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The ethics (or, if you'd rather, morality) of war....

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:54 / 03.03.03
It strikes me that, as is right and good , the Switchboard has covered most of the threads on the march to war (tm), but I think there may be a place for a thread on the ethical and/or moral position of the whole exercise here.

As such, Let me kick off with a few thoughts. The last war identifiable pretty much unanimously as a just, or at least justifiable, war was the Second World War. However, the sheer nastiness of the plansa nd the processes of the "bad" guys makes this comparatively easy to identify. that is to say, Hitler was not just a bad guy in the sense of a leader of an opposing nation, but an *unbelievably* bad guy, with a mechanism in place for violating international law but also embarking on genocide against non-combatants, and there were thus compelling reasons (some of which did not become entirely clear at the time, but have been used subsequently) for continued opposition.

Now, few will claim that Saddam Hussein is not a dictator, or that he has not committed acts of horrible violence against both his own people and citizens of other sovereign states, or that he should for the good of all be replaced by a regime that cares about its people, and loves kittens and puppies.

However, unlike Hitler, Iraq has no means to threaten the borders of other surrounding nations - bad wars and sanctions have etiolated its military strength - and its neighbours, except slightly ludicrously for Turkey, are not asking for help against Iraqi territorial aggression. So, the argument is instead that, by providing enemies of the US with weapons of mass destruction, Iraq is posing a transglobal threat - that is, threatening the borders of a country without a common border. This is difficult to prove, of course, and comes up against one of the big problems of this particular war - that there is always a better example of a malefactor. Thus, unstable parts of the former Soviet Union have nuclear material and in some cases nuclear weapons that they are either unwilling or unable to keep out of the hands of potential terrorists. North Korea has openly said that it is escalating its nuclear programme. Israel has been in violation of UN resolution 242 for far longer than Iraq has been in violation of 1441. Robert Mugabe is denying democratic rule in Zimbabwe and threatening the lives of his people, and so on.

So why Iraq? Is there an ethical argument for when war is a just action generally, and can it be applied here specifically?

Some thought starters. See what you think about these theses. War is an acceptable response if:

1) A clear and present threat can be established to a member of the international community. What this means is an intewresting question. A massing of troops on a border? An actual aggressive act? Or providing other hostile groups with men and materiel? One of the major ethical problems withthe currently proposed war appears to be the absence of a clearly-stated casus belli.

2) A threat to the people of a country by its own leaders or military is defined as so great that the international community is compelled to act to protect the continued viability of the state. I'm thinking here of a place like Sierra Leone, where UN intervention to stabilise the country possibly averted enormous bloodshed, and also situations like Rwanda or possibly Zimbabwe where either government policy or the loss of control by government threatens massive casualties that cannot be prevented except by military means.

3) A set of clear aims can be established as both credible and justified. This is another problem with the current situation. Desert Storm had a specific and credible aim (the removal of Iraqi military influence and the credible threat of Iraqi reoccupation from Kuwait). It did not extend to the removal from power of Saddam Hussein through a military action moving deep inside Baghdad, partly because it was not within its remit, and partly because the forces assembled were not judged to be strong enough to do so, and the success of the first stage and commensurate weakness and weakening of the Iraqi forces rather caught everyone out.

4) Civilian casualties are recognised as unacceptable. In a perfect world, this would mean that the life of somebody who is paid to risk his or her life in battle is held to be more expendable than a civilian of the enemy side's people (this is a complex question, and deserves revisiting). Failing that, it means a set of rules of engagement oriented towards establishing theatres of conflict as far from civilian populations as possible, the discriminate use of area weapons, and so on.

This engagement's aims seem to be Protean at best. Logically, it is to enforce UN resolution 1441. However, since the US seems to bang on about SH's gassing of his own people endlessly, presumably another objective is the protection of the Iraqi people, with a concern for their welfare made perhaps more touching by the last decade's sanctions regime. Christ loves more the one sheep that loses its path and is found again...Also, of course, another objective seems increasingly to be regime change, although there is no clear description of what would follow this regime change, or who would run it, or any number of other traditionally important questions.

What do you think? Is there an ethical case for war ever, and if so what conditions need to be fulfilled before war can be embarked upon in the conviction that war is just, generally and in this specific circumstance?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:18 / 03.03.03
On point one; In the post-big fucking weapons age, most countries will not present a 'clear and present danger' but will use 'salami tactics', a phrase I've just unashamedly stolen from Yes, Prime Minister.

