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Explicit and Implicit: Group Sex, BDSM, equality and non-violence

 
 
Mysterious Question
14:09 / 13.03.03
Hello All - I'm a regular user but here's my fiction suit for some questions that have been bumbling around my head for some time. Would be interested in all responses. In no particular order:

1) How do I reconcile the ideas of 'qi' or tantra, the witholding of sexual energy, with a liberatory sexual agenda?

2) How do I reconcile the ideas of equality/non-violence with S&M? How do I reconcile my 'empowering' individualism with a desire to be a 'sub'?

3) How do I learn practical sex magic? (Particularly this OTO anal variant I've been hearing so much about... sorry...)

I believe passionately in sexual liberation, but am still tied to the traditional values of love and fidelity. I believe passionately that I should be able to have sex with anyone I want, however I please, but I can't talk to my friends about it. And I don't want this to come down to a simple dichotomy between Catholic Guilt and Raging Hormones. There has to be some deeper ground.

That's your starting point.
 
 
pomegranate
14:23 / 13.03.03
1. Some say witholding can be liberating.
2. Some say allowing yrself to be dominated can be empowering.
3. Some say some things, but I don't know what they are.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:43 / 13.03.03
Hi Mysterious Q. I suspect you'll have more luck with questions (1) and (3) in the Magick forum - I can't even spell ordo templi orientis, much less tell you what they doi in bed, but it's exactly the sort of thing those guys are good on.

Question (2) on the other hand, is absolutely fascinating. Could we have a few more thoughts about it, and then I will write in the topic abstract? Or you could PM with a suggestion - there's more on topic abstracts here.
 
 
reFLUX
20:41 / 13.03.03
equality and non-violence are, in my opinion, exact parts of SM. they are a play with these philosophies within (if done correctly) a safe structure.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
22:50 / 13.03.03
And not sure what level of knowledge you have of SM, so apologies if I'm talking too basic.

1) How do I reconcile the ideas of 'qi' or tantra, the witholding of sexual energy, with a liberatory sexual agenda?

With admittedly only a basic understanding of 'qi', I don't see that there's a contradiction neccessarily. It depends on want you mean by 'a liberatory sexual agenda'.

As someone has suggested, there are many contexts in with the witholding of sexual energy could well be a liberatory practice.

Eg, in the context of sexual activity being presented as ever-present/compulsory in Western societies. Or if someone feels that sex has become too important, or that they have become defined/defined themselves by sexual activity. In both of these cases, a witholding of sexual energy, is a witholding against a external force or compulsion in an empowering, individualistic act.



2) How do I reconcile the ideas of equality/non-violence with S&M? How do I reconcile my 'empowering' individualism with a desire to be a 'sub'?

I'll have a go at the second half of this question. If you hang around S&M'ers friendly spaces you'll hopefully hear the phrase 'Safe, Sane, consensual' pretty quickly.

This is shorthand for the unwritten rules by which people play safely. Note consensual. You *choose* to submit to someone, to allow them to play with your body, mind, soul, emotions for your pleasure. A good top will be honoured to be given this responsibility, and will take it seriously.

I've often thought personally that it takes alot more confidence in oneself to be a sub than a dom, initially at least. As a switchy type, I was initially much more comfortable with dom-ing than subbing, as I felt much more able to control matters from 'up top'. I found it incredibly liberating, the first time I felt strong and confident enough in myself to submit to someone else.

Another way to look at submission, I think, is to consider that you get to lie there, while someone else strains their mind, and body, often, just to please you.

Being a Submissive should never, IMHO, be about being somehow worth less than one's dom - though one may play with this idea through pyschological/physical humiliation *play*. Being a sub is about the complement to one's Dom. They can't play without you!

So being an SSC sub is about going out and getting what you want. Individual and empowering.

(For further info, I'd recommend a book called 'Screw the Roses, Send Me The Thorns, an excellent guide to SM)

And like Haus, I'd head to the Magick for the third question. or perhaps stick a pointer there towards this topic. As I know almost nothing about the OTO.

Fascinating questions. Will have a think about the equality and non-violence stuff. Though I think what I've said connects to equality, I see SSC play as a *collaboration*.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
23:00 / 13.03.03
Oh, and before someone pulls me on this, yes, things can and do go wrong, but I'm talking about the ideal.
 
 
Jackie Susann
02:16 / 14.03.03
don't try and reconcile your sex life with your 'beliefs', it's supposed to be out of control?
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:24 / 14.03.03
Not sure I'd agree with that DPC. I can think of lots of ways that it isn't true - where you would want to assert your beliefs in your sex life. I mean, even when it comes to SM where there is violent and control play happening, the concept of rape still applies. Which just goes to show that standard morality isn't suspended. As BiP says, Safe Consensual Sane. That certainly does not mean "out of control".

The broader issues are more interesting and I've always though SM has a danger of tapping into self esteem issues to the point of becoming actually abusive (as opposed to mock abusive). Any dom(me) that does that is abusing their position, any sub that lets it happen is being irresponsible.
 
