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Death

 
  

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illmatic
10:47 / 13.03.03
Inspired by this thread I thought I’d ask people here about their thought and feelings on death from a magical point of view. Has the prospect of your own non-existence shaped given rise to any magical practice of meta-physical/spiritual beliefs?

It certainly has with me. I've never done any formal magickal work with this area but the prospect of death is something I’ve thought about since a young age, and this has definitely shaped some of my spiritual ideas. An awareness of life’s passing makes me appreciate and enjoy it more. It makes me grateful that I’m here at all. An contemplation of death and dying gives me feelings of profundity that I can’t - don’t want to - express in words. Dealing with bereavement and the prospect of one’s own death would say seem like major points in one’s own development. This isn’t meant to sound like we should just “use” these experiences for some horrible “personal growth” quest – rather it’s simple recognition of how much these events can affect us.

I note that Pete Caroll mentions some uses for Death “god forms” (10p in the swearbox!) in his Liber Kaos, seemingly to get closer to the mysteries of death, disease and ageing – in part to banish them. Has anybody ever worked with any entities with this intention?

A major part of all religious ceremony of all kinds is, obviously, rites of passage. Birth, adolescence, marriage and death. How would you like to go or see your loved ones go? One of the best things I ever did for my Dad was made sure he had a Humanist funeral, as he was a confirmed atheist. There was nothing extraneous to his life in this – just family, friends and our shared memories. This might be outside some people’s definitions of “magick” but it was certainly magickal to me.

Finally, I suppose there’s the question of ancestor worship. I know there’s a few people here with experience of shamanic practice, so I wonder how you relate to this idea. Being a westerner in the 21st century, I don’t really have much connection with my ancestors beyond a generation or two. I’ll commemorate those I have known who’ve died in simple ways on occasion, just a candle or some incense every now and again. I feel some kind of connection with magickal predecessors as well.

Any thoughts?
 
 
Vadrice
13:50 / 13.03.03
death is to us (the living) the ultimate recapitulation.
Our first capitulation is our birth- when we become a living idea. without death, that idea remains formless- transient. Death is the only rational codification of life.
From a magickal standpoint, death is the ultimate gnosis, I suppose. So ultimate that it takes it too far- to the point of dispursal. But Ultimates work that way.
There's something very pure about death of any sort, which is why many (especially the Christian faith) view life as impure and thus "dirty."

But from the editor's standpoint, the unfortunate thing about one's own death, is you can't go back and fix anythign after it's happened. There's no chance for further discourse or refinement accept in the reception (memories of the living).
 
 
Rev. Wright
21:53 / 13.03.03
Interview conducted two months prior to his death:

Q: You have a number of plans, when the time comes...

Timothy Leary: Well, they're in operation right now. You'll notice we're assembling all of the paraphernelia and equipment that people have used over the years to study out-of-body experiences, including dying. Over there you can see the isolation tank, designed by my good friend John Lilly. I try to log an hour or so in that every day, because it's like an out-of-body experience, it's like a death experience. So silent..and you float... and you can also click something and speak your words through... There's this area between when you leave your body and your body things go and your brain goes, 12-15 minutes there. And we're trying to colonize and explore this area.

Q: That's new terrain...

Timothy Leary: Yeah, the human mind. [Announces triumphantly:] The brain is the new terrain! Human beings have not understood that the brain is different and must be explored just like the outer world or the outer galaxy...

Q: Do you still consider yourself an optimist?

Timothy Leary: [disdainfully] What are these words... I'm suicidally depressed at least a minute an hour. I go through 'em all. I'm not an "optimist." I try to scan all the possible emotions. yes, I deeply deeply believe that the human brain was designed by DNA. We have this incredible brain, 120 billion neurons, the complexity is beyond our ability to conceive. The challenge of the human species is to learn how to operate this wonderful equipment. We've always measured the success of a species in terms of the killing ability. Now you can measure many different species by their ability to communicate and to use their brains and the language of the brain, the food of the brain is light. That's why we use these words so much. That's why Retinal Logic [the Website development group that is building Leary's website] strings lights everywhere. You'll notice in all of the bushes there's lights. Light. Because that is the original, it comes from the sun.

Q: Okay, I see that...

Timothy Leary: See: you "see" that. Thank you! "I see"! I see too! [laughter]

Q: And you feel you've made progress in helping us understand how to use our brains.

