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Anti War Films

 
  

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We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:19 / 25.03.03
Thinking about Anthony Swofford's statement in Jarhead that all war movies are pro-war movies...

How would one go about making a movie which genuinely was not? I tend to think you would have to stay out of combat altogether, because the film version is naturally cinematic and exciting.

Basically, anything which emphasises the insane beauty of overwhelming odds and horrible death is out...

Thoughts?
 
 
illmatic
13:24 / 25.03.03
Well, i'm reminded of a comment by someone I can't remember, that we'll never see the real Vietnam War Film - that from the point of view of someone Vietnamese. I can imagine this being pretty anti- war, especially from a civilian's point of view...
 
 
Bear
13:43 / 25.03.03
Trying to think of war films that don't actually show any conflict, I was thinking of the high school favourite "The Long and the Short and the Tall" but even it has some fighting right?
 
 
Ganesh
13:50 / 25.03.03
'1984'? Okay, the war's not necessarily real but the media-spin and numbing, dumbing effect on the populace strike a chord.
 
 
Saveloy
13:54 / 25.03.03
Hmm. War is bad because it results in pain and death and loss. Pain and death and loss - and anything which stimulates an emotional response - is exciting. How about something that portrayed war as being unbelievably dull and irritating? A six hour epic of fiddling about, waiting, washing underpants etc, with no climax. The tricky bit would be avoiding any sense of tension.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
14:31 / 25.03.03
MASH tries to do exactly that, i think... as does catch-22, which as a film is vastly inferior in comparison (even according to the folks who made it).
 
 
sleazenation
14:46 / 25.03.03
The third man anyone?
 
 
The Strobe
15:36 / 25.03.03
Definitely, Sleaze - The Third Man is a fascinating film, basically being an anti-war movie without war in it.

I'd argue that Cross of Iron, despite Peckinpah's action sequences, is pretty much anti-war.
 
 
gridley
15:57 / 25.03.03
hmmm.... my favorite anti-war movies might not function as anti-war for everyone. Starship Troopers is probably only anti-war for people with a sense of irony. and Mr. Roberts might make war appealing to a certain frat boyish kind of crowd...

damn, it's hard...
 
 
Jack Fear
17:24 / 25.03.03
What about "Johnny Got his Gun"? can't see any possible way to read that one as pro-war...
 
 
Tamayyurt
17:39 / 25.03.03
Why does action automatically = pro-war? I think Full Metal Jacket is very anti-war and will leave even the most dense of frat boys feeling very wrong inside.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
18:11 / 25.03.03
I'd agree that "Full Metal Jacket" is a very anti-war movie. If you don't leave the theater feeling a bit sick and dizzy after seeing it, you weren't paying attention. The good thing about it is that many people I have talked to who were in Veit-nam said that it is the closest movie to their experience that've seen because it captured the sheer chaos of what went on around them as well as the boredom.
 
 
Baz Auckland
18:16 / 25.03.03
Not really a standard war movie, but Bloody Sunday shows action and rioting, and leaves you sick and dizzy at the end.
 
 
videodrome
18:20 / 25.03.03
No mention of Stan The Man? Dr Stragelove? Paths of Glory? While the latter features combat, it's very much like that of Johnny Got His Gun - a visual inspiration, in fact - that presents battle without falling into cliche's of small men overcoming great odds.

Oh, wait. Scrolling down I see that iLad just tossed out FMJ.
 
 
grant
19:10 / 25.03.03
Swimming to Cambodia?

I dunno - it's more anti-Khmer Rouge genocide than anything else....

I haven't actually seen The Pentagon Papers, but that might be really close to the "about war/not showing war" ideal up top.

Of course, the best ever anti-war film is None But the Brave, directed by and starring Frank Sinatra.




During World War II, American soldiers have plane crash on remote South Pacific island, home to an isolated, stranded unit of Japanese soldiers. The Americans have a doctor (Sinatra). The Japanese have a priest, fishing spears and a small vegetable garden. Despite the reservations and prohibitions of their commanding officers, the two groups of soldiers become friends. The Americans have a radio, but it's broken, we think.

[SPOILERS]




------------
And then a ship sails by, flying the colors of one of the two sides.... and

..the *final act* is what you expect the *first act* to be in any normal war film. Only it's not so much fun any more, because all the people on both sides are real characters, dig?
----------



[/SPOILERS]

It's pretty simplistic, but it gets the point across. Hits you over the head with it at the end, actually. In big block letters.

I love that movie.

 
 
doglikesparky
13:57 / 27.03.03
I'm quite surprised that Apocolypse Now hasn't been mentioned yet...
 
