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Death

 
  

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Scrambled Password Bogus Email
14:13 / 19.05.06
The Book of Liberation through Understanding in the Between

and

Groundhog Day
 
 
Ticker
18:47 / 19.05.06
The urge toward death can be symbolically overlaid with the cycle of seasons. You can pick afterlife or next life for this exercise.

Time and again I've pondered if the collective desire for the Apocalypse/Timewave is a deeper version of this call for renewal. If on one hand we dread the end of things and yet long for the big clean up crew to set things to right. To have the moments framed and ordered cohesively, the strands cut and the skein wound yet somehow knowing that even the End is not an end. Do we get weary if the skies never darken and the leaves never fall? (Though folks seem fine in California...)

I've come to see the Death Deities as more essential in my life than I think my ancestors would have. As Archetypes, They are usually the keepers of treasure/wisdom and to enter Their kingdom for a quest is to risk everything including your potentially immortal soul. To provide the ritual death is perhaps the most profound thing you can do for another human magically speaking.

Our quiet contemplation is mirrored by our public angst and we of the west seem to have a passive aggressive denial based affair with the big D. We're engaged in activities that challenge our shit to sack ratio for sustainable living and yet we claim to revile Death as a goal.

Ironic, no?
 
 
ngsq12
20:15 / 19.05.06
Death is the great answer.

In all arguments as to what comes after.

We will ALL find out sooner or later.
 
 
Quantum
20:50 / 19.05.06
The Coleman-Smith/Rider Waite Tarot trump shows different attitudes to Death on his pale horse. The king is already trampled showing the impotence of wealth and power, the Bishop pleads and prays when he should be confident of a heavenly afterlife, the maiden resigns herself fatalistically, but the little girl is innocent. She looks up at death, unafraid and almost hopeful.
The two towers on the cliff are also in the Moon, and nowhere else. What's that about? I think of it as the hope of resurrection arising from the unconscious, but there's a city horizon in the Death card that's not in the Moon, representing the land beyond death which reminds me of the city behind the Chariot.
 
 
Ticker
09:55 / 20.05.06
The two towers on the cliff are also in the Moon, and nowhere else. What's that about? I think of it as the hope of resurrection arising from the unconscious, but there's a city horizon in the Death card that's not in the Moon, representing the land beyond death which reminds me of the city behind the Chariot.

Quantum, that's a great bit of brain candy to mull over right there. thank ya.
 
 
33
03:44 / 02.08.06
I think death or awareness of death is the last chance to live before that moment is gone, it clears away all the bullshit.

For me I have built my life around because I am ill and suffering and because I remember those things that cant be any more and how precious they were.

Sometimes like now I can even sit back and almost rest, for once in my life not fight or struggle or think about how i can somehow beat this.

I am not scared of death but the unkown yes and more than that suffering , isolation from my true self ..

If I could do one thing now that I fought so very long it would be to find a good way to die instead of living in fear..
 
 
Ticker
19:52 / 02.08.06
That's an interesting idea 33. Have you been actively researching what you think would distinguish a good death from a bad one for you?
 
 
33
14:59 / 05.08.06
Hi xk-

I dont have stable web access so I cant say as much on this as I would like just now.

I have looked into this - yes

The troulbe for me is just now and since my bad turn of events that have lead to my sorry state is inertia and in particualair soul fragmentation / bizaree physical health prolems that are making it hard to verify if not impossible, namely because I cant utilise my body in the way required.

For me there may be ways round this but none of them without risks or straightforward ..

At the core of finding a good way to die for me is achieving or do something that matters again , a legacy or an act that consolidates everything I've worked so hard to better..

Ultimately its also about building momentum and energy needed to get to that point or even start it and to that end I have explored ways of heailing that might allow me to do that.

I dont know if I would risk entheogens again but chemicals do interest me unfortunately I dont hace access to them and in particulair one a friend used effectively - ..

What i do try to do is use poetry - words when I am well express passings of time as they happen to me in the moment and explore where that will take me..
 
 
brother george
18:06 / 03.03.07
It may sound a bit silly or downright dim-witted but at some point a certain analogy popped in my head.

Can you recall how you felt when you got out from a really oppressive situation, particularly an employment-related one, and moved on, the world opened again for you, etc ?
How everything now is just a fading bad memory and you don't care anymore for the sadistic asshole you had for a boss. Now everything's cool you know, cause you *moved the fuck on* with your life, and now you may even feel remorse and think "It's ok".

The "leaving behind stuff while feeling ok and silly with the now irrelevant details and situations that made your life a living hell back then" seems particularly linked with some aspect of Death for me.
That and that feeling you have when you recover from a lengthy fever.
 
 
Scarlett_156
17:22 / 13.03.07
Few philosophical notions of what death may or may not "mean" give us any kind of a handle when confronted with the thing itself. This is something I realized after one of the times I technically "died", i.e., had only an extremely faint pulse and had stopped breathing, each time for a space of about 15 to 20 minutes. (Drug overdose, in case you are wondering-- not intentional, just me being my usual careless self.)