Timothy Leary: Everything I'm saying is paraphrasing and carrying on McLuhan. He said that the function is, it's all communication, and the medium that you use to communicate defines the society or the species you belong to. If you just speak, that's okay; if you speak and make signs, that's even better; and if you get into the oral, you play music, you get into the whole range of the complexity of the various media. We try to explore all of these.
 
 
LVX23
20:54 / 17.03.03
In the process of my own self-initiation, mostly between 1990 and 1997, I was drawn closer to death as a symbol, particularly in the form of the scorpion, but also as Panphage. I had usually credited this to the fact that I was eating a lot of mushrooms in that period, and the nature of the mushroom is to feed on death - it is the decomposer, turning death into life, hence their abundance on the forest floor among decaying matter. I often symbolized and intellectualised the concept of death in its various forms, usually falling back to a buddhist detatchment and general criticism of western sociol phobias surrounding the end of life.

But in the past 3 years I've watched the passing of two people first-hand. The first, a father - I rested my hand on the chest of his cooling body. The second, a mother - I held her foot as the eeg stopped beeping, her body making one last gasp of air. They were both just under 50 years of age. In each case I commited myself to the moment and tried to attune myself to the Spirit releasing from its vehicle.

The aftermath of these experiences has been profound and transformational. It's one thing to talk and intellectualize about your personal attitude towards death, but it's another altogether to witness it first-hand - there is perhaps no more powerful reminder of the transience of our presence on this plane. Time takes on a very thick and heavy form, and Fear draws on the power of acknowledging that impending, inescapable doom. For some time I felt as if I were reliving The Fall - the Eden of my youthful idealism and naivete was shattered upon a cold, hard stone of materialism compelled by a fatalistic inertia towards death. The symbols of transformation - the scorpion, the phoenix - were showing themsleves again, but without the detached perspective of inexperience. The sting of the scorpion was sharp and venomous, the fires of the phoenix bringing flesh to a searing boil, careless of the ashen remains of Life. The shaman was passing through the Abyss.

It remained to me to determine the meaning of these events, the value in death, the metaphor behind the passage. After about a year or so of torment, emptiness, fear, and the persistent disillusionment and questioning of every aspect of my day-to-day habitualized existence, I've ultimately chosen to reassert my spiritualized world view and imagine those experiences as a second level of intiation. I talked the talk, now I can walk the walk.

Life and Death are two sides of the same coin - here's my take (Note that some terms may sound vaguely religious. This is only by coincidence):
The Will of the Absolute is to Creation. Consciousness is the Witness of that Creation. Death, as a merging with the Absolute, is marked by Unity. Life, as the realisation of Creation, is multiplicity. The Will of the Absolute focuses into a point of concrescence to enter the Kingdom of Earth. Life is born and it is a manifestation in duality of the Unity of the Absolute. The child is unaware of itself nor does is differentiate - it is fresh from Unity and knows no dualism. Physical, mental, and emotional development proceeds and the individual emerges, functioning in Duality, observing differences. Thus a new facet of consciousness emerges through which the Absolute may perceive itself. But life is not about individuals. It is about creation, evolution, differentiation. It is the play of the Absolute in the realm of matter, impelled by the inertia of Time into ever more novel forms. As such, the individual is simply a temporary vector, a momentary act of Creation played out on a timeless and universal stage. Eventually the concrescence of the individual begins to be reabsorbed back into the Absolute. Life diminishes, the form decays, and the energy is dispersed into the plenum. The Spirit of the individual merges back into the Absolute, shedding it's skin of uniqueness for the wholeness of pure light, and the engulfing blackness beyond. But neither side is true nor illusory. Just as all things, One is the complement of the Other. The Truth is the oscillatory interplay of the Dyad, the whole far greater than its parts. Apprehension of the Absolute is only possible within its walls, after duality is resolved completely.

Death is the reward of Creation. Life is the playground of the Absolute. This is the belief of my Self as a witness to Creation.
 
 
LVX23
21:07 / 17.03.03
BTW, here are some of my influences for the above:
- Lot's of Crowley, writings and ritual
- "I Am That", Sri Nisargaddata
- "The Starseed Transmissions", Ken Kerey
- "Canticle for Liebowitz", Walter Miller
- psychedelic shamanism
- Atu 2 of Thoth, The High Priestess
- Atu 13, Death
- Atu 18, The Moon
- "Eyes of the World", Robert Hunter
 
 
gingerbop
21:14 / 17.03.03
Its not magickal, but the other night i had a dream in which i died. It was not at all an unpleasant experience.. It was just like living but i felt lighter. Nobody could hear me or see me but after i got used it it, it was quite cool. Its only a dream but i feel much less scared of death now.
 
