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There is Nothing but Words!

 
  

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tasneem
09:34 / 29.03.03
And that is true! To judge some words by a scale of True/False test is not a wise thing to do. Coz, there is nothing called 'universal truth'.

Every true value of a statement has a great deal of relativity attached to it. Truth or Lie is always relative.

Remember Galilio? Socitey & the Church did give him his share for circulating 'heretic' ideas like 'earth goes round the sun'. Galilio was a heretic then. Coz, for everyone else earth did not move round the sun, it was truth for them. And today the truth is lot different from that.

Than why did Galilio suffer or Giordano die?

Well, truth never has a constant value. It changes. Like, "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter", think about how people think about Osama. 'Rat' or 'Jihadi'? What is the truth?

It entirely depends whether you are in New York or Kandahar....
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:43 / 29.03.03
So the people who have died in Baghdad during this recent war have not died? In fact they never existed? In fact, neither do you. There's only me - cogito, ergo sum and I can't even swear to the meaning of the term 'I'. All that can really be said is that there is consciousness, therefore there is.

Or did you mean that although the physical world clearly exists, our interpretation of it is entirely done through concepts defined through words?

I think you're going to have to expand your position.
 
 
tasneem
10:06 / 29.03.03
I am talking about Relativity. Well, yes. I have already expanded the post. It says I need a moderator to confirm that action. Let's wait and see.

Let's take Nick's example.

"people who have died in Baghdad during this recent war"

For some, truth is, there is a war going on in Iraq. Well, for some it's not true at all. What happens if I say it's not a war? If I say, people died in a 'genocide', 'aggression'?

Last night I had a chat with some one from USA. For her, it is not 'people' dying, but 'fucking Osama worshipers'. And she tend to belive that she is very much 'correct' in her position.

Yes. A great deal of this thing has to do with interpretation. But, there are unlimited relative factors attached to it.

What I am trying to say is 'there is nothing but words'. At least words do not have some 'constant' True/False value attached to them.

And more explanation in the originial post which I have updated.
 
 
Rage
13:59 / 29.03.03
There is Nothing but Worlds!
 
 
Smoothly
14:26 / 29.03.03
So, nothing is true. Except that.
 
 
tasneem
17:16 / 29.03.03
> So, nothing is true

The idea is, things are relatively true or relatively false. That leaves no space for 'absolute truth' or 'absolute faslehood'.

One more example, 'Gorge W Bush is the president'. Statement true in USA, but a funny mistake in Pakistan. General Parvez will not like it that much ;-) This statement in question, has a relative factor based on location (USA,Pakistan) attached to it.

* I think I should have changed the topic to 'Relativity of Truth'. Can I do that now, anyway?
 
 
kaonashi
04:29 / 30.03.03
To say that there is no absolute truth is to make an absolutist statement. For your position to be viable you would have to say that there is no Universal truth for the majority of cases.

But the whole things bullshit, a lot of the time things can be boiled down to this is what is and this is what is not.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
06:06 / 30.03.03
Howsabout 'it is currently not possible for a human being to find an absolute truth (if such a thing exists) due to flawed sense aparati (sp?) and blinkered reality tunnels'? I agree with what tasneen is saying, or I'm agreeing with what, in my mind, I believe tasneen is arguing, but which might be completely seperate to what ze believes ze is arguing.

There is no spoon. There is, however, a really big fork.
 
 
tasneem
07:10 / 30.03.03
I will throw a new topic. We will see how this thing can create a paradox. It can be a paradoxical situation, if certain elements or criterions are met, what do you think?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:38 / 30.03.03
I have yet to see an argument which defeats 'there is thought, therefore there is'. Possibly even 'there is thought, therefore there is a thinker', though that might get us into trouble.

I'm always fascinated by the philosophical position which holds that 'I' is an illusion - because I can never get anyone to tell me who is supposed to be being deceived.

