BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Cerebus Question : help me save/spend money

 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:19 / 28.09.06
Well, that's the thing, and it's annoying this interview doesn't go near it. Does he no longer hold these views, did he never really hold these views and it was some sort of meta-joke involving Cerebus, does he hold these views but is perfectly capable of having a long conversation with a woman without them realising he thinks they're an emotional void who needs their bottom smacked? He namechecks Cerebus Fangirl in the interview. He's a wily one that Dave Sim fella...
 
 
Andrew Hickey
18:56 / 26.10.06
From Following Cerebus and Collected Letters, and his blog, it's very clear that Sim still holds those views. He is absolutely, totally, barking mad, and not in a good way.

But it's really beside the point.

The trades, unlike the floppies, don't contain much of that stuff at all, and where they do it's hidden away toward the back.

My own advice is the same as Rilstone's - read up to the first trade you dislike (in my case, Latter Days), and then read the one past it, because they differ so widely in style that you could love the next one.

Incidentally, Following Cerebus is turning into the best general-interest-with-an-emphasis-on-comics magazine out there, although this issue (a 100-page interview with Neal Adams) is the weakest yet.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:24 / 26.11.07
Oh dear. (link will point to a different column after 2nd December.)

The same people who were carrying Dave Sim on their shoulders in triumphant jubilation just a few short years before, are now crying "Crucify him!" at every opportunity. Who Dave terms "Marxist-Feminists", these people have become the injured parasites themselves, as if their hearts were broken by what they perceive as Dave’s betrayal of them and their values. Yet it has nothing whatsoever to do with the comic itself, but rather with Dave’s published Ideas and Ideals, which stand in complete opposition to what many of these people hold sacred; and these, who I term the "Dave Lonely Hearts Club" members, strike back at him much as any woman scorned would. They have "banded together" to refer to him as "misogynist" at any opportunity, knowing full well that the perpetual use of that pejorative would and will continue to damage his professional reputation…even though it’s not an accurate label at all. They also call him "insane", not because he is, but because it is so much easier to dismiss him than it is to dismiss his Ideas. It is more than just a "minority viewpoint" to them; it’s a Dangerous Idea that must be eliminated at all costs.

Make no mistake, Dave Sim shook up the comics world in many ways, but none were more profound or eye-opening, or caused more contempt, than his revelations about the Female gender, and the effect that Marxist-feminism has had, and is having, on our current society.

The self-proclaimed "Pariah King of Comics" has indeed been shunned by the comics industry, and in the next few columns, I’d like to explore the amazing comic that is READS, and talk about the truths Dave revealed, and how the Marxist-feminists battled him every step of the way. Stay tuned!


So, that's something to look forward to.
 
 
Mario
13:02 / 27.11.07
By an odd coincidence, Cerebus Fangirl is an old friend of mine (we just had dinner together a couple of weeks ago). She doesn't give a damn about Sim's perceived misogyny, I can tell you that much.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:23 / 27.11.07
"perceived"
 
 
The Natural Way
14:05 / 27.11.07
I know, Fly, it beggars belief. Mario, if there was ever anyone who was certifiably a misogynist, it's Dave Sim.
 
 
Spaniel
14:17 / 27.11.07
...And a complete shit-talker.
 
 
Spaniel
14:38 / 27.11.07
Just to add, I appreciate that you're probably feeling protective of your friend, but you need to bear in mind that many of us think Dave Simm is a complete arsehole, and are likely to get cross if we see people trying to defend his arseholery.

By all means defend the work, but the man? Not so much.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:20 / 27.11.07
The funniest thing about that link is that it tried to defend Sim against charges of misogyny while using as its epigraph "It wouldn't be that big a stretch to categorize my writing as Hate Literature against women . . . in this Fascistic Feminist country" – Dave Sim. A line whose "punchline", if you will, rather than subverting the meaning of the first part actually enforces it somewhat.
 
 
Mario
15:43 / 27.11.07
I'm not defending him at all. I'm just saying that she doesn't seem to mind his shenanigans. *shrug*
 
 
Janean Patience
17:01 / 27.11.07
The guy sounds like he's going to be defending Dave Sim against the charge of misogyny based on #186 being the words of a character, a common defence at the time and one that's absolutely invalidated by Dave's many ravings since. And he's missing the point. Because while Dave, like any artist, wants feedback from his audience and was pathetically grateful to someone who liked the Woody Allen caricature in his Blog & Mail last week, he doesn't want to be redeemed. He doesn't want the world to agree with him. He wants to be the Pariah King of Comics, a self-awarded title, and goes through all kinds of contortions to remain that way in the face of other creators being glad to meet him and acknowledging him as an influence and praising his work and all that inconvenient stuff. He actually needs that alienation and self-imposed isolation to survive, it would seem. The imagined hatred of a comic-book field that doesn't really exist in the same way he thinks it does is a piece of his mental armour and one that he cherishes.
 