Otherwise will think on the rest and reply later.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
20:18 / 03.03.03
Haus, this is a stinking rotten question which has led me to ask a further question (which alas I have so far been unable to answer):

What is war? Can we define it as a set of actions, or as a state of (political, I suppose) existence? What are its conditions?

Because it seems to me that upon the answer to this depends the answer to the question of moral or ethical justification as opposed to a pragmatic justification. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that there are certain conditions under which those justifications might be seen to be conflated: it is morally justifiable for me to defend my life/liberty/law and therefore my pragmatic decision to fight is just as much a moral decision. Think this is a bit nasty, brutish and short though. I also think there are questions of representation - is it ever ethical to engage in a war to which the polity has not consented? Because that blows this war right out of the water.

Sorry, that was a bit of a half-warmed fish, but brane is currently three centuries ago...
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
22:22 / 03.03.03
Ouch.

Like Kat, this raises more questions before I think I can begin to come to any answers.

If we're talking about a ethically and/or morally justifiable war, to whose ethics/morals are we working? Is there an assumption of a universal ethical value system? I think this needs unpacking if we're to talk in these terms. I guess this also follows on from Kat's point about representation. Which/how many nations have to be affected?

Sorry, will come back when less woolly.
 
 
Lurid Archive
23:37 / 03.03.03
Just a minor thought for now, mostly Chomskyian in flavour, more later. I'll just respond to this,

If we're talking about a ethically and/or morally justifiable war, to whose ethics/morals are we working? Is there an assumption of a universal ethical value system? - BiP

I think you can identify a set of common needs and desires without having to resort to a monolithic universal ethical system. Though, having said that, there may be reasons to believe in the rudiments of such a system.

So, most people don't want to get hurt, starve or suffer in a variety of ways. The boundaries here are perhaps fluid, but there is a lot of basic common stuff too. I'm going to contend now that any ethical system is going to have to incorporate a reluctance to cause harm and suffering.

The boundaries may be tricky, but when it comes to war we are considering some fairly obvious suffering and harm. So a reluctance to cause suffering would require some serious arguments to justify war.
Arguments that a war is unavoidable or on some larger scale causes less suffering than it prevents would be ethically essential.

I'm trying to see if this is flawed. Seems ok for now.

But it is pretty weak as it stands and it is easy to claim that any war is for the greater good. So another thing to try is some principle of symmetry. If its wrong for you, its also wrong for me. Again, this is pretty basic if you want to have any ethics at all. Its trickier to see how it works as every situation is different, but still provides some insights.

That, by itself, impacts on current events. So many of the arguments are spurious and little attempt is made to justify the war in terms of reduction of harm. The security of certain nations, perhaps. The unavoidability is questionable at best. Arguments that there will be a reduction in harm have only been made if we ignore Iraqi sufferng. There's lots more to be said, of course, but it is a start.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
03:03 / 05.03.03
Gingerbop: Might I suggest the Switchboard, whihc has many, many threads on the suitability or otherwise to govern of both Bush and Blair? They might be very good places to forget the ethics...

What is war? Can we define it as a set of actions, or as a state of (political, I suppose) existence? What are its conditions?

This strikes me as one of the key points, as the hawks appear to be seeking to redefine the concept of what awar is and what it is, consequently, to wage war. We find ourselves in the interesting situation of a state being on the brink of invading another state, whuile maintaining with apparent sincerity that the invaded country is the aggressor. Likewise, one of the questions raised in the wake of the apparent increase in air attacks on Iraqi positions in the no-fly zone was whether this constituted in a material change in the rules of engagement, and thus was a de facto act of war.

So, a couple of possible demarcations:

1) for my money, war has to happen between two states, where that war is not a civil war, which is called "civil war" precisely to mark out its abnormality. As such, the war against terror can only metaphorically be represented as a war. There is also a case for saying that military action in which one of the sides is a supranational organisation, that is one at least ostensibly not created to serve any specific national interests, cannot be war, according to these lights, which makes things trickier.

2) War can be said to be happening when those two states have resolved to achieve certain aims through the use of military forces, usually opposing one military force against another.

3) War is conducted according to specific rules of engagement, with the aim of retaining or achieving tactical advantage to the point that the objectives of one side can be achieved.