 
Ganesh
10:35 / 14.03.03
Don't try and reconcile your sexual fantasies with your political belief, certainly; acting out or ritualising those fantasies, as Lurid says, usually demands a modicum of compromise. Avoid the broad stereotypes ('sub' = 'disempowered' = 'no individuality') or, more usefully, use those parts of the stereotypes that work for you and your partner(s). Keep talking, and remember it's only a game...
 
 
Mysterious Question
12:21 / 14.03.03
To clarify - by a liberatory sexual agenda I was thinking about the kind of completely care-free (but not uncaring) attitude to sex found in "The Sexual Life of Catherine M", or, to take it further, Burroughs and Bey. I believe in this life: I am not sure I have the courage to live it.

My problem with the non-violence issue is that, as a complete pacifist, I worry I am buying into the culture of 'acceptable' violence - but, if my sexual agenda is sorted, I guess it shouldn't be any worse than watching an action movie (or, for relevance, rather enjoying seeing all the tanks on the telly at the moment). Separating the actual from the role-play.
 
 
that
12:27 / 14.03.03
I'd be hugely more worried about liking all the tanks on the telly than about liking pervy sex... Everyone is right, what they've said about subbing - it can be an empowering experience, being true to yourself and your sexual preferences - Mister Disco said it very well on a thread a while ago - anyone know where it was?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:13 / 14.03.03
I think maybe the example of a violent film or, for a bit more interactivity, a violent video game is a pretty good one. From my limited understanding, BDSM is...hmmm...mimetic of violence, physical and emotional, possibly? - in much the same way that these things are, but it is easier to feel closer to the object of representation because you are replicating the mechanical processes as well (hitting, being hit, insulting, being insulted, and so on). However, the things that define violence as *violence*, rather than just hitting, such as the absence of volition, the unsought aggression, shit of that nature, is not there.

So, mimesis and play are able to interact with the acts to create what might be called a "safe space" , or at least a "safer space". Somebody might be running a knife over your body, but you can be reasonably confident that they are not going to kill you with it, becasue you agreed about that beforehand. Safe, sane and consensual, kind of thing.

Of course (devil's advocate hat) you could argue that BDSM enthusiasts are ipso facto not competent to judge what is safe or to give consent, because their sexual desires are clearly unhealthy, but personally I think it would be a hard sell, certainly at the lower end of BDSM. Possibly the question "this person wants to be mutilated - can they be judged competent to consent to an act of mutilation" would be contentious...

Play strikes me as a very important element here - the disjunction between personae and interrelational models seems to have a distancing effect - if you are playing mistress of pain for two hours in the day, then the other 22 of cups of tea and tetris orgies serve to distance and contrast. It's why I struggle with the idea of the 24-7 BDSM thing - it seems somehow humourless, although I'm certainly not claiming the right to judge whether it is "right" or "wrong" - just seems to be a far different animal than the similar mechanisms of a cross-sectional view might suggest...
 
 
D'Israeli
11:19 / 15.03.03
I'd agree with the 'keep talking' advice - I'm actually interested in distinguishing between concepts of B/D and those of S/M, though.

The former, as I understand it, comes complete with a system of boundaries that already exist in various forms in other aspects of social interaction, and that, as a consequence, are easy to adhere to and retain. It might be relatively easy and safe for a neophyte to leave certain 'rules' unsaid or assumed once safe levels of play have been agreed, especially if you know your partner outside of the game - at least, that's as I've always experienced it.

S/M, on the other hand, I'm a little hazy on... it's not something I'm into or know much about, so I fall victim to the nagging sense of worry and discomfort that most people outside or unfamiliar with the scene inevitably display, which is odd for me, to be honest. I tend to find my boundary between behaviour I understand and behaviour I don't is best summed up by spectating on the act of biting - no problem, lovely, completely fine with it up until blood is drawn, at which point I'm suddenly uneasy. Obviously everyone does their own thing, and not everyone falls into such an easily defined B/D area as me, but if anyone could clarify their own approach (don't need graphic detail, just a better idea of your own attitude/feeling about the subject as it affects you), I'd really appreciate learning more.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:49 / 15.03.03
Cholister - the Mister Disco post you may be referring to can be found here - actually, reading that I think you're thinking of an even older one, but it's probably a good thread to read in conjunction with this one anyway. Oh, hang on, more likely you mean this one, which is also worth reading and in some places very funny.
 
 
NotBlue
17:12 / 22.03.03
Posited -

1) How do I reconcile the ideas of 'qi' or tantra, the witholding of sexual energy, with a liberatory sexual agenda?


Like going to the gym and working out, dont fuck or wank if you are ill or low, and be aware that like walking a distance, it will take up energy, but has good and bad aspects and relate this to your own life at the specific point in time.
 
 
gravitybitch
19:19 / 22.03.03
1) How do I reconcile the ideas of 'qi' or tantra, the witholding of sexual energy, with a liberatory sexual agenda?

