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51st State - the reality

 
  

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We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:40 / 18.02.02
It occurred to me this afternoon that there are fifty million people in the United Kingdom; one fifth of the US population. I suddenly found myself wondering how the world would change if the United Kingdom became the 51st State.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
10:56 / 18.02.02
50 million - where the fuck did the other 30 million go?
 
 
Ganesh
10:58 / 18.02.02
Everyone's gone to the moon?
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
11:01 / 18.02.02
Please tell me it ws Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool and Newcastle?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:02 / 18.02.02
What other 30 million? It's relatively stable at around 60 million at the moment, IIRC.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
11:11 / 18.02.02
OK I though Britain was nearing the 80 million mark.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
11:18 / 18.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:
Everyone's gone to the moon?
Or been banged up for noncery?

Nick; assuming it became the 51st state, then wouldn't all the Commonwealth's countries become part of the US too? That's a pretty big migration of power/responsibility...
 
 
Sax
11:21 / 18.02.02
Why, we could be part of...of an empire again! The sun could once more rise on this glorious nation! Honest men would be able to stand in the street once more and ejaculate: "Od's bodkin, I love this country!"
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
11:26 / 18.02.02
Back to the subject at hand. I thnk that you'd find that if England became the 51st state of America there would be significant economic shifts which may well lead to global downturn because the two powers would be unable to trade against each other. Not to mention the other myriad of economical effects caused by such things as the replacement of the British Pound with the Dollar.

Then of course you have to take into account the sociological effects. Is it possible to merge a monarchistic nation with an anti-monarchistic nation. If Britain were to become an American state I suspect that the monarchy would not be welcome because as heads of the nation it would mean that essentially they would rule America. Then you need to take into consideration the commonwealth countries. For instance Canada and Australia both carry the Queens head on part of their currency and hold then as monarchy.

Would the right to bear arms be introduced to Britain? In the shadow of Dunblane I think that this would be an unwelcome idea.

Would police become armed?

How would the American government handle Northern Ireland?

How would Northern Ireland handle the American government?

I think that despite the "actual status" jokes, the merging of these two nations would be far more an inmpossible task then anyone would be willing to attempt.
 
 
Sax
11:29 / 18.02.02
Aren't we getting into bed with Europe far too much to preclude actually being absorbed by the United States?

To add to wisdom's list, there are also the questions of the National Health Service, and other semi-nationalised industries (as few and far between as they may be).

Surely filed under things that would never happen?
 
 
Sax
11:30 / 18.02.02
By the way,

quote:Originally posted by Wisdom of idiots:
Please tell me it ws Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool and Newcastle?


What does this mean, exactly?
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
11:33 / 18.02.02
Yeah I think there is too much disparity between cultures, mentalities and social mechanisms for this to be a possibility.

Do you really think that the British would want to lose their national identitiy?

Sax, that meant that I think that the populations those cities are most deserving of the great honour of moving to the moon as per Ganesh's observations.

[ 18-02-2002: Message edited by: Wisdom of idiots ]
 
 
sleazenation
12:06 / 18.02.02
Actually I'd love to see how The US would handle Northern Ireland especially since so much IRA funding was of (non governmental) US origin
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
12:09 / 18.02.02
The UK should start freezing the accounts of contributers.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
12:12 / 18.02.02
...because it has both the means and the political will to do that to wealthy Americans.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:12 / 18.02.02
Actually, I was thinking more of the effect on the US. Let's assume for a second that the UK has a population around fifty five million, and that our voting turnout is about fifty percent of the electorate; lower than it has been, although higher than the last election in many areas, and also higher than the US.

What would be the political effects on America? Social?

I don't think, incidentally, that this is a serious possibility in the foreseeable future. Certainly, I don't imagine the US would be accepting the royals as their very own...it might be better to call the UK an oligarchy rather than a monarchist state, b the way...
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
12:13 / 18.02.02
No, more because I'm always game for a poke in the eye for wealthy Americans with less gumption than and a chicken pot noodle.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
12:47 / 18.02.02
I actually think that assimilation would not be all that difficult into being an American colony. The vast majority of our media input is either American or heavily American influenced (far more than it is European and far more influenced than other European countries are by American culture), our modern culture is very Americanised.

Our position economiclly in the world also owes a lot to America, though like the American effect on our culture it's something we tend to be loathe to admit.

As for the right to bare arms, I don't think the Americans would want those "damned colonials" to get to uppity. However I would imagine they would handle the Northern Ireland situation by giving it back to the rest of Ireland.
 
 
Rage
12:58 / 18.02.02
Isn't this the way that things are already heading?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:12 / 18.02.02
No.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
13:14 / 18.02.02
quote:Originally posted by The resistable rise of Reidcourchie:
our modern culture is very Americanised.


I would have to disagree on this part. I'm not sure how far your experience extends, but as someone who has moved from England to Canada (a very Americanised country, so much so that there have been considerations of adopting the US Dollar) The Americanisation of British culture is far less than people actually make out. There is a very rigid British core mentality that has failed to be pervaded by any American elements.
 
 
sleazenation
13:24 / 18.02.02
quote:Originally posted by The resistable rise of Reidcourchie:
However I would imagine they would handle the Northern Ireland situation by giving it back to the rest of Ireland.