I'm actually not happy with the notion that "it's all just words" because it seems to me that a huge amount of our understanding of the world is garnered during a time when we don't have speech. I think there are aspects of life which we struggle to express in words, even to ourselves - there are concepts and perceptions which are too complex (literally) to be described in words, and often our greatest errors in interacting with the world come from the assumption that words can convey and encapsulate these things.
 
 
sumo
14:23 / 30.03.03
tasneem, so far it seems to be only your statements or interpretations that refuse to admit of an absolute truth. In your description of Galileo, surely you'll concede that one viewpoint - either that of the Church or that of Galileo - is, in a sense, "more" true. Or are both perspectives equally valid? Are you implying that "truth" is what the majority of people believe?

I think Nick has supplied another absolutely true observation: people are dead in Baghdad. How you wish to describe the situation that lead to their death, or even how you choose to describe the people themselves, doesn't change the fact that they're dead.

And, "George W. Bush is the president"... well, you've created a statement that is only true for Americans and then surmised that because it's not true for Pakistanis, for whom it was not designed to true, there's no absolute truth. What about, "George W. Bush is the president of the United States of America." True for Pakistanis and Americans, I'd think.

The are abstract concepts that do not easily surrender to one, absolute interpretation, but there are also many undeniably true observations, of which cogito, ergo sum is only one example.
 
 
tasneem
17:34 / 30.03.03
And, "George W. Bush is the president"... well, you've created a statement that is only true for Americans and then surmised that because it's not true for Pakistanis, for whom it was not designed to true, there's no absolute truth. What about, "George W. Bush is the president of the United States of America." True for Pakistanis and Americans, I'd think

You have a relative factor called time here. It is true or interpreted as a truth, in 2003. But what would have happened if this statement was made in 1999?

And if you consider something to be more true, like the Church and Galilio situation, you have to remember that, there are some additional factors.

About the 'dead' people, there are some religious beliefs that people never die, they just change places. FOR THEM, that is the truth.

Bottom line is, truth can change shape and charecter. So, there is a little chance of an 'absolute truth' :-P
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
20:05 / 30.03.03
"George W. Bush is the president of the United States of America."

Actually thanks to the election scandal there are a few people who don't consider that true. I'd say they don't believe it in a way that makes the truth of the statement indeterminant.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:20 / 30.03.03
There seem to be several different ideas being mixed up here...

The first is the idea that, because a statement is not complete, it cannot be true. This is largely incorrect. For example - "George Bush is the President", if spoken in Pakistan, might reasonably receive the correction "No, General Musharaf is the president. You are describing a condition that has valence in America."

Likewise, if one were to say in 1998 "George Bush is the president" inside America, you might receive the response, "No, Bill clinton is the president".

In both cases, your statement is strictly incorrect, in the sense that it describes a set of conditions that do not in fact pertain.

However, we can assume that the statement "George Bush is the President", if spoken in the United States on March 31st, 2003, contains by implication the modifiers "in this country, and at this time", just as the invalidity of the unspoken modifier "in this country" is Tasmeen's reasoning for the statement being invalid in Pakistan.

Now, Lupus' objection is actually a slightly different question, because it assumes that "is the president" also contains the implication "is the president, as a result of a fair and proper electoral procedure", and therefore that the statement "George W Bush is the president" can in fact never be true in the United States on March 31st, 2003, because he believes the term "president" to be an invalid descriptor of the person currently identified as the President of the United States.

Does this mean that all truths are relative? Not necessarily. What it does mean is that, in an open system, where ascription is also open, terminologies are subjective; we can ascribe these qualities to the descriptor "president", and assume to a greater or lesser degree that consensus exists on our definitions - on what consitutes "facts". So, Lupus contests the "fact" that George Bush is president, based on a subjective definition of the concepts associated with "president", which could itself be questioned, accepted or challenged.