By understanding that if you really support the right of consenting adults to do what they want in private (understanding that public sex out in the middle of the street takes away the right of the audience to consent), if that is important, then you must have the ability to withold or say no.

It may look like I'm mashing two of your questions together, but I'm really not - they're just closely related. Some of the liberatory aspects of subbing come from the ability to choose to submit, which is something I'm still learning about... If you can say no to something without guilt or fear of repercussions, then it opens up the ability to say yes wholeheartedly and without coercion, give fully informed consent. In the case of subbing, it just looks like you're agreeing to suspend your right to say no because you're saying yes ahead of time.

Back to tantra and qi and Bey and sex without guilt... Again, I think it boils down to what YOU want, and why. This is a hyper-sexualized culture with sex used to sell pretty much everything other than diapers, and there's an undercurrent of coercion to it all - you're not getting enough, you're not with the right sort of girl/guy, you're a hopelessly conservative asexual robot if you don't want [whatever] right now!! One way of stepping out of that trap is to consciously choose partner(s) who don't fit the prescribed sales pitch, as in Burroughs and Bey. But there's a Yin to that Yang, which is to choose "not." Is it really liberatory to feel that you must be having sex?

Good luck - deconstructing Catholic guilt takes a while!
 
 
Disco is My Class War
03:27 / 28.03.03
I won't even have a go at answering the first and third questions, but the second interest me a little. Why don't you interrogate your 'individualist' politics before you start worrying about how the way you want to fuck fits in with them? Liberal individualism is a scam. (For the record, Burroughs wasn't a liberal.)
 
 
Babooshka
14:33 / 28.03.03
Mister Disco: Interesting premise, "Liberal individualism is a scam"...I'd love it if you could unpack that a bit, and show us if/how it relates to BDSM.

Are you suggesting that the concept of humans as free and morally autonomous individuals is fallacious, which could mean that one's choice or 'right' to dominate or submit to another is not as 'egalitarian' as many participants in BDSM may personally feel it to be?

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing...I'd just like to hear more from you on this. Thanks.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
09:34 / 31.03.03
Ah, to unpack.

Firstly, I always find it odd when people ask how to reconcile their politics with what they desire. A static ideology is totally useless as a *political* tool, I reckon -- even less when it comes to how you like to fuck. Context is everything. Politics is always strategic. So is desire. But desire is boundless, and so are the possibilities of pleasure. If it gets you off to be tied up and forced to suck someone's cock or have to endure insane amounts of pain until you're screaming for mercy, then do it. It says nothing about your political practices or your belief in freedom.

Second, individualism comes from liberalism which an offshoot of capitalist ideology that says, 'everyone should be equal.' When everyone is so manifestly not equal under capital, doesn't it follow to question the liberal individualism that posits everyone's 'choice' as the marker of their so-called equality and/or freedom? I don't think we necessarily have the separation, the autonomy, necessary, to be able to make an 'informed choice to consent.'

Lastly... Like all well-behaved kinksters, I've probably talked about consent here before, but I'm getting more and more suspicious of it as a workable concept. Simply, some people don't want to play with total consent. Sometimes total consent, a constant checking-in process, becomes boring and prevents the pleasurable, icky, humiliating, scary risk of submitting. When play is about putting your trust in someone, maybe you'll find that you don't want to 'consent' to what your top is about to do to you. Maybe you want them to do it, whether you say no or not. That's okay. It's not wrong, not evil, not unsafe. It happens. Do it with someone who deserves your trust, is all.

(And here I am certainly not advocating that tops should be able to walk all over their bottoms just because the notion of consent is riddled with holes. To begin with, certainly, 'testing' for consent is incredibly important. But the longer you play with someone the more you'll probably find that testing for consent happens less. You'll negotiate about scenes less, or you won't negotiate about them at all.)
 
 
Mysterious Question
20:25 / 02.04.03
I believe that it is necessary to reconcile my sexual and social politics because I have no desire to live in two worlds - while I have no wish to shout my private fetishes from the rooftops (or tell them to my friends for tht matter), I want to know that if they were in the light I should feel no shame.

I am also fascinated by some stuff I've been reading about in a book called 'Queer Burroughs' by Jamie Russell - a queer reading of the Burroughs canon. It's fascinating, and highly recommended. One idea that really interested me was some stuff on Foucault, denouncing the genitocentric conception of the sexual act, and suggesting S&M as a method for extending sexuality to the whole body. I found this interesting because I have problems with my (mostly female) friends' belief that only penetrative sex counts as 'sex'. So they'll go to bed with someone, get nekkid, and fool around a few times before they 'have sex'.

I'd noticed this 'genitocentrism' already as it had never seemed logical (particularly to gay sex) that 'sex' has to be penetrative. How (or what) do you feel?

[And for the record, I said 'liberatory' not 'liberal'.]
 
  
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