 
Jack Fear
14:18 / 27.03.03
Probably because Apocalypse Now is actually pretty ambivalent in its attitudes? Certainly, whatever its intention, it has been embraced as a glorification. I hear people quoting or paraphrasing Kilgore's "I love the smell of napalm in the morning" all the time, and with no irony whatsoever...

There's a heavy Nietzschean ubermensch beyond-good-and-evil thing going on: Kurtz's monologue is essentially a justification for atrocity as a means of demonstrating determination and toughness.

And the denouement seems to suggest that Kurtz became a monster because he tried to be a soldier with the soul of a poet, whereas Willard resists the temptation to make himself a king because he is a soldier and nothing more—he does the job and then departs.

The moral message, if any, is Follow orders: do not stray beyond the parameters of your mission. Hardly an anti-war message, is it?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
01:35 / 28.03.03
Has anyone seen "Pretty Village Pretty Flame", a Serbian movie about Bosnia? That's fairly harrowing, focusing largely on people's lives before they start killing each other (only in flashbacks, rather than having an interminable wedding scene a la "The Deer Hunter". And it also has one of the greatest openings I've ever seen in a film.
 
 
rizla mission
13:11 / 28.03.03
Thinking about Anthony Swofford's statement in Jarhead that all war movies are pro-war movies...

I've read that viewpoint in several different places recently and, well, I don't understand it at all really..

To my mind, the big 3 'classic' Vietnam movies - Full Metal Jacket, Apopalypse Now*, Platoon - are all clearly, unquestionably, anti-war.

They're all highly disturbing, they all raise numerous questions about the legitimacy and conduct of the war, the violence in all of them is portrayed as being brutal and unjustified, and American officers are almost always seen as being cynical, bloodthirsty or stupid.

But then, does anyone think this interpretation of the films is to some extent down to me projecting my own views on to them?

Could someone with a more right wing perspective come away with a different message entirely?

(*well, Apocalypse Now up until they find Kurtz anyhow. After that I suppose the themes mentioned by Jack come more into play - but the film up to that point pretty much embodies a 'war is hell' attitude I think..)
 
 
Jack Fear
13:43 / 28.03.03
I dunno, Riz—I don't think Apocalypse Now is as simple as that. It's an odd beast, which comes down to its makers—Coppola represents a more antiwar stance, but the screenplay is by John Milius, who is unapologetically right-wing in his politics—he later made the astonishingly jingoistic Red Dawn. Apocalypse Now, like all his work, presents an essentially macho worldview, that violence and aggression are essential and even ennobling to the human character (he also made Conan the Barbarian: "What is the best thing in life? To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you and to hear the lamentation of their women!").

Look at Willard. When he's demobilized in Saigon, he is dissolute, self-destructive. When he is assigned to terminate Kurtz, he comes to life again. Duty, Honor, Discipline, Purpose: these things, these military values, sustain Willard. He's insane, of course, as insane in his own way as Kurtz—but insane only by the standards of peacetime. War has its own standards, its own logic, which allow this terribly damaged man to be useful.

So there's a mixed message from the get-go: War is Hell, yes, but it is also (to paraphrase the title of a recent book) a force that gives us meaning.

Coppola was agonizingly aware of the tug between his vision and Milius's, and worried terribly about the moral stance of the film—but he remained true to Milius's script as well as to his own feelings, and the finished film is the stronger for it: you can feel the seductive pull of soldiering and the cleansing catharsis of violence, even as you are repelled by them.
 
 
Saveloy
13:51 / 28.03.03
Rizla:

"To my mind, the big 3 'classic' Vietnam movies - Full Metal Jacket, Apopalypse Now*, Platoon - are all clearly, unquestionably, anti-war."

To the pipe smoking, civilised, Tony Benn part of your mind, maybe. To the crack smoking, fist-f***ing Iggy Pop lizard part of your mind, no. That part's thinking "Woo-hoo, pretty lights! Noises! Meat! MMMMM!!!" That's what I reckon Swofford (via Nick) is saying.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:06 / 28.03.03
Zackly.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:22 / 28.03.03
Jack Fear quoting Gene Wolfe: "Almost any interesting work or art comes close to saying the opposite of what it really says."

'S true.
 
 
rizla mission
14:25 / 28.03.03
goos points all.
 
 
rizla mission
14:26 / 28.03.03
good, even.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:45 / 28.03.03
Honk Honk.
 
 
Helmschmied
16:55 / 30.03.03
Despite the fact that it's about "heroic Americans" doesn't anybody feel that Saving Private Ryan did a good job of making war look horrible and disgusting? I remember when it was first in theatres, many people walked out during the opening scene because they couldn't handle it.
 
 
Saveloy
14:36 / 25.01.06
I was reminded of this thread when I heard a review of Jarhead in which it was claimed that it was "uniquely, for a war film, all about the boring bits."

Is it a realisation of the "make war seem dull" thing that we talked of up there?
 