 
The Natural Way
17:13 / 27.11.07
Mario, people were taking you up on yr use of the word 'perceived'. Why that word, Mario? Unless, of course, you think Sim's misogyny is in the eye of the beholder.... And why do we need to know that you've got a female friend who's an apologist for Sim? Why tell us that? I think yr giving yrself away, mate.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
17:54 / 27.11.07
On some level Cerebrus annoys me, because it's presence makes Sim a known quantity and a topic of discussion -- consequently, Barbelith has to endure the latest bout of whether or not Sim is a misogynist and it goes around in a circle and has no point.

I believe Haus had the definitive line on this one, not even three pages ago in this very thread. One of the previous times this debate has randomly flared up like a bout of herpes or a United States election. I'm not sure "perception" really enters into it.
 
 
Janean Patience
18:31 / 27.11.07
And why do we need to know that you've got a female friend who's an apologist for Sim?

Cerebus Fangirl,
Margaret something I think, is someone who's dedicated herself to the preservation of Sim's work in a pretty major way, putting Notes From The President online and that kind of thing. In terms of online discussion about Cerebus, which is how this latest round on Sim started, she's a big figure. So Mario mentioning he knows her seems only natural to me.

Do you know she's an apologist for Sim? Do you know her views on his misogyny? Other that she doesn't give a damn about it?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:46 / 27.11.07
Well the 'Reads' passage quoted in the above link could be taken as the work of a raging misanthropist, I suppose. The rule being, arguably, that if everyone's under attack it's all right. The male character, while a victim, is still complicit in his terrible fate. God only knows what sparked it, but it's certainly vivid, as a piece of prose.

I've not read the notorious #186, but taken in isolation, I can see how it might be defensible. Except that it doesn't appear to be possible to separate Sim and his work at this point in time.

As a broader issue, it might be worth discussing how much of a good thing internet access is in general, for the underground, fringe artist these days. One shudders to think what Robert Crumb might have come out with, for example, if he'd had a blog, or his own chat room, when he was twenty years younger. Similarly, what might have happened to Philip K Dick's reputation if he'd been on-line while he was writing 'Valis'?

I'm not saying there's a direct correlation; obviously Dave Sim had other, more personal matters he was going through, but at the same time, looking at the publication dates, I wonder if at least part of the reason why 'Cerebus' went the way it did wasn't that after around #200 he was in contact with his fans, directly, via e-mail, for the first time. And that perhaps, they encouraged him.

All right, he must have had letters in the past, but it's a far less instant form of communication; back in the days when people still wrote them, you did have to think a bit, if you were after the attention of your literary idol.

Also the use of green ink, or the typos, would, to a certain extent, have been a giveaway.

To a man already disinclined to leave the house though, post a messy divorce and unsure about the new technology ... Perhaps AOL was the straw that broke the aardvark's back?
 
 
Janean Patience
18:50 / 27.11.07
Nah. Sim remains a Luddite. The blog is written up on his computer and passed to someone else to post online. He answers letters, not emails.
 
 
The Natural Way
22:16 / 27.11.07
Hokay, perhaps I was being unfair. People sometimes stick words into sentences without really thinking about what they mean or their implications, so I'm prepared to let the perceived thing slip.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:13 / 03.12.07
Part Two, if anyone is interested. Mainly scene-setting at this point, though it does suggest that it's going to follow the Simsian line saying such things as 'Sim’s Ideas were never addressed seriously' which is untrue. I'm toying with signing up for this place just to argue with the guy, but on the other hand, is it worth arguing with someone who has made up their mind?
 
 
Spaniel
14:45 / 03.12.07
Maybe
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:18 / 17.12.07
Part Three: As a misogynist myself I think I'm perfectly placed to defend Dave Sim's speaking of THE TRUTH against those Marxist-Feminists out there. Come back for part four where I'll finally start talking about what Dave said in his comic!
 
 
Mug Chum
23:43 / 17.12.07
I just remembered what all this reminded me of (it was on the tip of my brain-tongue all this time and it just came in a punch).

- "I don't avoid women, Mandrake. But I do deny them my essence."
 
 
Essential Dazzler
00:34 / 18.12.07
Good Shitting Christ.

I haven't read a single page of Cerebus, but I've always intended to, as in terms of achievement and controversy both, it is undeniably an important work.

The Form and Void column @ The Comic Village has turned me off forever. I guess that makes me a Marxist-Feminist?