It took me a day or two after the experience before I started to remember what had happened to me at Death's Door. It's not something I'll easily forget.

I don't want to die, but never again will I fear it-- it's just as natural a thing as being born, and just like being born it's far from pleasant, but you DO get through it.

After the second time this happened a very unusual thing started to occur, to wit, I started to encounter dead people, usually but not always during dreams. Sometimes it would be someone I already knew was dead-- which I tend to discount to my imagination and maybe whatever I had for dinner that evening-- but a lot of the time I would only learn that the person I had talked to in my dream was dead AFTER I had dreamed about him or her.

Ask me if that's not weird! lol

My encounters with the dead are usually not as dramatic as pictured in song, story, and the video medium (haha). In one dream I was ushered into a place like a minimal-security prison where I sat at a table, as though for a visit with an inmate. Presently a man was escorted in and sat down to talk to me. I recognized an acquaintance that I had not seen, or really even thought about, for a number of years-- he was the guitar player in another local band. We had a short and strange visit during which he made the remark "I had no idea it was going to be like this, I wish it could have turned out differently." Something a guy would say in prison, of course, right?

A few days later I was talking to a friend on the phone and mentioned that I had dreamed about this guy. My friend was somewhat stunned and told me that this person had died a couple of years back from a heroin overdose. That was (and I have no reason to lie to you about this) the first time I had heard this news.

I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.
 
 
EmberLeo
19:14 / 13.03.07
Do we get weary if the skies never darken and the leaves never fall? (Though folks seem fine in California...)

Just a quip to the quip: I am Seasonally Affected and live in California, and let me tell you, the skies damned well darken, and our lawn is covered with leaves in the fall.

--Ember--
 
 
Leigh Monster loses its cool
02:09 / 14.03.07
XK, I'd love to hear more about your take on the "urge toward death." I feel like it's a large part of my existence, although not on as apocalyptic a level as you describe, more a personal one. I always assumed it had to do with the passive aspect of my nature, wanting the answers to be given to me without my having to work for them, or wanting to find my place without having to look for it. The transformation of death is enacted by the powers that be upon the passive dying.

I remember being very drawn toward the idea of death when I was younger--really young, like four. It seemed to be sort of the ultimate conferrer of grace, very romanticized and pretty in my mind.

I do feel like attraction to or longing for death is actually a life affirming thing. When I feel it less also tends to be when I am less passionate about life. This is not a particularly original idea, but it's a feeling that I don't understand very well and I'd love to see it discussed.

The urge toward death can be symbolically overlaid with the cycle of seasons reminded me of this:

The Wheel


Through winter-time we call on spring,
And through the spring on summer call,
And when abounding hedges ring
Declare that winter's best of all;
And after that there's nothing good
Because the spring-time has not come ---
Nor know that what disturbs our blood
Is but our longing for the tomb.

- W.B. Yeats
 
 
Scarlett_156
05:43 / 14.03.07
(quote)I do feel like attraction to or longing for death is actually a life affirming thing.(/quote)

I respectfully disagree. Attraction to death may be a characteristic of certain emotions one experiences in life, but it does not affirm life.

Every time in my life that I've wanted to die or cause the death of another, I didn't feel the least bit chummy toward life, much less wanting to affirm it. Fiat nox, y'all.
 
 
Papess
11:55 / 14.03.07
Attraction to death may be a characteristic of certain emotions one experiences in life, but it does not affirm life.

Perhaps, and I am not certain if loai meant it in this way, but as a practioner, Death can be used as an advisor and reaffirm life. If one is truly aware of their imminent death, it rather shifts one's priorities to more life affirming activities.

I think there is a distinction between "death-savvy" and suicidal, which I am probably not able to effectively convey at the moment, except to say that; embracing one's death is not the same as self-destruction.
 
 
Leigh Monster loses its cool
13:11 / 14.03.07
Thanks, Justrix. I probably just wasn't being articulate enough, and attraction may have been the wrong word to use. I meant the perception of death as a beautiful thing, to be fully experienced when it arrives rather than feared; also the idea that life is sacred because it encompasses something as magical and mysterious as death.
 
 
symbiosis
14:30 / 14.03.07
All culture, no matter what its form, is a response to, and an attempt to understand, death.

I once asked a philosophy undergrad what 'Phenomonology of the Spirit' by Hegel was about, and he said, 'My teacher said the whole thing could be summed up as ''What we know as civilization began as a way to rever the dead.'' '

Ever play the video game Civ? The beginning of the technology tree is 'Pottery' and after that comes 'Ceremonial Burial.'

When I'm at a funeral of someone I knew, I am much more comfortable because I know how they would want to be grieved. But at the funeral of a stranger, I just want to leave. What's odd is when some people don't want to be grieved, and then the people who are strangers there think I'm being lighthearted and just want to inherit something.