 
LVX23
21:51 / 17.03.03
Some aboriginal tribes maintain that the waking world is an illusion and the dream world is the true reality.
 
 
illmatic
11:38 / 18.03.03
Chris: Thanks for the response. I haven’t had time yet to digest all the philosophical/metaphysical thinking involved but I’ll try and do so, and then get back to you. Certainly, the bereavements I’ve experienced have influenced my philosophical / magickal thoughts and feelings. I can empathise you very heavily here. My dad’s death was followed by a lot of powerful dreams, which featured him as dead or dying – it was as if my unconscious was that shocked, it had to take extra time out to deal with it. It was very weird – I felt like there was definitely a process of some sort going on beneath the surface that I didn’t have access to.

A close friend of mine who I admired a great deal died the year following. This upset me more in a way, because we was closer (well, in a more direct way, than that distant family affection). He had no prior illness, he wasn’t old (my dad was in his mid 70’s) and it came totally out of the blue. I was reading a book of essays by Richard Wilhelm the other day – he says the Chinese feel that a man dies like this, it’s as if his life has been torn, rather than the slow completion of old age. This made me really nihilistic for a period of time. It sounds like you experienced soemthing similar. I couldn’t see the point of anything if it’s just eaten up by this big absence at the end of our lives. Eventually, I got out of this by thinking that we’re here, so that it itself must have meaning (or is capable of becoming a subject of meaning). The purpose is not to preserve or create something eternal, but to recognise what we’re doing and our e purpose grows from that, in itself, and it's just for now. Transient but vastly significant at the same time. I don’t know if I’ve articulated that that well. May come back to it if I get a better handle on it.
 
 
Quantum
12:55 / 18.03.03
Good topic, great post Chris23!
From a more detached intellectual perspective (since I have little firsthand experience of Death) almost all Shamanic traditions demand a symbolic death and rebirth, and recognise the necessity of keeping death close. The more you reject and fear it the harder it will be on you when it eventually comes I think.
It is also common in magical traditions to treat Death as a person or deity. Don Juan (in Castaneda's work) refers to Death as being over his left shoulder always, constantly at his side, and contends we each have a personal death- our specific death is always with us, watching until the right moment. I find that quite comforting, like a familiar or Daimon (in the neoplatonic/Amber Spyglass sense of Daimon) being with you- a personal service.
I think a recognition of Death is essential to a fulfilling life. When I see people miserable or procrastinating, or wasting their energy in futility I want to quote Marcus Aurelius at them;
"Do not act as if you had ten thousand years! Death stands at your shoulder!" (quote from memory so probably innaccurate)

"Remember how long thou hast been putting off these things, and how often thou hast received an opportunity from the gods, and yet dost not use it. Thou must now at last perceive of what universe thou art a part, and of what administrator of the universe thy existence is an efflux, and that a limit of time is fixed for thee, which if thou dost not use for clearing away the clouds from thy mind, it will go and thou wilt go, and it will never return." MA book 2 (quote from the net)

Also relevant;
"Though thou shouldst be going to live three thousand years, and as many times ten thousand years, still remember that no man loses any other life than this which he now lives, nor lives any other than this which he now loses. The longest and shortest are thus brought to the same. For the present is the same to all, though that which perishes is not the same; and so that which is lost appears to be a mere moment."
"...the longest liver and he who will die soonest lose just the same." (ibid)
in fact here's the site and it's full of good stuff.

I watched Waking Life the other day, someone believed that the 12 minutes or so of brain activity after you die is the dream of your life. I think they were referencing Leary, but it left an impression on me, and relates to the Dreamtime idea nicely. Life as a dream, Death as waking.

What about the relation between sleeping and Death? ('Sleep; those little slices of Death, oh how I loathe them!' Poe I think)
Why are we afraid to die but not to sleep?
 
 
DuskySally
22:03 / 07.05.06
*bump*
 
 
ghadis
22:40 / 07.05.06
Well that is dead spooky!