Now, if we lok at "war" and "genocide", or "person" and "Osama worshipper", we're looking again at subjective terminologies, but these subjective terminologies are based on certain things that, although not incontrovertible, do have a a consensus existence. There are 22 million or so "people" and/or "Osama worshippers" in Iraq. There is military action involving Iraqi forces and Coalition forces. Although I have not experienced these things personally (and, pace Nick, the Cartesian argument - someone else who believed the Earth was round, by the way - would potentially cast doubt on the evidence of those senses), somebody is going to an awful lot of trouble to fool me into thinking that Iraq exists and that there is an action going on. After a certain mutable point, we move into interpretation, based on information which may or may not be accurate, and may be possessed to different extents by different people.

That doesn't necessarily mean that there are no absolute truths, but it might mean that access to those truths is functionally impossible, as it woudl require either total understanding or total consensus, or possibly both. So, we come down to questions like when Baudrillard said that the first Bush-Saddam war never happened, what did he mean?
 
 
tasneem
01:00 / 31.03.03
but it might mean that access to those truths is functionally impossible, as it woudl require either total understanding or total consensus

In this Haus, every day is a birthday

Can we hear more on this, please.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:14 / 31.03.03
I'll give it a go. You'll have to forgive me if I say anything frightfully dim, though - my memory is not what it was.

So, the proposition:

but it might mean that access to those truths is functionally impossible, as it would require either total understanding or total consensus
Let's take as a theoretical entity a statement like, say, "the sky is blue". Is this an absolute, i.e. non-relative and complete truth? Clearly, no, it isn't. For starters, it's in English, and so would fail to describe accurately the experience of the sky in non-English speakers. Latin, for example, splits up the colour specctrum differently, and would thus, even in translation, possibly understand "blue" as conceptually distinct. Second, it is clearly not the case that the sky is always blue at a particular place - sometimes it is cloudy, sometimes it is dusk, sometimes it is night. And, of course, "blue" relates to a complex system of reflection/refractions of light through water droplets that gives it a different set of qualities from, say, the statement "the bucket is blue". And "blue" is itself merely a shorthand for a particular set of physical rules, perceived in action in a certain way. Therefore, if we state "the sky is blue", how can we know that we are stating something correct, or that we are communicating something correct.

Answer, we can't. Unless a) we understand (and, if necessary, can express) all the possible pieces of information implied by the concepts "sky" and "blue", and the verb "to be". In that case, our own correctness in our statement will be absolute, and we will be expressing an absolutely correct statement - a description, that is, of a "true fact".

Alternatively, b) if the communication between myself and my interlocutor is perfect, then when I say "the sky is blue", our understanding of what I mean - the time, the place, the physics- is mutually perfect, and the meaning is communicated perfectly, even if actual comprehension is not complete. This would therefore be an act of "true communication". The thing I am communicating may or may not have a connection to what is actually going on, but that's another element.

Now, it seems unlikely that I will ever have the knowledge to express a statement *completely*, because at its furthest extension it might involve its contingent relationship to everything since the beginning of the universe and everything to the end of the universe. It seems reasonably unlikely that I will meet somebody whose communication with me is so perfect that we never need to confront the incompleteness of the picture we are painting.

To deal with this inadequacy, the construction of language as mechanism for communication has a certain amount of embedded data. So, "the sky is blue" I can interpret according to context as describing the perceptival effect of a particular interaction of physical laws going on at that moment in that place, or as a general but not complete description of a certain aspect of the physical universe.

Now - that embedded data certainly depends on an awful lot of things, and the prevailing mode of thought is moving towards the idea that there is no such thing as an "absolute" reality, or that if there is it is either not comprehensible or not expressible. This idea, approximately, is first attributed to Gorgias, but we can see a more modern hack at the idea of the "scientific" universe and its descriptions in the work of Charles Pierce.