Unless I'm totally failing at reading comprehension, he hasn't actually started to claim that Dave Sim isn't a mysogynist, he's just talked about how Emotional Voids make BRIGHTMEN all angry at him.

Everyone - Dave Sim is a misogynist
TheComicsVillage = No He Isn't
Everyone = Why not?
TheComicsVillage - because you're Male Light has been sapped by the Female Void.

BRILLIANT
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
02:49 / 18.12.07
The Form and Void column @ The Comic Village has turned me off forever. I guess that makes me a Marxist-Feminist?

You're also perpetuating the homosexualist agenda, of course.

FFS, make the hurty man leave my brain alone.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
04:51 / 18.12.07
I'm seriously tempted to sign up to this place and see if I can talk to this guy. Question One being 'Please to define what a 'Marxist-Feminist' is please?'
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
05:12 / 18.12.07
"All Women Are Created with Equal Male-Light-Sapping powers" -- ?
 
 
Janean Patience
17:50 / 18.12.07
I admit I wasn't expecting that. To defend Dave Sim by saying he's absolutely right, and that Marxist-feminists are running the world... there's been so much dodging about and interpretation of the views in #186 over the years that a straight confirmation and attempted justification of them's almost a breath of fresh air. "Hey, this hasn't been tried..."

If Dave has ever defined what a Marxist-feminist is, apart from one of the bad people who rule the world and oppress everyone in any way he says they do on any given day, I've not read his definition. Which you kind of need before hearing any of the rest of his argument, if it's to make sense.

It still all seems very Cerebus #200, this defence. Does he not realise Dave left all the Male Light/Female Void stuff behind a long time ago and moved his delusions from allegorical representations to the real world? And couldn't his whole cosmology and reinterpretation of religious texts and discovery of Truth (or 'truth' or truth, as he would rave) just be identified, given Dave's Beatles fixation, as a fan's complex about Yoko Ono ruining his favourite band blown up to take in the entire universe?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:19 / 19.12.07
Wikipedia defines Marxist Feminism.
 
 
Mug Chum
09:45 / 19.12.07
Hmm, I prefered when it was the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:54 / 19.12.07
is it worth arguing with someone who has made up their mind?

Maybe not in the sense of actually achieving anything, but... there would be many lulz.
 
 
PatrickMM
01:58 / 27.12.07

 
 
Jrod
19:36 / 31.12.07
I did it for the lulz.

I'm Seneth Somed on that page. If I missed something else to beat this fool over the head with, lemme know, or join the fun yourselves. Moronic bilge like this fool's columns need mockery, in case anyone was tempted to take him seriously.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:00 / 01.01.08
Oh dear, it's all kicked off today. Gail Simone turned up to argue about what Dave Sim said about Colleen Doran, the page got locked but a thread has got set up in their forum to continue the 'discussion' and, at the time of me writing this, doesn't seem to be working (other threads are but I'm not ready to shout conspiracy yet) but it does seem to be that the moderators of the forum can still post misogynist invective on the original page, which does seem rather dodgy.
 
 
Jrod
06:05 / 02.01.08
I guess the mod unlocked the comments on the column due to popular demand, or whatever passes for it on that site.

I think the real reason he locked the column and tried to start a forum thread is that, well, there was nothing else in the forum.

Whoever runs the site also began allowing markup, paragraph breaks, and more than a measly 1000 words on column comments. My guess is that this argument on Form and Void over the dumb crap Dave Sim said years ago is the most traffic the site has seen in awhile. That's probably a good reason to ignore these guys...

Then again, I like shooting fish in a barrel occasionally.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:04 / 02.01.08
It'll be all over When Fangirls Attack by the end of the week.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:24 / 02.01.08
LOL.

Phil Hall: Who the fuck is Blah Flowers? Why do these pathetic morons all have to post under fake names? Glenn can we make it that people have to disclose their real names, because I'd like to bounce this twat around his house for a while; see if he hears a void.

This is why I do my column, for as much of a cunt I am, at least I admit it readily. There are so many self-important smug cunts in comics who for some reason can only be smug and cunty if they hide behind some facade. For all of her fat and ugliness, at least Simone doesn't have to hide, eh Blah? Fucking moron...

Oh, my apologies Blah. You're a woman... still doesn't stop me wanting to slap you about - stupid bitches need a good slap every so often. You want misogyny, I've got bags full of it, especially to people like you. I'm betting you are lesbian with a penchant for black, piercings and dodgy haircuts...

There is a fucking definite case for the return of fascism, especially if it means that utter wastes of space like you and Gail will be locked up in some big penitentiary with a lot of male rapists - that'll actually really give you something to bleat about.
 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
  
Add Your Reply