I was just on another forum minutes ago talking about death and thought i'd come over to Barbelith and look for, or start a thread on the matter when i find that one has just been bumped from a couple of years ago. Brrrr!

So, without actually reading this thread (i will go back and do that in a moment) i'll quickly post what i was thinking which was this...

All culture, no matter what its form, is a response to, and an attempt to understand, death.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:41 / 07.05.06
Any advance on *bump*, DuskySally? You must have something on your mind to be booting this thread to the top again. Perhaps you could share.
 
 
ghadis
23:09 / 07.05.06
Apart from the death and culture stuff...

I went to a funeral of a friend this week. He wasn't a close friend, more of a mate of a mate really. But it was very emotional to say the least. The thing about it was that he was quite young and his death was relatively out of the blue. He was fine one moment, playing the piano as it were (literally as he was a music teacher) and the next moment he had a brain tumour and died 8 months later.

But the Wake was really quite beautiful. All his students and the mates he'd played with making music. Talking about the times they'd first met him. And this guy was a BIG person. He made an impression! On everything he'd done, everyone he'd met. He was a big guy!

So i guess what i'm talking about is the idea of the memory and the person living on. After that i don't know, but i think that is important. The carrying on of that person through other people. Stories, anecdotes, quiet moments, memories.

The ancient Egyptians called it the Ren. The Name. I think that is quite beautiful.
 
 
ghadis
00:20 / 08.05.06
And yes, DuskySally. I'm quite interested in your reason for the bumpage as well. Quite timely and resonant with my thinking tonight. What are your thoughts?
 
 
Sekhmet
14:03 / 08.05.06
I'm with ghadis on the spooky coincidence train... I've been processing concepts of Death lately as well, and just yesterday finished reading His Dark Materials for the first time... Quantum mentioned the Amber Spyglass above, which has a lot to do with death and the world of the dead.

Temple does this shit all the time, though. We should be used to it by now, yes?


I'm shit scared of Death, because I see it as the final and ultimate loss of individual identity. I like to speculate about various versions of the Afterlife, but I don't think I actually believe in any of them; if I'm honest with myself, it seems to me that death is either the point at which the individual consciousness rejoins the Universal consciousness (like a drop into the ocean, blah blah) or the point at which the individual consciousness simply ceases to be. Either way it gives me the screaming heebie-jeebies, because I like being alive and differentiated and individual. I like having feelings, and a body, and a personality, and a mind to think with, and fingers and skin and sense organs with which to touch the world of matter. I don't want to be lost and dissolved into a sea of Everything, and I don't want to wink out of existence like an extinguished flame; I want to be ME.

And by all accounts, half (or more) of the point of magical or spiritual practice is getting past that desire to remain oneself, going through the ego-dissolution trip and crossing the Abyss into the state where one no longer fears Death.

I know that's probably in the works, but I'm dragging my heels because I don't wanna.
 
 
DuskySally
14:31 / 08.05.06
I bumped this because I recently had the existential crisis I seem to have every five years or so... My thoughts about death this time around have probably been very much influenced by reading too much of Greg Egan's "hard science" fiction. When I think of death I see a void, I see unawareness. And then, looking back at life, it seems incredibly absurd. I don't know if this is something that can be reconciled, but I wanted to hear other's ideas.
 
 
Anthony
20:33 / 11.05.06
i honestly think that death is a choice. we don't have to die if we don't want to. or we reincarnate if we want to. i have pretty decent authority on this - no less than JC - whoever believes shall have eternal life. i believe that's life here on earth. and i'll be a bit "magickal" too and say with a bit of energy vampirism or a spell or something. voodoo or what have ya.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:16 / 11.05.06
An out-of-context Bible quote and some vague mutterings about "energy vampirism" and "voodoo"? Well that's me convinced.

I'm doing a lot of death-related work at the moment. Over the Autumn/Winter term I was studying under Hela, currently I have Odin for extra tew. Lots of stuff about learning to lose one's fear of death, to embrace it whilst still striving against it. I thought I'd already done all that but it turns out I'd just been wallowing in cheap Gothic deathwishiness. I don't feel too bad, it's a common enough mistake. Learning lots of stuff about how a really good witch can utilise the places where Life and Death meet, the grey areas; about going to Hel and back for the good of the tribe. Visions of sparring with an implacable enemy. Being sat own and told to braid a suspiciosly Tollund-man-ish necklace whilst being given a lecture on the risks that a real magician must be prepared to take, and why. One foot in the grave. Allowing your own death into your life as sort of the ultimate personal trainer.