However, consensus is as consensus does. "There is a war in Iraq" and "there is a genocide in Iraq" can both be seen as treatments of an ur-phrase, such as "there is fighting in Iraq", and consent can be given to one or the other, or withdrawn. One could choose not to consent to "there is fighting in Iraq", or "there is a country called Iraq", or "there are such things as people", and in each case the lines of consent and communciation woudl be redrawn - Lupus withdraws consent from the phrase "George Walker Bush is at this moment, March 31st 2003, President of the UNited States of America", because the term "George Walker Bush" fails to fulfil his demands for the terms "President". The further consensus shrinks, the more important communciation fo sense becomes.

*However*, you are also trying to make two different things the same thing. "The sky is blue", "the Earth is round" or "George Bush is president" can be inappropriate, or inaccurate, or incomplete - the Earth, after all, is not round, it as spheroidal, and Galielo, Copernicus and Bruno all made incomplete and inaccurate measurements or claims about astronomy. Bruno, in fact, appears to have pissed people off no end with his atronomical ignorance - he gave the round Earth faction a bad name. How-ever. These are nonetheless statements that, of you accept the existence of an external universe approximating to your percetions thereof, can be identified as true, false, incomplete and so on. This is not quite the same thing as statements where consent is given or withdrawn when the perceptions on which the statements are based are not necessariy; *physically* different. "15,000 US Marines have encamped outside Basra" - "15,000 oil mercenaries have encamped around Basra" describe the same set of prevailing consensual physical conditions in a way that "the Earth is flat" and "the Earth is round" do not.

Forgive the incompleteness of this answer - I leave it in the capable hands of the Barbelith beta testers.
 
 
Jub
10:18 / 31.03.03
Mask like a mirror: To say that there is no absolute truth is to make an absolutist statement. For your position to be viable you would have to say that there is no Universal truth for the majority of cases.
This argument is my favourite and is known as Democritus's Peritrope. Love it!

I see your point tasneem, but there have been hundreds of theories once held to be true which have been superceded in the light of new evidence, and no doubt, somethings that we think of as true may be shown to be false in the future.

Just because there is no one defining characteristic of a thing, does not make it a vauge term. Language can blur definitions, but that doesn't make a thing less true - does it?
 
 
sumo
12:54 / 31.03.03
I must say, I have some difficulty with the idea that there's no absolute reality. Surely there are physical phenomena that occur independently of our (human) perception of them (impenetrable quantum mechanical koans notwithstanding), and although there may be several, infinitely many even, descriptions of or explanations for those particular phenomena, they still externally exist.

"And yet, it moves," sort of thing.

If there is no external, physical reality, what is it exactly that our senses perceive?
 
 
Quantum
14:07 / 31.03.03
To back up Haus, let me cover some Philosophy questions

"I'm always fascinated by the philosophical position which holds that 'I' is an illusion - because I can never get anyone to tell me who is supposed to be being deceived" (Nick)
The 'self' is a complex of memories, thoughts, beliefs, desires etc. all of which can be doubted. The 'I' that you refer to is almost impossible to define. A much more solid position is 'There is thought now' [but see below on 'is'] which implies a thinker but posits nothing about it. (It might be that our idea of thoughts requiring a thinker is false, after all)

Sumo, replying to your post directly above, that's some hefty questions you're asking! :0)
Firstly "Surely there are physical phenomena that occur independently of our (human) perception of them?"
This is a question of knowledge. If you are convinced that this is the case, fair enough- but it isn't certain. It might be we are brains in jars, like the matrix, or being deceived by an evil demon, like Descartes. There probably is an external world, but it is a matter of Faith to leap from probability to certainty. And don't call me Shirley. ;-)

"...they still externally exist." EXISTENCE IS NOT A PREDICATE. I can't repeat this enough.
We speak in phrases that have a subject (e.g. Haus) and a predicate (e.g. clever)- we say 'Haus is clever'. The 'is' in that sentence is from the verb 'to Be' ( I am, you Are, it Is...) which means 'to exist'. Thus the phrase means 'Haus [exists and] is clever'.
SO, if we say "X exists" we are saying "X is". 'is' is NOT a predicate, we cannot meaningfully say 'X is is' and it is a common mistake to say 'Exist' as a shorthand for 'is objectively real'. Pedantic point but essential to recognise when dealing with Descartes (due to his Ontological argument for the existence of God)

