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The white rock fan's hip hop cd collection

 
  

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Old brown-eye is back
14:51 / 21.03.03
Yes.
 
 
Char Aina
17:45 / 21.03.03
no one said anything about owning that album making you an idiot or ignorant of hip hop; they were talking about most idiots and rap-ignorami owning it.
which is different.


also;

. But I'd pick "Paul's Boutique" rather than "Ill Communication." Because, surely, no one on the planet still listens to the latter, do they?

i have both of those, and i listen to them. paul's more than ill, but i was listening to ill the other day. and i listened to it three times.


what you listen to is what you listen to, and it is never based on an intelligent appraisal of the skill/message/worth of the record, it is based on whether you like it. you may back that up with reasoning, but really any choice is as valid as any other. therefore, i would say, you may as well say what you like about other people's tastes.

i like slayer for example, but no matter what arguments i offer up i will never convince my mum of their merit. likewise, she will never get me to listen to take that, no matter how well she explains the harmonic skill they employ.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
22:09 / 21.03.03
When discussing popular music surely there's room for a bit of silliness?

I think what Flux's getting at is that yeah, fluffiness is fine. But where's the actual debate as opposed to "xxxxx's last album sucked! what's really cool to listen to?" threads? Everyone's guilty of posting these sort of threads, but perhaps there could/should be more room for debate about more important things in music: the mechanics of the industry, how music press varies from country to country (without using "The NME is just shit" as an apparently obvious truth) or maybe some of the stuff brought up in Fly's Hip-Hop Is Gay piece? It's stuff like that that that I think is missing here, to a great extent.

I'd be all for more of it.
 
 
w1rebaby
00:01 / 22.03.03
If we're going to have Credit To The Nation we clearly must also have House Of Pain, too. And Consolidated.
 
 
A
00:29 / 22.03.03
I think it's worth mentioning that this thread was clearly inspired by some of the responses given in the "What was the last hip-hop album you bought?" thread. Some people gave answers that were too "white" or "obvious", and this thread is really just here to have fun at their expense. If one of you hipsters make a list of the Barbeloids who gave uncool answers, and post it here, under the heading "These people are stereotypical white rock fans who don't know as much about hip-hop as they think they do", then at least you won't be dancing around the issue.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:36 / 22.03.03
Que? I admitted to J5 which apparently is the equivelent of saying that I enjoy feeling up small children with my relatively oversized cock but I laugh at your assetion that I either like 'white rock' or have ever claimed to know anything about hip-hop.
 
 
The Falcon
14:05 / 22.03.03
Anyone remember Senser? Well, put them on the list anyway. They even got reviewed in Metal Hammer despite not being metal. At all.

Part of knowing about music is being able to show off about it, and be a tremendous fucking snob. Ergo this thread.
 
 
Char Aina
15:56 / 22.03.03
i always put senser in the indie bracket, but strangely, collapsed lung, whom i love but who are similar, went in my hip hop tray.

go figure.
 
 
Old brown-eye is back
19:04 / 22.03.03
I'm not sure part of knowing about music is being a tremendous fucking snob, quite frankly. Nothing good can come from being a tremendous fucking snob - at best people will take the piss, at worst they may even begin to regard you with some distain. (Or even worse than that, some perfectly nice people will be made to feel bad about themselves for no reason at all.) The other thing I'm finding uncomfortable at the moment is a particular attitude towards Hip Hop itself. Rap music is a wonderful, important thing but it doesn't need deifing in the way that it sometimes seems to be on this here Barbelith, and neither does anything else. (Please someone tell me if I'm missing something, here.)