And afterwards? I used to believe that we were just worm-food at the end. I still think that, on some level, but now I have all these dead buggers talking at me I have to entertain other possibilities. Hel. Joining the Disir. A nice cozy grave-mound, somewhere scenic but handy for the buses. Whatever. Getting this life right is more important to me right now; the afterlife can take care of itself.
 
 
Quantum
23:29 / 11.05.06
DuskySally- I know what you mean, but we never worry about what happened before we were born, so why worry about what happens after you die? Why is the one void different to the other?

Anth- really? you really think you can decide not to die? Don't you think there would be more Rasputins and such if that were true? and zombies and liches and vampires pestering shoppers in the city centre? Allegedly Flamel, Comte de St Germain and others achieved immortality through magic but at least they used the tried and tested method of alchemy rather than a vague intuition that we die if we want to and reincarnate if we want to. Can I go to chocolate pudding heaven when I die? Can I reincarnate in the past as G W Bush and change history? Can I choose to stay as a ghost or is that just people who can't decide? I'd like to hear a bit more detail about your afterlife please, and why you think we need not die. I'm afraid namechecking JC isn't specific enough.
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
07:42 / 12.05.06

I don't know what's after death. But maybe our soul survives, who knows? I suppose it's a question to be prepared for the transit. Shamans say that we exist in various worlds, and that in life, we construct a "double", who carries the teachings we learn to that other worlds. I'm doing everymorning my Chi-Kung exercices, and, well, it's far from here now (I hope), when death arrives, i'll try to live it as a mistery.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:46 / 12.05.06
Anth: How much do you believe in that? Will you let a volunteer bludgeon you with a hammer for an hour or so to prove your theory? How's about swallowing 400 paracetemol and washing it down with a bottle of bleach for us? No? Don't fancy that? Thought not.
 
 
illmatic
09:43 / 12.05.06
And obviously the Christ quote is just to be taken totally literally. It isn't allegorical or anything. Actually, anth is just a troll anyway, why are we bothering?
 
 
Olulabelle
19:39 / 12.05.06
All culture, no matter what its form, is a response to, and an attempt to understand, death.

Ghadis I think that's true in some ways but I would also add 'the gift of life' in there. I think this is a very interesting idea. What in Western culture specifically points towards that for you for example?

I think that maybe this ought to have its own thread.
 
 
Feverfew
08:29 / 13.05.06
I'm having distinct issues with the concept of mortality at the moment. It's bordering on a problematic philosophical obsession with the concept of death.

My main issue is the overwhelming fear of not knowing what happens post-mortality, coupled with a psychological worry that death is random and could, theoretically, happen at any time.

Morbid, huh?

So... I sheepishly ask how I can break this cycle of pessimism or at least find ways of thinking around it. Concepts raised in this thread have been helpful - but is there any way of concentrating on celebrating life instead of fearing death?

(Also - could this be a headshop thing?)
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:18 / 13.05.06
The only way is to completely embrace it.

Once we can embrace death and face it openly, we can begin to live. Embrace death fully. Recognize that death is the natural, inevitable state. Do your mourning now. Recognize that your cat is already dead; your baby is already dead; your parents are already dead; you are already dead. Face this, truly, immersively. Live in it, absorb it, eat it, breathe it, drink it. Recognize that this is the destiny of one and all, and that it is completely, utterly inescapable.

Do not let this death stop with your friends and family. Embrace death in all and every aspect of existence. The clock, which you cherish, is smashed, destroyed, broken and dead. The business you have worked for so long is bankrupt, dead, destroyed. The house which you have spent so many years working for is a rubble, completely useless, gone.

The sum total of the universe has been swallowed into the mysterious unknown, and death is the only reality. Once you can do this, you can begin to live in, sorry for the Xtian terminology, resurrection. The cat is already dead. We have buried the cat. What would you do? What would you give if you could spend just one more day with your dead cat?

Your wife is already dead. You have just returned from burying her. What would you give for one more day to be able to tell her all of the things that you wanted to tell her, but never did? Your parents are already dead. You have just come back from the funeral parlor. What would it be like if you had one last opportunity to spend some time with them, to live with them? What would you say? What would you do? Where would you take them, what would you do with them?