"If there is no external, physical reality, what is it exactly that our senses perceive?"
Again epistemology- WE DON'T KNOW. We assume our senses are veridical (tell us the truth) out of pragmatism- if we thought they lied all the time we'd go mad. But they might not- it's possible (Matrix, Demon)
Knowledge is sometimes defined as Justified, True Belief. The 'Truth' part is taken to be Objective truth, but we don't have access to that (we only have a subjective perspective) so we don't *know* what we know. Some things we think we *know* might be false, and thus not knowledge- we thought we *knew* them but actually we only *believed* them.

I believe not only that there is no external world but that there could not be an external world. (more on this next time) The only thing we are sure of is experience, the rest (e.g. the world) is a best guess taught to us by our culture, dependant on our time and place.
So to tie this to the topic; There are no words, they are even more illusory than the real world. Truth is not only relative but impossible for us to ever know.

("when Baudrillard said that the first Bush-Saddam war never happened, what did he mean?" Haus, Hold that thought until tomorrow!)
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:24 / 31.03.03
For what it's worth, Bush is the US President. He took oath and so on. That he was alledgedly not elected is a different matter. More later.
 
 
sumo
06:22 / 01.04.03
I also enjoy sentence diagramming, Quantum. I'm aware of the infinitive's function as a substantive, to designate existence. It seems to me that you may be conflating the notion of predicate from formal logic with that from English grammar.

Different concepts seem to me to have varying levels of solidity associated with them; so, for example, the idea of our brains being in jars feels more solid than the idea of a demonic psychic puppeteer. Then of course there's the problem that enjarred brains do not imply the lack of an absolute reality, merely that that absolute reality is different to the one directly perceived, i.e. rather than walking around with our brains encased in our skulls, they're gently bobbing in solution somewhere.

What you're proposing is that there may be additional layers (veils of Maya, filters) between our immediate sensory perception and ultimate reality. If our perception peels away to reveal shelves of cerebral marmalade, which in turn dissolves into a simulacrum, well, that may again merely be one more abstraction on top of something. But that implies that there is something onto which all those layers are applied. Which is ultimate, absolute, physical reality. Or not, Shirley?

I seem to've moved away from suggesting that absolute reality is directly accessible via our senses, to a description that requires that we first strip away a potentially infinite number of layers before revealing it - which possibly leaves me precisely back at the point to which Haus brought us upthread...
 
 
Quantum
12:44 / 01.04.03
Truth is not only relative but impossible for us to ever know. We are assuming there is a 'noumenal' world that causes our perceptions. I don't believe it.
The idea of causation is a human belief, the idea of a physical world is inferred from our perceptions but it's a theory. We know there are perceptions, why can't there be just perceptions? It is a simpler position, so the principle of ontological paucity (Occam's razor) should lead us to doubt the existence of an external world we can never know that causes our perceptions.

Robert Anton Wilson (in 'Quantum Psychology') describes E-Prime, a language that never uses the verb 'to be' as it doesn't make any assertions about existence and avoids binary thinking. By re-phrasing assertions in a different way we can avoid assuming the existence of an objective reality at all and reconcile statements that seem opposed in traditional phrasing.
For example take these propositions- "A Photon is a wave" and "A Photon is a particle". They seem opposed, even though they are both 'true'.
If we rephrase them without the 'is' they become "A Photon acts like a wave in certain circumstances" and "A Photon acts like a particle in certain circumstances"- both true, no problem.