Anyway, some other contrived and somewhat arbitary threads for the future:

The confused Ambient fan's guide to Alt-Country
The easily pleased Punker's Ska top 10
Why the Red Hot Chilli Peppers aren't as good as James Brown
You haven't got the same records as me. What's wrong with you?
Etc
 
 
Old brown-eye is back
19:34 / 22.03.03
You're right about rap ignorami, though. Bastard dilettants, listening to our music and taking our women.
 
 
straylight
20:08 / 22.03.03
Beyond the fact that "rockist" is one of the stupidest made-up words I've read in quite some time, when, exactly, did this thread start being "rockist"? I'm reading and re-reading and I still can't tell what got your panties in a bundle, Flux.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
21:38 / 22.03.03
This thread isn't 'rockist' at all. It's "anti-rockist". The type of person who would use the word 'rockist' would only use it in a perjorative way. "Rockist"/"Anti-rockist" is an ILM term that's been spreading all over the place for the past year or so.

The "anti-rockist" stuff is in the thread title and in the subtext of most of the posts - it's all in making the "white rock fan" an unrespectable other.
 
 
Char Aina
21:50 / 22.03.03
wouldnt it be 'rocker scum', flux?


and You haven't got the same records as me. What's wrong with you? would make a great tshirt. possibly a poor thread, depending on where it went, but definately a great tshirt.
 
 
Old brown-eye is back
21:57 / 22.03.03
If you don't mind people crossing the road to avoid you then yes, it's a great idea for a t-shirt.
 
 
straylight
21:58 / 22.03.03
Toksik, you make me wish I had one of those little 1" button presses.

As for "rockist" I guess I interpreted the word backwards; I was reading it as being against rather than for rock. I'm still not sure what the point of it is, though.

Sorry, threadrot, I shut up now...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:23 / 22.03.03
Well, as you said, "rockist" is an unbelievably stupid word. But don't blame me. I didn't coin it.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
06:04 / 23.03.03
Byron has worked very hard to be black, and is as such much blacker, and thus much more deserving of respect...

wow... no comeback to this *yet* at all... it's kind of like there's been a "rap battle" and someone has been really severely "dissed" and has no "come back" because he "lacks the skills." like in that movie 8 Mile.

Cool.
 
 
penitentvandal
08:54 / 23.03.03
Nb. The following post is by a white rock fan who knows less about hip-hop than he thinks he knows. Which in itself is a scary thing, as I think I know very little about hip-hop anyway...

I don't own any Jurassic 5 albums, or anything by House of Pain, or Public Enemy for that matter (oddly, not owning PE albums always made me suspect I wasn't much of a rappist [inserting extra 'p' there...]). I do however own Psience Fiction, and the following:

Spooks - SIOSOS - which I always think of as like the Invisibles in rap form, but which is surely an astonishingly rockist record to have;

Roots Manuva - Run Come Save Me - some very good tracks, and an Illuminatus reference ('Evil Rabbit' = 'Hexen Hase', nicht wahr?), but overall a little too much clever-dicky stonering to count as a 'tru' rap record, surely?

DMX - The Great Depression - a title which becomes atonishingly apt on that piece-of-shit track where he sings about his dead grandma, but which is otherwise okay;

Saul Williams - Amethyst Rock Star - an openly rockist, and very good, album by the man who surely is Jim Crow's slightly more effeminate younger brother;

Bustah Rhymes - Extinction Level Event, which is fucking great IMHO, and Genesis, which, erm, isn't, and contains the worst example of hip-hop product placement ever;

Wu-Tang Clan - The W - which I rarely listen to coz it's depressing;

Eminem - The Marshall Mathers LP - now owned by everyone in the western world;

Rage Against the Machine - well, obviously;

Soundtracks: Any Given Sunday and The Fast and the Furious, both of which I haven't actually seen the movie of, the former being fairly openly rockist and the latter actually featuring some half-decent Ja Rule tracks, which is quite an achievement;

Singles: Ante Up, by MOP, and, god help us all, Come With Me. Oh dear.

So none of you should worry, because you all probably have substantially better hippety-hop collections than me.

Is there really an album called 'Attack of the Attacking Things'?
 
 
rizla mission
13:36 / 23.03.03
Well, as you said, "rockist" is an unbelievably stupid word. But don't blame me. I didn't coin it.