4) War is conducted primarily by the oppisition of military force against military force, and secondarily by the targetting of the opposing force's ability to make war. Thus, pitched battle is war, as is an attack on a munitions factory, whereas bombing hospitals is either an accident or an atrocity occuring alongside the war (this is tricky...)

So, part of my ambivalence is that I'm not even sure that this *is* a war; for example in a recent White House briefing Ari Fleischer said that it was not the policy of the White House to assassinate the heads of state of other nations, before warning darkly that in the event of war the command and control of the Iraqi war machine would not be safe. So, if war exists, it is OK to shoot Saddam Hussein, if war does not exist it is apparently not. It's Schrodinger's gat.

It's issues like that that make the ambiguity over what constitutes war, in this case and more generally in TWAT, that potentially erod erules of engagememt, just as TWAT seems to be eroding the civilian/soldier distinction.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
21:15 / 06.03.03
That is an admirable statement of something I was groping blindly to try to express - thank you. I'm not sure whether it's a war either, and this

We find ourselves in the interesting situation of a state being on the brink of invading another state, whuile maintaining with apparent sincerity that the invaded country is the aggressor.

encapsulates much of the bizarre double-think which seems to surround this war, which also serves to obscure exactly what is going on - whatever that may be.

It did occur to me to wonder whether a war is something that is waged by the militaries of states on behalf of said states, or whether their function is more representative - that the military of a state, when at war, effectively is the state, which is the nation. I think the latter is probably what happened during the two world wars, though it certainly hasn't always been the case (and might have developed during the eighteenth century actually, thinking about it, along with the growth of nationalism as an ideology). But I'm not sure whether the same can be said of this war. Clearly that's what the US and UK administrations are trying to do - to mobilise the nation, to make 'the US' and 'the UK' at war with 'Iraq'. But I don't think it's working any more - the ground seems to have shifted. It might be interesting to think about why that might have happened, I suppose...
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
22:35 / 06.03.03
Not sure if this is relevant or not, but Haus' mention of TWAT got me to thinking that part of the background to the doublethink and confusion about this 'war' is about terminology. (quick, before someone shouts 'semantics' and we all have to run to base. sorry.)

It made me wonder how long the phrase 'the war against' has been in common political usage, as I have the impression that this has become much more prevalent in the last ten years or so. I have no idea whether the creeping militarisation of political rhetoric is a *recently* resurgent phenomenon or not, but it feels like it to me (someone help me out here? Kat? Haus?).

For example in the UK and US we've had 'The War Against Drugs'. Which is no more a War than this is (or vice versa) But allowed (talking about the UK here, about which I'm slightly better informed) a government to pursue a hardline divisive 'them and us' policy and to justify/popularise this approach. We even had a Drugs *Tsar* for fucks' sake.

See also the War Against Terrorism, which is one of the (lamer?) excuses for *this* attack.

The use of the word 'War' has become pat political rhetoric to dramatise certain decisions as 'warlike, dangerous but heroic'.

So we now have all sorts of wars which aren't wars, to the point where military engagement which isn't a war perhaps passes under the radar more easily.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
22:49 / 06.03.03
Actually it's interesting in itself that we now go to war 'against' things/states rather than 'with' them. The idea of 'engagement' seems to have been somewhat sidelined in favour of this... One wages war on something though. I think there's enough difference between the two to warrant a close examination of the language used. 'Against' seems to indicate a defensive mode which implies that (as Haus said above) we're the ones already under attack.

Using 'we' in a very abstract sense there, btw.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:51 / 06.03.03
Ah, but it *isn't* the war against terrorism. That would mean it would need to specify which terrorists, i.e. armed groups acting without a clear command structure leading ultimately to a sovereign state, it was making war on and how. This is a war against *terror*, which like a war against ennui or a war against midlife crisis, can justify pretty much any action because the initial concept is itself incoherent.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
00:18 / 07.03.03
Spot on. and brings us back to how 'we' can be invading another nation while claiming them as the agressor.

And that's another interesting development. How long has 'the war against terror' been the stock description of the policy? post-afghanistan we find a really unpleasant elision of the war(s) against terrorism and terror. Which, as Haus points, out, widens the net, and the hypocrisy, considerably.