"What you're proposing is that there may be additional layers (veils of Maya, filters) between our immediate sensory perception and ultimate reality (Sumo)
No, I'm saying there is no ultimate reality, no objective existence, no ontology at all. There are phenomena ('we experience perceived things' in E-prime) but no noumena (the hypothetical causes of our perceptions)
I only belabour the point about predicates because Descartes used the Ontological argument- God has every perfect quality, existence is a perfect quality (it's more perfect to exist than not to exist) THEREFORE God exists. That falls to bits if we admit existence is not a predicate.

Baudrillard said that the (1st) Gulf War never happened because it was a media war, it was just words. There's more to it than that (I think he also said it was the end of history, but I might be mixing my postmodernists) but he basically said it was fiction, a discourse in power enacted on television by the US.
 
 
Linus Dunce
16:55 / 01.04.03
And yet, we all understand the truth of traffic lights. If we ignore them as a mere, subjective irrelevence ...

For example take these propositions- "A Photon is a wave" and "A Photon is a particle". They seem opposed, even though they are both 'true'.

Y'know, time was when Darwin's theory of evolution was applied to all sorts of things outside the field of biology, giving us all sorts of wonderful things like nazism and the sociopathic capitalism sometimes called "globalism." How our descendants will laugh at 20th century attempts to apply Einstein's to everything in the same way. Relativism is sooooo last century, dude.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:38 / 02.04.03
I'm not sure we *do* necessarily understand the *truth* of traffic lights, but rather their utility. Likewise, a statement such as "That water is boiling" may not be entirely *true* (diferrent parts fo the water may be different temperatures, for example), but it is exceptionally useful as a datum to have if you're about to put your hand in it.

There's a consensus that, whether or not there is a ding an sich that is a traffic light, if the phenomenon of a red light in a black box on a pole is perceptible then it is a good idea, in a certain set of circumstances, to stop in front of it. You're not being forced to, nor is "one should stop in front of red traffic lights" a universal (or universalisable) truth, but it doesn frequently save repair bills.

(Quantum - I think you may be thinking of Fukuyama. I'm not entirely sure Baudrillard would agree that history ever started...)
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:07 / 02.04.03
Isn't this argument functionally futile? Don't we have to behave as if we can have some kind of traction on what is?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:12 / 02.04.03
Which argument, Nick? The ramparts don't exactly seem to be manned against il faut cultiver notre jardin right now...or do you mean Tasneem's original argument?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:33 / 02.04.03
The entire discussion.

The proposition 'there is no absolute truth' has no consequences once accepted, because the battle over that position simply moves to 'best available interpretation/relative truth'.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:55 / 02.04.03
Well, yes. Except that the discussions the discussions of both consent and utilty, neither of which IMHO are entirely irrelevant, are not quite the same as discussions of absolute fact, are they? Because to assume that a position, or phenemological umwelt, is not or has not a provable relation to a state of absolute rectitude or absolute existence has a result on perception and reaction - for one, consider the attitude to those who used to believe the Earth was round and those who now believe that the Earth is flat. apart from Muslims, of course, who are still getting torched, but for very different reasons.

I'd hazard that the alteration of perception is in itself a notable affect.

Also, the idea that there is no absolute truth seems to me to have little *necessary* relevance to the amount of traction we may or may not have on matters; possibly the threads of absolute reality, unalterable Platonic reality and what might be described as "truth", which it strikes me need not be identical to "reality" (2+2 =4 may be "true", but without practical application it may not be "real", perhaps?) need to be unplaited here...
 
 
Quantum
09:30 / 02.04.03
"The proposition 'there is no absolute truth' has no consequences once accepted, because the battle over that position simply moves to 'best available interpretation/relative truth'" (Nick)
I disagree. Consider moral truth. Many (if not most) moral systems rely on absolute moral laws ('Thou shalt not kill') that are taken to be objectively true. If we accept a subjectivist position they are no longer tenable- 'That is wrong' becomes equivalent to 'I disapprove of that'.
Likewise Science- if we accept a subjectivist position then Science as a search for Truth becomes meaningless (there is no objective truth to find) and instead becomes a paradigm/explanatory systems factory.