I think it would be a cool word if it was used in a similar context to "junglist"..
 
 
Char Aina
13:50 / 23.03.03
that reminds me of a joke....


why did the lion get so lost?

junglist massive!
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:31 / 23.03.03
Anyone who owns Extinction Level Event and recognises its greatness if okay by me. Congratulations! Membership of the Too Cool For You Rockists club is hereby extended to you!
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
22:46 / 23.03.03
I don't like hip-hop. Am I just a sad white indie rock fan with no hope for redemption?
 
 
Pepsi Max
05:08 / 24.03.03
Constructing the archetypical "white rock fan" (which seems to equate to NME/Q reader): Likes anything if it's 10 years old or vaguely political or Rawkus/El-P affliated.

Against which - who?

The Playa ? (Nelly, Jay-Z, Missy, P-Diddy)
The Thug? (Cash Money, Ruff Ryders, DMX, Xibit)

The White Hip-hop Dilettante?

Now if you replace "hip hop" with "rock" in BB's original thread you end up with the plaint of the very indie kids he depises ("let's list all those albums like "Morning Glory" or "Urban Hymns" that regular folks like rather than ").

BB is a white, university-educated Brit who happens to like music made largely by American working-class blacks. Nothing wrong with that. I believe his love is real. What if you ask him why he loves it, what it feeds into his self image, and why he sees himself as different to other people from his background who haven't invested as much time and energy into these musics?

Is that needlessly confrontational enough?

In the interests of full disclosure, I could say the following:

- The Brit rock press forms and preserves a cannon of "cool" music - not just with hip hop but in general (Revolver and Exile On Main Street Good, Sgt. Pepper and Satanic Majesties, bad). Magazines like the NME had a formative influence on me from about 1990 onwards. Post-Thatcher (and probably since the 60s), the UK (weekly) music press has been left-leaning. It viewed hip hop thru the lens of the rock music it championed (political commitment counting above ability - both in terms of lyrics and the production structures). Hence PE and BDP were outfits that they could understand. BB and Flyboy are coming at this from a UK perspective - hence the absence of MC Hammer, Tone Loc, etc from their lists. These were viewed as novelty acts by the NME - rather than "serious" hip hop.

- Brits (incl. me) have a massive problem in understanding hip hop. It's an alien, exotic music - like Gamelan. Brit hip hop acts are few and not well regarded. Britain's black community is smaller as a proportion of the population than in the US - and histroically they have more links with the Caribbean. There isn't a hip-hop production community in the UK like in the US - so the alternative channels to market are: 1. Indie (e.g. Credit to the Nation), 2. UK dance community (a UK MC is more likely to be in garidge kru than a hip hop act), 3. major label (traditionally smoov R&B selling better than hip hop). Hence BritHop is an import culture. And there is no real hip-hop press in the UK (rock, dance and pop dominate).

- The first hiphop album I bought was PE's It Takes a Nation of Millions. I still think The Cold Vein is a fantastic album.
 
 
No star here laces
07:59 / 24.03.03
Well, I think we should give some respect here. Byron has worked very hard to be black, and is as such much blacker, and thus much more deserving of respect, than ordinary black people who were just born black and haven't had to do anything to stay black except avoid vitiligo.

Damn straight. Why only this weekend me and my homes rolled down to Kent in the whip and showed those country fools how we do in the ghetto. We was rockin the pub lunch styles and the country walks was really jumpin. Otherwise I'd'a been all up in this thread gettin hata heads wet n shit, you know how it is, cuz.

Pepsi gets a nail-on-the-head moment for pointing out the correct analogy. It's okay for us to gang up on Nickelback et al, and the tastes of the 'masses' but god forbid anyone round on a slightly less obvious target, otherwise they're being horribly cooler-than-thou. So it's okay to think we're better than the masses, but not better than each other, eh?

Which is exactly why no-one shoulda taken this too seriously. Dammit, I have half those albums listed myself, you fooooools. I was just hoping for more imaginative cusses a la Haus, but peeps were just too busy getting indignant, I guess.