That is the reality you tap into, once you embrace death. Once you recognize that everything is already dead, then every single day is a gift of infinite grace. Every breath is a death and rebirth. Every single day is that one last chance to do and be all the things you want to be--to spend the time and the relationships and the warmth with all of your dead relatives and mates. One last chance to have a giggle working in your dead, bankrupt, long-since forgotten business. One more chance, by some divine miracle, to live one last day in that house which is a crumbled, rotting, pile of dust. Then there is no mourning. There is no death. There is only resurrection. When the cat finally dies, you have already mourned the cat. When the children finally die, you have already mourned their passing. And you have lived a life of fulfillment, taking advantage of every opportunity of every moment of every day. When the miracle of resurrection has passed on, then you are at peace to recognize that things have simply returned to their natural state. You wake up one morning, and the resurrected cat is no longer there. There is no reason to grieve, because you have already buried the cat. The cat is not 'dead', because the cat was never 'born'.

Death is meant to be embraced. It is meant to be a gateway to a new birth. If we can embrace death, then our lives are transformed.

In the Case deck of the Tarot, the horse is stomping upon the crown. All of our achievements and all of our growth will not survive. All of matter and all of human creation will be swallowed up. Death affects all. Cyonara.

Who or what is afraid of this? Nothing has been created nor destroyed since the Beginning. It (which is not an It) simply is, endlessly transforming, endlessly combining and recombining, then dissipating and diverging. End. Less. Ly. (That's a long time).

The thinking structure has woven the illusion of solidity and permanence and then swallowed it hook line and sinker and now seeks refuge from the blatant and obvious facts it has worked so tirelessly to hide from its own impudent tenacity. You cannot celebrate life without also celebrating death. You cannot have pleasure without a moment of pain - your body cannot withstand pleasure any more than it can withstand pain - the signals are simply as they are, your thinking structure is the only thing judging and arbitrating on what is preferable, discriminating.

Death should be your constant advisor, the teacher to whom you defer first and foremost, the ground from which your intentions are sown, your actions grow and your experience can be harvested.

Death has chewed me up and spit me out more times than I can even remember in my own peculiar system, so I'm coming at this from a very experiential angle. It's harrowing and it's difficult and it's frightening and it's upsetting.

So called 'magic' tends to be like that, a lot, and if it ain't, you're probably not doing it right.
 
 
Feverfew
20:07 / 13.05.06
You know that that, in all seriousness, is in fact curiously helpful?

Thanks.
 
 
illmatic
07:36 / 14.05.06
That was a great post mate.
 
 
ghadis
00:03 / 16.05.06
That was a fantastic and beutiful post Whole. Echoing others, cheers for that. It's really made me think.
 
 
SteppersFan
11:41 / 18.05.06
Great thread.

I guess there's the death that is the end of one version of one's self. Death as change. That's a very scary death, but of course, you need to embrace it.

Then there's the death that is the fear of dying that babies and children often have, that gets carried into adult life, where the fear is of the withdrawl of parental affection that, carried to its end, would literally mean death. That's a horrible, scary death, not to be embraced so much as healed.

Then there's actual physical death, which looks scary, and I guess is in the "a life torn" version Illz refers to, but which really isn't IMO, in the "Hecate's gift" idea of death being a blessing, the end to physical life.

One of the most important, valuable memories I have is that of seeing my father on the slab. I think of it often, especially when I'm feeling low and it's actually a very comforting thought - a grounding, orientating feeling.

Personally I'm not very worried about death any more. Pain, yes, and even more so, what will happen to the kids when I'm gone, but physical death, no. This is partly because I just don't think physical death is the end, not in my gut.
 
 
Paolo
14:01 / 18.05.06
Death is a funny thing in that whilst being something which everyone faces, until recently it was something I put out of my mind, working on the unconscious assumption that I am immortal. Nobody is immortal of course and really I can put down my previous attitude to a lack of experience in death which is how I could succeed so strongly in putting it out of my mind

More recently however I have been bereaved for the first time in my adult life and as a consequence my approach to death has shifted quite profoundly. I have found that I am drawing comfort from the idea that everyone dies and am even rather morbidly looking forward to death although I do love life and certainly don’t want to die for a very very long time in the future.