So for current purposes, Sadaam Hussein/Iraq (not my equating, i'd like to emphasise) are 'terror'. And their existence stands as a declaration of war against 'freedom' and other such abstractions. So all UK/US are doing is retaliating. North Korea, on the other hand, are presumably not terror. Yet.

Jesus. *now* i'm scratchy and depressed.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:13 / 07.03.03
Monty's practical tips for starting a war:

Eventually, the conversation turned to the idea of war. Montgomery outlined, very explicitly, his four essential prerequisites for going to war. In light of their bearing on the situation today, I would like to focus attention on them. He said that there must exist:

a) A clear objective that is desirable to realise nationally.

b) The means and the will to realise this objective militarily.

c) The ability to ground the recourse to force legally.

d) The ability to defend that course of action at home and abroad, morally.

I was struck to have heard these four points from a professional soldier, and replied that 50 per cent of the factors he mentioned could be said to concern strategy and 50 per cent ethics.

That, Monty answered, was because, "Victory in war requires, even more than arms, that the people who are making war believe in what they are doing to the degree that they will be prepared to sacrifice themselves and that others accept its legal and moral legitimacy to the extent that will guarantee their support."


Guardian

Basically what we've been saying, largely, but it's more concise
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:31 / 08.03.03
I think we are in danger of being a little complacent here, aren't we? Given that no one supports the war, it becomes too easy to criticise it.

For a start, I think the whole aspect of defining war and whether that is an appropriate description is a red herring. It is important in the public arena, from the hawk's point of view, to talk about the war on terror and defending against an aggressor, but I don't see how it is crucial to a moral analysis.

We are comfortable with what "war" means in some situations, less sure in others. Definitions are like that, but unless your moral position relies on the applicability of the actual word, rather than a detailed description of motive, cause and effect, I can't see that it makes too much odds.

Also, there should be a distinction between the rhetoric of war and the serious thinking behind it. Much of the rhetoric "war on terror", "axis of evil" etc is simplistic in the extreme and is easy to take apart. But its purpose is not a carefully argued position. Rather it is a rallying cry constructed for soundbite value - it is propoganda. The motives behind the war are harder to fathom, perhaps, but I for one believe that there are lots of smart people in government. Their moral position is questionable, but their analysis is not as easy to take apart as this.

A "war on terror" can make sense if what one means is a set of objectives - minimising the influence of some identified groups to wage covert war and threaten actual war. Its like "fighting crime".
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
15:48 / 10.03.03
And thanks to LA for leading into my tuppence.

"During periods of conflict, the normal codes of society are suspended" James Nachtwey - War Photographer.

I think that complacency is far too easy for those whose lives are primarily affected by war at a level that means more tax, less time for sitcoms on TV and a little extra emotional effort.

However I think that it bears to consider that the entire Middle-East region has been living in a state of conflict of a protracted period of time and while we remain comfortable in our nicely protected lands many different nations are forced to be right next to each other with a mean mentalith that is quite considerably skewed from our own. To criticise war unreservedly fairly much sells out a lot of people because they don't live our lives.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:43 / 10.03.03
So, could we find the support for war in the neighbouring countries? That would be a start. The next one would be an acknowledgement that the resolution currently being sought would be something in the manner of the 19th against Iraq. Te-tum. Or indeed that Ari Fleischer believes that regime change is a logical attachment to the UN-sanctioned actions to enforce the destruction of WMDs.

Anyone care to weave these and others into a coherent proposition?
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:12 / 11.03.03
So, could we find the support for war in the neighbouring countries?

Not sure. I don't think there is any, but that doesn't mean that there is outright opposition either. What may be interesting is that does seem to be some support for the war from Iraqis opposed to the current regime, including the leadership of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) and the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP). From here

TThe meeting evaluated the political and international situation and the possibilities of a military conflict, which the allied forces plan to launch under the leadership of the US.

The meeting puts the responsibility on the Iraqi regime for endangering the security of the country as a result of its repressive policies, violation of human rights and rights of various groups, non-compliance with relevant UN Security Council resolutions, aggression against neighboring countries and its refusal to get rid of its Weapons of Mass Destruction


I think this sort of argument needs to be dealt with independently of the hypocrisy and inconsistency of certain hawks. Will this military action improve things for the Iraqi people? Is the "war" unavoidable, or at least the most ethical option in terms of reducing the suffering of the Iraqis?
 
  
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