Self-image? God yes, as anyone whose met me IRL knows, I'm like totally thugged out. Blood and destruction trail in my wake.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:00 / 24.03.03
Who said I was dissing? BB has indeed worked very hard to construct himself in identification with black American hip-hop culture (interesting contrasts in Pepsi Max's construction here, btw - we have "university-educated" against "working-class"), which efforts are made more admirable by the absence of the usual significations for entry. Much like women in the workplace, he *has* to work harder at it in order to refute accusations that he does not belong. Do you see me denying love to women in the workplace?

The NME, incidentally, has responded to a criticism of their "Top 100 albums" feature which went :

It's clear that you guys have a thing about white boys with guitars. Just as long as there ain't too many saxophones or pianos and definitely not too many black faces (Ray Charles? Otis Reading? Bob Marley?). Come round for tea - I'll paly you some tunes)

(Thus once again reinforcing the unfortunate fact that most anyone who feels strongly enough about music to write into the NME is going to be a fucking moron)

with:

Well done for noticing that NME tends to cover the world of guitar music. We agree with you that there aren't too many "black faces" in that world, and there shoudl be more, but we're not going to rig our own poll in the name of tokenism.

Thus once again reinforcing the unfortunate fact that anyone who feels strongly enough about music to write *for* the NME etc etc chiz chiz...has anything ever been doen in the name of tokenism? "Hey guys, if we do this, it will be really tokenistic!" "Yay! Viva tokenism! We need to show how very tokenistic we are!")

This seems to reinforce the contention that the Brit music press is heavily stratified by genre, and thus that the sort of hip-hop that turns up in the NME is going to be the sort of hip-hop that their indie-boy writers like and feel comfortable recommending to their indie-boy reader. Nothing inherently *wrong* with that, but it does mean that the "NME selection" *is*, avowedly, not based on deep understanding of or affection for hip-hop. The editors and writers might, with some justice, say that people looking for that are as likely to find it in the NME as they are in Q, Uncut etc, all of which have in their mission statement the service of people who like a paricular sort of music, and consider themselves reasonably musically cosmopolitan but don't want to go too far along other pathways (although why guitar-free Ladytron, for example, get features is another question). Are they letting the side down here, and what other press exists to supply the absence? And is this slightly romantic idea that hip-hop is a difficult and alien culture (don't Eminem albums sell rather better in the UK than "Now That's What I Call Gamelan?") for the Brits (what are the Brits described here?) also feeding into this?

Personally, I can't see why you lot are all wasting your time debating the values of two musical forms with an almost identical commitment to a regularised rhythm and atonal vocal performance. It's like Duane Eddy vs. Gene Vincent all over again...
 
 
The Natural Way
09:03 / 24.03.03
In answer to Suede's question:

There is NO saving you. You can't be helped. Come on, Gramps.....seriously, you can't dislike a whole genre - it's massive.

Byron, sort the boy with a mixtape.
 
 
No star here laces
10:16 / 24.03.03
I couldn't do that runce, he might end up liking it, researching it heavily and then knowing more than me. Where would that leave us?
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
10:32 / 24.03.03
In answer to Runce/Byron.

Seriously, hip-hop used to be the only thing I ever listened to. Tired of it now, sounds bad I know. But god, it just doesn't do anything for me. Any of it. All of it. The records I have never get played anymore.

Except maybe for the Pharcyde. At a party. But I can't help it, I feel the same way about hip hop now that I feel about bands like the Offspring and NOFX. And I'd like to point out that in my (much) younger days, I liked them too.

Did I not listen to the right hip hop? Did I also not hear the right dodgy skater punk rock? Do I actually like both, but just not know?
 
 
illmatic
10:54 / 24.03.03
I empathise with Suedehead to a point, as I felt myself losing interest in Hip Hop over the last year or so. However this has happened a few times previously - been listening to it for a long time - but something might happen to re-kindle my interest. Actually, it's not my interest that is going - I still find Hip Hop a fascinating index to Black America - but I don't have much of a desire to listen to it at present.