Yes, because the whole irish question really is that simple.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
13:29 / 18.02.02
Of course it's not but if popular opinion in America is that's what should happen, then it would be expeditious of the American administration to drop it in someone elses lap, ie Southern Ireland.

I'm not saying these are my views just answering the question what do I think would happen.

Originally posted by Wisdon of Idiots

"The Americanisation of British culture is far less than people actually make out. There is a very rigid British core mentality that has failed to be pervaded by any American elements."

I realise when we're dealing with ideas as ephemeral as this substantion is difficult but could you perhaps expand on this a bit.
 
 
MJ-12
13:39 / 18.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Wisdom of idiots:
Yeah I think there is too much disparity between cultures, mentalities and social mechanisms for this to be a possibility.


I don't know that that is neccessarily the case. Many people had posited that East and West Germany wouldn't be able to reunify for twenty years down line, for many of the same reasons.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
13:39 / 18.02.02
Work ethic concepts are different. National approaches to identity are different. National approaches to health care and business methodology are different.

Even at the most basic level there are differences. Tax is rarely included in the price of anything in North America. The national sport is not soccer and depends on what the star team in the locality is.
e.g. Baltimore's national sport is baseball, St. Louis' national sport is football.

Many everyday things at some subtle lever are different.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
13:51 / 18.02.02
To me those would largely appear to be cosmetic. If we look at the case of the so called national sport, games like basketball and American football are still very popular over here often with same people that like soccer.

That there are differances I'm not denying but compare our culture 50 years ago with our culture today, a fifty years that has seen a lot of American influence in Britain and look how much more Britain has been Americanised. The same cannot be said the other way around.

How many of our sub-cultures we have today in Britain can be said to have started here and not in America? I can think of Goth (though arguably a spin off of punk which is American) and Raggae (though that's not British either).
 
 
Baz Auckland
13:56 / 18.02.02
quote:Originally posted by MJ-12:


I don't know that that is neccessarily the case. Many people had posited that East and West Germany wouldn't be able to reunify for twenty years down line, for many of the same reasons.


Yeah, but if Peurto Rico doesn't even want to join the US, what are the chances the UK will?
 
 
Ganesh
16:48 / 18.02.02
quote:Originally posted by The resistable rise of Reidcourchie:
How many of our sub-cultures we have today in Britain can be said to have started here and not in America? I can think of Goth (though arguably a spin off of punk which is American) and Raggae (though that's not British either).


Skinhead (gay and straight)?
 
 
SMS
05:43 / 19.02.02
I think we're missing the interesting bit of the question, which, I think, is What kind of effects would British culture and thought have on the American people? How would the U.S. government be changed? How would the U.S. thinking change?

I don't have enough information to really answer any of these questions.

As far as Britain being "Americanized," I'm not entirely convinced that this is a clear enough concept to be especially meaningful. For one thing, America has a number of different cultures, none of which have clearly defined limits. The stereotypes of the average person from Texas, from Southern California, from Chicago, and from Dixie all seem to me like they could be residents of separate countries.

What's more, the cultural influences from Western Europe to the United States have never been small. Our government was designed from a British model; "the royal family" means the british royal family to most Americans; everybody here knows who Tony Blair is, and most people don't even know the title of the Italian head of state. I would bet that if you traced any of these subcultures said to originate in the U.S. a little further, you'd find they might have come from somewhere else in the world---a number of them from Britain.
 
 
MJ-12
05:43 / 19.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Barry Auckland:
Yeah, but if Peurto Rico doesn't even want to join the US, what are the chances the UK will?


Oh, you nattering nabob of negativism. That's just because they don't want to pay taxes. The British would be much better off. Join us! Join in the greater Anglophonic Co-Prosperity Sphere!
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
05:43 / 19.02.02
If NMD goes ahead as planned we might as well become the 51st State - all the aggro, none of the 'protection'...
 
 
BioDynamo
13:21 / 19.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Sax:
Why, we could be part of...of an empire again!


...but ...you are!

See here.
 
 
moriarty
13:49 / 19.02.02
quote:Originally posted by The resistable rise of Reidcourchie:
I realise when we're dealing with ideas as ephemeral as this substantion is difficult but could you perhaps expand on this a bit.


You really can't even imagine. I spent almost a year in Scotland, and the gap in cultures is enormous. Almost every celebrity that is named on this board by the British posters goes straight over my head. Kylie who? Take That what? Bill Hicks? What's he done?

Canada is very comparable to the United States, so much so that they already call us USA Jr. and the 51st state. If any country were to be absorbed by the States, it would be us. I can't even imagine it, the two countries are so different. Driving down to NYC last month really drove the point home. It's never going to happen, so I imagine the taking of the UK to be a near-impossiblity.
 
 
grant
18:34 / 19.02.02
Kilometers back to miles again... it'd be like the Golden Age come again for you!
 
 
moriarty
09:01 / 20.02.02
This whole "miles" thing is beyond my grasp. In NYC I made a comment that I went 120 the whole way to the meet, and everybody in the room just froze. Then I had to explain that I was travelling in kilometres, and it was all cool again.
 
  

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