There are logically necessary a priori 'Truths' (e.g. a bachelor is an unmarried male, 2+2=4 etc) but these are just words- tautologies that cannot tell us anything new about the world. They are not 'True' in the way that we understand veridical perceptions or the way we want 'the traffic light is red' to be true.

Nick- Pragmatically all philosophical discussion is futile, we still drink tea and cross the road etc. but 'what's the point of philosophy?' is a different issue.

Haus- you're right, that's Fukuyama. My grasp on postmodernism is patchy as it's self taught, give us a summary of Baudrillard's War)
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:30 / 02.04.03
I didn't say there wasn't an issue, just that the issue has no effect one way or the other. Knock 'absolute' (a word, like 'infinte' for a sense, an abstracted notion, which we don't understand properly, and which may or may not have an actual reference) off the top slot and 'best available' takes its place.

Yes, there may be a difference in perception - or there may not. People who believe in absolutes such as God will not yield to the proposition - because their belief is in Faith, a realm which cannot be touched by this idea. Faith, after all, is faith in an absolute...

I just don't see that this discussion is useful, or possibly even meaningful.

Mathematics is the only field where it may be, and truth to tell, I'm not qualified to answer that question. I suspect, however, that arguing about the absoluteness or not of a given mathematics in words is to fail to understand it.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:05 / 02.04.03
I´m with Nick on this one. I don´t think that the proposition that there is no absolute truth has much content. (It is interesting to see what properties absolute truth has from the arguments used to defeat it. From there, I´d say that it becomes fairly difficult to find anyone who holds to the notion of *absolute* truth.)

Again, I agree with Nick, that the notion best available truth is much more useful - and much more visible. But what I find fairly curious is the tone of the discussion. Its feels like a bunch of atheists going through the bible, line by line, in order to refute it. Which is to say that the fixation on absolutes and strict binary opposites betrays a mentality that is not free of them.

For instance, wave particle duality is only a problem if you have to say that elementary particles are one or the other. Actually, they are both and neither although this is misleading as it is probably more precisely a failure of natural language to find a metaphor for a mathematical construct.

And as for maths...I´m not sure it is about truth at all. Its all tautologies, after all, which some would contend are *real*. Not sure I accept that, myself. Cue Godel's theorem and modal logics.

Anyway, the denial of absolutes is less interesting, IMO, than an explanation of the presence of consistency in perception and the utility of reality as a model.
 
 
Quantum
12:57 / 02.04.03
So I'm preaching to the converted- sweet!

Lets move on to consensual reality then , the world we all share that appears to have consistency, natural laws etc. Does it change when our beliefs about it change? (e.g. flat Earth to spheroidal Earth)
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:40 / 02.04.03
Well, if 'consensual reality' is morphable, then presumably the Earth was, is, and will always be spherical. At least for the moment.
 
 
Linus Dunce
21:20 / 02.04.03

There's a consensus that, whether or not there is a ding an sich that is a traffic light, if the phenomenon of a red light in a black box on a pole is perceptible then it is a good idea, in a certain set of circumstances, to stop in front of it. You're not being forced to, nor is "one should stop in front of red traffic lights" a universal (or universalisable) truth, but it doesn frequently save repair bills.

A truth is always "in a certain set of circumstances." For example, it is a good idea not to cross traffic lights, as long as you have no reason to believe they are malfunctioning; you want to live; you are not being chased by a murderer; your car is not on fire and there's a lake the other side; you are not driving a tank; etc, ad infinitum.

Thus there is a truth, but its qualifications are infinitely long.
 
 
Quantum
08:57 / 03.04.03
"Thus there is a truth, but its qualifications are infinitely long"
Thus there is *no* truth- it's qualifications are infinitely long. If we can't access it, it's unknowable- unknowable truth is useless (and possibly not truth as I understand it)
 
  

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