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The Final Cut v.2.0

 
 
Captain Zoom
14:38 / 05.03.02
From the Conversation:

quote: Been thinking about this.
So, do you think that the fact that humans can commit suicide is a step forward or not? Does it point to something intrinsically wrong with the human animal that we can overide our self-preservation instinct? Or is it a step forward in that we can separate ourselves from our instinct? And is that really a step forward?

Zoom.



Well, whaddaya think?

Zoom.
 
 
Ganesh
14:44 / 05.03.02
Other animals 'waste away' if unhappy (paired birds such as swans and storks are famed for it, particularly when 'widowed'); often, deliberate suicide is an extension of that. I guess it's more an exertion of control, though.

Evolutionary theory's full of potholes, though; it's a difficult field within which to theorise about such a charged topic...
 
 
The Monkey
14:53 / 05.03.02
Opposable thumbs are very handy when it comes to offing yourself...it opens up so many options.
 
 
m. anthony bro
15:57 / 05.03.02
other animals kill themselves too.

Is it a step forward? Perhaps it is, it depends on the other beliefs that exist around you. If you believe in reincarnation for instance, then you should be okay, you can just move forward to the next life. If you don't then what?
And, if you believe in some kind of higher purpose, assuming you're not here to top yourself, how does it effect that, that you don't achieve it? Could set you back lifetimes.
 
 
Tom Coates
17:10 / 05.03.02
Weirdly I'm at the ICA at the moment and have just this moment stopped leafing through a book on Suicide - I can't remember who it was by - but it was someone substantial in sociology. Their argument was essentially that sociology studied that part of human existence that caused suicide - ie. everything above and beyond the fact that without any external pressures people wouldn't top themselves.

Or something like that. Can someone find out what the book is? It might be interestingly pertinent...
 
 
Persephone
17:19 / 05.03.02
Yeah, that would be Durkheim. I think the title of the book is just Suicide. Hold on... I will google...

[Here's one ...and here's another with annoying blinking bullet points. The bits about anomie go with the whole suicide thing.]

[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: Persephone ]
 
 
—| x |—
06:25 / 08.03.02
Yarr, so I’ve been thinking ‘bout this for a few days and I still don’t really know what to say.

As a few of you note, some animals appear to commit a sort of suicide, but yes, we seem to be able to take a much more direct route, if we so choose. So, in a sense, it sorta’ seems to point to an ability in humans which allows us to transcend the most basic drive of life, which is to be alive. However, it was only the other day someone was relating to me how often, when a person is dying (right on death’s door), the body still struggles to take the last breath, gasping and shuddering all the way. I don’t think that any living thing, in the end, is able to let go without that last moment of struggle, but I don’t know this from experience.

On the other hand, like some of you also say (more and less), it seems less that there is something wrong with the human being per se that allows us to commit suicide, but more that something is wrong with the way we interact with one and other: especially through the edifices of our socio-political-economic structures. It seems that it is these structures and the way they impose upon us, both individually and in shaping our relations to others, that drives the hand that cuts the vein (so to speak).

So, are we better off to be able to off ourselves? Is there something wrong with us that we can off ourselves or something wrong with us because we allow the structures that provoke us to squeeze the trigger to continue? All I can do is

<shrug>

and wish that we didn’t have the need to confront such a hideous issue as that of the ability to kill ourselves; in other words, I’d be much happier if ‘suicide’ wasn’t a word in our vocabulary (and no other word for an equivalent either; i.e. there was no such act which needed a word).

Mike [bro] when you say:

quote:If you believe in reincarnation for instance, then you should be okay, you can just move forward to the next life.

I get my back up (but only a little) because, even if there is reincarnation (of which I’m highly suspect), I can’t think of one theory or belief involving reincarnation which says, “hey, it’s cool to merely off yourself if you got a bad deal in this life because you’ll simply move on into another life.” Ideas about reincarnation (that I know about anyway) are typically tethered to some sort of “merit system” (so to speak) that generally include beliefs about obligations in the present life that stem from previous incarnations; in other words, I can’t think of any ideas about reincarnation which would say, “…you should be okay…” to kill yourself. But maybe that is not quite what you meant or I’m unfamiliar with the beliefs about reincarnation to which you are referring or etc.

{0, 1, 2}
 
 
ShadowRain
06:25 / 08.03.02
M3 - some of the theories of re-incarnation stipulate that your higher self/soul/whatever evolves through the passage of several lives and that there are lessons to be learnt in each life, applicable to the evolution of said higher self.

Suicide is usually a last resort for someone in a difficult situation (or multiple situations) that they are unable or unwilling to deal with any further.

Should you commit suicide with the belief that you're passing on to another life, which could technically be better, by not dealing with the 'lesson' that this life was trying to teach you, you're setting yourself up for a similar situation in the next life. Which makes the whole effort of committing suicide in order to escape, one of futility.

This said, my belief is that the complexity of human social interaction and community is often a large contributing factor to the perception of a situation being 'impossible' to deal with. Which could indicate that the structures we live in and interact with, of whatever nature, would be a determining factor in a human's ability to override the essential drive to survive.

In essence, I agree that there isn't something wrong with the human animal, but with the structures that society and other humans impose on our lives, that allows us to overcome the will to survive.
 
 
Jackie Susann
06:25 / 08.03.02
I'm not convinced there is any particular instinctual will to survive. Survival's just what happens when you satisfy a bunch of immediate physical desires - food, water, warmth, etc. So I find it pretty strange to think of suicide as some radical break with a basic drive to live - who tries to live? It just happens.
 
 
deja_vroom
06:25 / 08.03.02
On the isssue of reincarnation, once we were in class, discussing suicide with one of our teachers, a spiritualist, and he kind of commented en passant something like:

"You should never commit suicide. It's really bad for your karma. See those kids with Down's Syndrome? All suicides".

Now I'm an atheist and I don't believe in life after death, but the propriety and self-assurance with which he said those words still makes me shudder...
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
11:15 / 08.03.02
For my two miserable cents I'll say that suicide is something of an inevitability. I'm not sure about the details animal psychology and how it inter-relates with this. However as a race I think that suicide is a product of ever increasing emotional and cognitive complexity.

I don't think of it as forward or bad progress, just progress of a more static nature.

You'll notice that as a race we come up with some very interesting methods to kill each other. Suicide is like an extension of that, a bizarre genetic population control meme.

I'll stop rambling now.
 
 
alas
11:10 / 12.03.02
i believe there are good, reasonable reasons for ending one's own life, as well as 'irrational,' bad-karmic ones. [oh and i am so glad no one has trotted out the old, "suicide is the ultimate act of selfishness." nostrum. blechh.]

two of my dearest friends in the world have at different times viewed the idea that they can end their own life, in their own time, at some point in the future, as a good kind of power, as seeking a reasonable sense of control over their own destinies. knowing these two women has profoundly changed my views of suicide, although i must say i don't think i've articulated their positions particularly well ...
 
  
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