My magical means of dealing with it is musical. I have a song I wrote at the time of all my grandparent's deaths that fits, encapsulates the mood. Death for my grandma was a great relief because she knew she had to go and was in pain, and I think that should be celebrated. But for my grandpa, who had Alzheimer's and had to be in restraints for the last 6 months of his life, was very painful for everyone. My grandma's song was an anthem, but my grandpa's song was kindof a ditty about another time in his life that needed to be remembered in light of what happened to him.

The second (magical) way I deal with it is mythology. Your ancestors have a mythology to them, just like we wish we knew more about whoever rode over on the mayflower(or who didn't), two generations from now everyone's going to wonder why they were born where they were, and are you going to have kept the story of your genes?

-

Here's something I wonder though, maybe for another thread, is Alzheimer's a good way to go? I met a nurse who says it is, but having seen my grandpa disappear before our eyes, and he was clearly very frustrated by it, I just can't believe that.
 
 
Ticker
18:35 / 14.03.07
I think we could have a thread exploring 'a good way to go' where we could all ponder what form the Exit door will take.
 
 
Rollright
12:48 / 27.05.07
I've never really believed in death as oblivion of consciousness. It just never seemed to fit, somehow.

I have poked into the corners of the subject quite a bit -- learned some mediumism, done a bit of astral projection, read up on some reincarnation evidence stuff, felt/heard the odd ghost, looked at near-death experience stuff, even tried a bit of EVP. I found plenty of stuff to suggest that a level of consciousness survives death and comes back later for another game.

I have thought about death (and the implications of survival) a fair bit, right from early childhood. I try to avoid strong beliefs in general -- I prefer opinions, so I can go on thinking about things -- but by the time I'd got to 18 or 19, I had a fairly clear, involved picture of what I thought was most likely to be going on. The one thing I never did was read any new-age stuff on the topic -- it just didn't interest me, although I couldn't tell you why.

Last year, a friend pressured me into reading Michael Newton's book "Journey of Souls". In brief, Newton claims to be a psychotherapist who drifted along into regression as a mental tool, and then accidentally regressed a client into the "Life Between Lives". Having done it once, he got curious and did it several thousand times, using the sessions to quiz his subjects about the other side. In doing so, he says he has built up an absolutely consistent, complex picture of between-lives reality. He maintains that everyone he has regressed has described exactly the same stuff, regardless of conscious religious belief, nationality, acculturation, &c &c.

That may indeed be so.

The bit that absolutely rocked me was that this other side, as described, was almost exactly identical to the framework I'd worked out over all those years. There's a couple of minor elements of his big picture which I don't quite agree with, but otherwise... Frankly, reading his book felt exactly like coming home.

Which was nice.

In some ways, I find the idea of a reincarnatory cycle rather unfortunate. The unshakeable implication is that all that stuff you'd rather just sweep under the carpet does matter You can't just be utterly self-indulgent, or whatever. Even if I'm the one holding myself to account -- which is my opinion -- that doesn't mean I'm going to let myself off lightly. There are good sides to it too, of course: second chances, old friends, yadda. All of the options have their ups and downs, but survival certainly isn't a 'Get Out Of Jail Free'!

T.

PS: *waves cheerfully* Hello Barbelith!
 
 
_+&*: Nimbus Fool :*&+_
07:33 / 08.06.07
In all honesty- scares the living piss out of me. Ruddy stuff. Whew. Interesting to come across this thread though, at a time like this. I've been having 'death trips' the last couple weeks. Laying with my amore and basking in the utter brilliance that life is and then my rational mind crushes it with the knowledge that one day it all has to end. Knowing that at one moment in my life it will be my last and no matter how hard I fight it makes no difference. fact. I almost died the other day and it snapped me out of my trips. Before I couldn't think about it without going into an anxiety attack but after getting hit by a car (for the second time in the same place!!) and not getting scratched (totaled my bike though) I figured it was a message from the universe. As hyatt says, "death is an absolute, Life is conditional."

I think my fear of death from an early age is what caused me some of the worst hang-ups and fears through adolescence. Without that fear though, I wouldn't have gone through multiple initiations (never ending) and grown into the adult I am.

What I tell my friends is- I'm polytheistic, I believe in pantheon upon pantheon- someones gotta take me at the end!

Though in casual conversation- when people speak of their fear of hell. hah! I would rather be sentient and tortured endlessly until judgment day with the flesh stripped off my bones than to have the entire accumulated experience of my life vanish in a poof like a sparking match as the meat decays slowly.
 
 
illmatic
07:50 / 08.06.07
Rollright: So what is this framework exactly? I'm a little skeptical to be honest - experience is plastic, all the more so in conditions of trance or hypnosis.

And also re. reincarnation: you said it grants the unshakeable implication is that all that stuff you'd rather just sweep under the carpet does matter. You can't just be utterly self-indulgent, or whatever - I don't know, about this - are you stating there's some kind of karmic principle at work that will affect our next lives?

This doesn't tally with my understanding of the Buddhist conception of reincarnation - it's kind of "karma free" AFAIK.

Anyway, welcome to the board.
 
  

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