Anyway -- I disagree with almost everyone above about the NME. Haven't they been championing Jay-Z, for fuck's sake? You don't get more bling blinged out and materialistic than Jigga. I remember seeing an interview with him in there for the first time, and it just struck me as really incongruous with the NME of yore - I thought they should have dug Seething Wells (old NME hack - mad ranting lefty, like Hunter S Thompson with Labour Party membership) to interview him. That would have made for interesting interview. Also seen Ludacris and others I can't remember in the NME recently - who're not all in the cool ol' lefty Hip Hop.

And while we're on this, surely the worst offender must be Michael Franti's The Disposable Heros of whatever it was - possible one of the most self-rightous, indignant and plain unlistenable LPs ever made).
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:00 / 24.03.03
I think Haus is right-on in his assessment of the NME/hip hop situation. NME, in reality, is basically a consumer buying guide for the UK rock world. It caters to white kids/students, that is the target market. A lot of the comments in this thread and in other threads in which NME is lambasted seem to miss the point that it is a consumer guide more than it is an effort of serious journalism, and what you say when applied to logic is essentially "it should be a better consumer guide, by covering x, y and z". And why? Why should this publication, whose only real goals are to deliver a demographic or two to advertisers and tell them what to use their spending money on, have to be everything to everyone?
 
 
rizla mission
10:00 / 25.03.03
Well the problem is see, we remember a time when it featured some pretty good writing and was on occasion a rather fine read, (endless wank cover features about Britpop losers not withstanding).

Unless I just imagined that in my youthful ignorance.

Can't be bothered to stride into the hip-hop debate at the moment, except to say that the first paragraph of Byron's last post made me laugh blood (if such a thing is possible). I'm rocking Pub Lunch style from now on.
 
 
D'Israeli
14:52 / 25.03.03
Hmmm... as a black working class rock fan, I have to admit that I do own some hip hop recordings. Of course, I copied them off a deluded white friend who nearly had a coronary when he found out that I (a black man) owned no hip hop. I couldn't have scared him more if I'd morphed into David Coverdale right in front of him.

They're a bit shit, though. What's all the shouting about?

Saul Williams is wonderful, though. He's, like, all deep and stuff.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:57 / 25.03.03
Well the problem is see, we remember a time when it featured some pretty good writing and was on occasion a rather fine read, (endless wank cover features about Britpop losers not withstanding).

Yeah, I remember being more impressed by music magazines when I was younger too. The early-to-mid-90s seemed like a fantasy world then, but that's mostly because we were in their target market back then. We're not anymore. They're aiming at different customers now.
 
 
The Falcon
17:13 / 25.03.03
The NME was always shit, notwithstanding the fairly entertaining Steven Wells. Melody Maker was what informed my halcyon teen-rock and rap days: Neil Kulkarni, Jamie T. Conway, Taylor Parkes, Simon Price... *sigh*
 
 
pomegranate
17:33 / 25.03.03
Flux, you have a point when you throw a little hate on this thread on the first page. And yet...anytime I meet anyone white who likes rock music and ze says "I like a little hip-hop," I always say, "do you like Jurassic 5?" And ze always says yes. I know I can't be the
only one this happens to, which is why I pretty much feel this thread, though like I said I see yr point.

Byron. It's Jean Grae. I didn't even know she had a degree. Some of the songs on that record are crappy. But some of them I like a lot. And, most importantly, YES I still like Can Ox's The Cold Vein. I freaking love it. I was just listening to it today on the train to work, thinking, does it get any better than this? It is my absolute favorite hip-hop record, ever. And one of my favorite records of all time. (I am, of course, a white person who likes rock, primarily.)

How is it that *no one* has mentioned Black Star? Ooh, I loved that record, but that was back when it was the *other* hip-hop album I had. It has *not* aged well. No sir. One of my friends called it "black music for white people" when it came out, I just remembered.
 
  

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