In a sense I think fear of death seems to me to be a fear of loss; first of oneself as one approaches a feared annihilation and secondly a fear as to what to expect - images of Hell and eternal damnation haven’t really helped people attain a healthy attitude towards dying. I also think we have a fear towards loss of a loved person and an unalterable absence/change occurring in ones life.

I probably should qualify my perspective by stating that I do believe in a life after death of some form or another; although I cannot be sure of the details. My experiences as a magician and a paranormal investigator have convinced me that reality is more complex that that described by materialistic scientific paradigm. It has also shown me that either I am sadly deluded or that spirits do seems to have (at least a partially) objective existence. So as a believer (even if wrong) I can work on expectation of something which probably lessons the fear somewhat.

I am reminded of something the late Andrew D. Chumbley wrote in Azoetia - "The sorceror draws power from his own death". I think he is saying that in acknowledging it will happen one achieves a liberation from the fear of death and thus a greater freedom and power to live in the present.
 
 
Princess
15:07 / 18.05.06
I find the idea of death quite comforting. I mean, not other people's deaths, and not quite my own, in reality. I know if I died that other people would be pissed off and sad, and I try to avoid any morbidity around them because I love them and do actually love life very much. But there is something attractive to death. Not death as a journey, which is hard and painful and disgusting oftentimes, but death as the final destination. Our language and our society shows a secret urge for this death, this final resolution. We seek out Le Petit Mort and Satori.
While I'm living I have a duty to myself and to my environment. I have to live as big as I can, and thats hard, their is always some little part of myself to fight. In death, in final resolution, in the big non-resistance of 0, there is peace. Without Identity there is no identity crisis, without a self there can be no interaction or duty.
Maybe this is just a reflection of my own desire to be lazy (and I'm pretty sure the mortophillia is a byproduct of my laziness) but Rest In Peace does sound lovely doesn't it?

That said, its sunny outside and I'm going to play frisbee.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:15 / 18.05.06
This is partly because I just don't think physical death is the end, not in my gut.

Interesting perspective...I know, as much as I can be sure I know anything, that it isn't 'the end', so to speak, (though, of course, to the collection of experiences and memories of them currently referred to as (and possibly even believed to be) 'you', it is) but I personally draw little comfort from this at all. In fact, it's what I find the most difficult and chilling about the whole glorious process...It's what requires the most work to integrate back into the (non-existant!) Self. It's the real Biggie.

I'd wager a lot on the opinion that many people, materialists particularly, actually draw enormous comfort from the notion that death is the end...even if they consciously profess to being 'afraid' of it, actually, the notion of a final, total oblivion, a sleep from which one never wakes, is seductive and highly appealing and unconsciously provides an enormous, fluffy blanket. Nothingness. The End. The Void. Struggle and pain and the vagaries and uncertainties of life at least have a solid punctuation mark, a definite closure. Finito. There will be a conclusion, a final curtain. All you have to do is bide your time.

How lovely that would be. Everyone applauds.

Such a belief - completely alien to me - ultimately lends this life enormous freedom to do and be anything you want. Anything Thou Willt. What difference does it make, after all? At the end of the lifelong 'day', sleep waits, there will be rest. However hard or unpleasant life may become, one day, inevitably, there will be an end to it, and that will be that. Party like there's no tomorrow, because one day, you'll be right. Right?

If, on the other hand, death is little more than a necessary consequence of incarnation, and incarnation is a necessary consequence of previous action, then action - here, in the now - ceases to be quite so free after all. Or rather, the freedom is still there, but close examination of the predicament suggests that actually, extremely careful and constant mindfulness is paramount. Absolutely essential. That your actions, as the beardy bloke with easy fists might have it, will echo in eternity.

This, of course, is in direct contrast to the assertion (of materialists) that people like me lack the courage to face reality. That I somehow draw 'comfort' from the notion of Conservation of the Absolute. Like, constant and concentrated mindfulness based on awareness of samsara is a cop out, a method of assuaging the enormity of the implications of ceasing to be manifest here.

Amazing conclusion.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
08:34 / 19.05.06
Cross-posted with swashbuckling there, who provides a rather apposite QED to the point.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
08:44 / 19.05.06
Suggested texts:

The Book of Natural Liberation through Understanding in the Between

Groundhog Day

In that order.
 
 
Princess
11:41 / 19.05.06
Who's the author of those? My library is a bit stupid when it comes to titles.
 
  

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