 
TeN
15:37 / 25.01.06
the comments about Full Metal Jacket in this thread are particularly interesting for two reasons:
1) I have some very conservative friends who love this movie, and if you told them it was anti-war, they would laugh at you.
2) Kubrick himself, before making the movie, declared that he wanted to make a war film. Someone told him (and I'm paraphrasing) "Well, you made Dr. Strangelove" to which he replied "No, Strangelove was an anti-war film. I want to make a war film."

I don't think the film is inherently anti-war at all. I think it's just incredibly honest. If you're an intellegent individual who supports war, the film will support your contentions, and if you're an intelligent individual who despises war, it will also support your contentions.

Personally the very idea of pro- and anti-war films is something I find disgusting because it basically implies outright that the truth is going to be distorted to fit the director's point of view. Platoon comes to mind as a perfect example of this (overdramatic, and with a somewhat poetic narrator to tell the audience what to think), and it's one of the reasons I don't place the film as on high of a pedastal as many others would.

As for Apocalypse Now, I think it barely qualifies as a film about Vietnam at all, and even if the aspect of war itself were to be removed entirely, it would still work equally as well against a different backdrop. The film is essentially about the conflict between Id and Superego, about wanton violence, and about the Jungle as metaphor for the subconcious. Coppolla merely substituted the British Imperialism of Conrad's Heart of Darkness with what he saw as it's modern day equivalent - the Vietnam War. The film presents a scathing look at the war for sure, just as Conrad frowned upon the ivory trade in the Congo in the novel, but that's not the focus of the film, merely a backdrop for the much more primal, personal, and psychological themes.

And finally, because Helmschmied mentioned it: Saving Private Ryan. I think overrall the film takes a pro-war stance, while still maintaining the "war is hell" stance. But that's to be expected... every modern war film MUST admit to at least that much if it's to be taken seriously. Simply saying that "war is hell" alone is not nearly enough to make a film anti or pro war, just enough to make it somewhat accurate.

Some other films that might be worth discussing:
- Black Hawk Down (I find it to be more along the lines of Full Metal Jacket, in that it presents an uncompromisingly honest view of war. I find it strange that so many find this film to be pro-war)
- Three Kings (it suffers from the same heavy handed bias that Platoon does, except manages to pull it off much more elegently, I feel... it also presents the side of "the enemy" - something Platoon fails to do)
- The Patriot (an interesting specimen, especially because we've only mentioned post-WWI films so far)
 
 
gridley
15:43 / 25.01.06
I thought the recent French film "A Very Long Engagement" (starring Audrey Tatou) did a great job of showing how awful WWI was without making war scenes exciting or the soldiers particularly heroic.
 
 
Spaniel
16:54 / 25.01.06
Re FMJ

If you're an intellegent individual who supports war, the film will support your contentions...
~Ten

Knee jerk reaction: you really need to back that up, 'cause I for one think that's absolute crap. Oh, and oblique references to the opinions of your "conservative friends" won't cut it.
 
 
TeN
17:09 / 25.01.06
well if the person truly supports war for intelligent, well thought out reasons (as opposed to brainwashing or mere ignorance) and has a good understanding of what war actually entails, and if the movie really is acurate and true to life, then wouldn't it merely jive with what they already understand war to be like, and therefore not change their opinion? seems like simple logic to me.

of course if you want to argue that the film isn't accurate, then that changes things, but i haven't heard anyone bring that up yet (in fact, one of the major points of many of those who praise it as a great anti-war film tends to be it's brutal honesty)
 
 
Spaniel
17:47 / 25.01.06
I smell equivocation.

This

If you're an intellegent individual who supports war, the film will support your contentions...

Doesn't appear to be the same thing as this...

well if the person truly supports war for intelligent, well thought out reasons (as opposed to brainwashing or mere ignorance) and has a good understanding of what war actually entails, and if the movie really is acurate and true to life, then wouldn't it merely jive with what they already understand war to be like, and therefore not change their opinion? seems like simple logic to me.

In that in the former you *seem* to be suggesting that you can dig pro-war arguments out of FMJ (I beg to differ), and in the latter you *seem* to be saying that FMJ is merely unchallenging to those with a well thought out pro-war stance (only if they're reading the film poorly, IMO).
 
 
TeN
18:33 / 25.01.06
ok, well can we at least agree that the film isn't "very anti-war" or "clearly, unquestionably, anti-war"?
 
 
TeN
18:50 / 25.01.06
"only if they're reading the film poorly, IMO"
explain... I think it's a perfectly logical reading of the film. I suppose one could argue, if we were discussing a different film, that "the director had intended [such and such]," but as I said before, Kubrick stated outright that he wanted FMJ to be a "war film" but not an "anti-war film"
 
  

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