either). I'd add the thing with magick is that everyone's experience is different - it isn't a simple case of x candle plus y crystal equals z result, even with basic practices. All any of us can ever say is "I did this, this happened to me". It might not work for you but you'll never know unless you try it.

Here is a very interesting essay about learning magick from books and how it compares to our normal learning. Well worth reading.

Going back to my own experience, I had some striking experiences with dreams via sigils and energy manipulation exercises (ie. Middle Pillar) when I first started experimenting. All worth trying out.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
20:08 / 07.04.03
"Again, the situation is rather akin to computer applications. Sit some people down in front of a new application and they'll instantly reach for the manual and start reading at page one. Others will spend a good few minutes 'poking' the software to see what it does. It seems to me that some people do want magic to be made up of facts, and underlying this is a desire for it to be 'True'. Truth (with a big T) in this sense isn't merely true for me or you, it's 'True' for everyone, in the same way that, like it or not, Christianity is True - at least according to the street preachers I pass on the way to work every day. The occult 'Truth' game itself has certain well-defined rules."

From Phil Hine's "The Tyranny of Print"
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
20:38 / 07.04.03
Or here's another thing: don't do magick. It depends what you want. If you're looking for fireballs flying from your hands, buy some petrol and get some glass bottles from the kitchen. Voila. If you're looking for something a little less Final Fantasy and a little more mind altering, see if you can turn every aspect of your life into a sacrament.

Now that's magick.

(cue Debbie McGee. Only don't.)

I've been trying this for years. How's it going? Some days good, some days bad. When it really works, though, it's like living in the bulb of a lighthouse.

Which sounds far more Mercedes Lackey and far less Lao Tse than I had intended, and no doubt I deserve what I got.
 
 
Professor Silly
03:57 / 08.04.03
This thread keeps surprising me with its direction. Of course, everyone has a different neurological structure, so everyone needs a different route into this sort of thing. Some people require rules and tradition, others crave innovation and chaos; some need belief and devotion while others need scepticism and scientific methods.

"For the colors are many, but the light is one." Liber LXV

I think we can all agree in the importance of the four elemental "weapons": the wand, cup, sword, and pantacle. These can represent the will, receptiveness, intellect, and body. A sharp mind (sword) will prove essential to the creation of rituals for example. It seems to me that a lot (not all) magicians ignore the health of their body. Most of the really powerful magicians I have met have nice, trim, muscular, healthy bodies. Hatha Yoga knows this, and focuses on the body first and foremost; Shao Lin Kung Fu taks a similiar route.

So, what does everyone think: does a healthy body help bring about healthy mind, and on up the line?
 
 
Salamander
04:27 / 08.04.03
jj, what if i could prove without a doubt that magick is real, would that make you try harder? would having perfect proof make you a better magician? i don't know, i've seen things that would constitute proof for me, and i still doubt, i still get lazy, i'm still ignorant, i still don't believe, do you want proof so that you don't waste your time, or so you don't get ridiculed or what, why is proof so important?
why ask why, just do it dammit.

and yes i would absolutely have to agree a healthy body is probably a good idea, maybe, i dunno
 
 
Quantum
10:35 / 09.04.03
Illmatic- I meant objective scientific proof, rather than convincing subjective evidence, but I agree with you- Magick's been proven satisfactorily to me, the evidence indicates it probably exists. But to go from probably to certainly is a choice- I could still doubt it or put it down to chance, instead I have faith in magic (as well as in Science). "Jimmy's got to prove it to himself" Yup.

I agree on divination too- it's the most blatant (and easiest to test) magic. Learn to read Tarot cards and you'll be convinced in a few months (although doing the breathing excercises above will be more mind blowing).
I once read somebody's cards at a corporate function, and without any input from him at all told him he had issues with the past, he felt something missing, but he had a lovely present situation (and love) and should look to the future and not worry about it. He turned out to be an amnesiac, worrying about what he couldn't remember. Then his girlfriend came over and commented that she had been telling him that for ages. He was blown away, I was too, as were all the bystanders- but it could have been coincidence.
 
 
cusm
17:28 / 09.04.03
but it could have been coincidence.

And that is the trick of it. It is not that Magick is subject to the laws of science, but that its manifestation is. The results of magick will always be done in such a way that it can be explained as coincidence or tricks of the mind. The Universe has laws and you can't break them. You can however, cheat a bit and trigger those laws to be employed in particular ways to benefit your intent.

When magick works, you know because you know you willed it to be and it was. You won't be able to prove it to anyone, but they might look over the series of syncronicities involved in its manifestation and be blown away by the sheer luck involved to make such a thing happen. Yet even still, they can dismiss it all. That's why its all a matter of faith. When you realize that things are happening at the direction of more than random chance and it knocks your socks off, you'll have your proof. You won't be able to explain or describe it, but you'll know. And after that, nothing will ever look the same again.
 
 
cusm
17:37 / 09.04.03
I actaully have a souvinier that I keep as proof of magick working. A couple of them, actually, but one really good one. Twas at a party, and I'm all supercharged on LSD and MDMA, and I'm huffing NO2 while sharing breath with someone while running the macrocosmic orbit to raise my kundalini. An experiment in high energy physics Anyway, soomething worked really well, cause my energy peaked and I hit a whited out moment of gnosis beyond description. One of those everything and nothing sort of moments where I felt my head break. This was done while sitting in a circle with folks passing around a new glass pipe someone had just given me (it was my b-day) with a dragon (special totemy value to me) on it. It was being held by the person I was closest to (in the spiritual, not physical sense). At the moment my head broke, the pipe shattered, and my buddy swears he saw a lightning bolt hit him from me through it. It was one of those things nobody really knew what to say afterwards, than "whoh". So I kept the biggest piece of the pipe as a reminder. There's my proof. All perfectly explainable by coincindence and natural laws. Unless you were there for it.
 
 
cusm
17:43 / 09.04.03
Oh, and as for trumpet playing, putting it to your lips and making noise isn't magick. Magick is the people dancing to the music you make.
 
  

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