BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Alan Watts on games and the Struggle.

 
 
grant
18:50 / 22.01.02
I'm not sure if this dude would be better suited to the Magick or Books, but he's overall fairly heady, so here I put him.

I've lately been entranced by The Book: On The Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are. It was written in 1966, but feels very contemporary. A sort of adaptation of Hindu Vedanta to modern America.

He has a lot to say about the falsity of binary divisions, which is partially at the root of a lot of the trans-talk on the Head Shop right now. Watts sort of became a subcultural (read: hippie) icon, but he never really intended to. Bruce Lee used his stuff in teaching Jeet Kune Do.

Here are a couple quotes from The Book:

quote:No one can be moral – that is, no one can harmonize contained conflicts – without coming to a working arrangement between the angel in himself and the devil in himself, between his rose above and his manure below. The two forces or tendencies are mutually interdependent, and the game is a working game just so long as the angel is winning, but does not win, and the devil is losing, but is never lost. (The game doesn’t work in reverse, just as the ocean doesn’t work with wave-crests down and troughs up.)

It is most important that this be understood by those concerned with civil rights, international peace, and the restraint of nuclear weapons. These are most undoubtedly causes to be backed with full vigor, but never in a spirit which fails to honor the opposition, or which regards it as entirely evil or insane. It is not without reason that the formal rules of boxing, judo, fencing and even dueling require that the combatants salute each other before the engagement. In any foreseeable future there are going to be thousands and thousands of people who detest and abominate Negroes, communists, Russians, Chinese, Jews, Catholics, beatniks, homosexuals, and “dope fiends.” These hatreds are not going to be healed, but only inflamed, by insulting those who feel them, and the abusive labels with which we plaster them – squares, fascists, rightists, know-nothings – may well become the proud badges and symbols around which they will rally and consolidate themselves.

…If we want justice for minorities and cooled wars with our natural enemies, whether human or nonhuman, we must first come to terms with the minority and the enemy in ourselves and in our own hearts, for the rascal is there as much as anywhere in the “external” world – especially when you realize the world outside your skin is as much yourself as the world inside.


There are audio files of a few lectures here, and you get access to even more if you register in the slot. He's got a nice voice - I never knew he was English until I heard these.

So: too peaceful to effect change?
Or enlightened agent of revolution?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:04 / 22.01.02
Though Grant has already linked to the archive, I should note that the Alan Watts lecture series is broadcast online every week at 7PM EST on Thursdays on WFMU.

It's a very interesting show...I'll come back and add something more substantial to this thread later on...
 
 
Persephone
19:08 / 22.01.02
I like Alan Watts a lot, I'm glad you posted about him. Oddly enough, it is the Wattsian part of me that keeps me from posting many times--most especially in the Head Shop.

But, an example from the Conversation, I could not answer the "What's so great about you" and the "What's not so great about you" threads, because --at least as far as personal qualities go-- every thing I thought of that was "great" about me, I also thought that I was the opposite of that and that was also "great." E.g., I am very peaceable, great, except when I'm not, also great albeit fearsome. And those same qualities were what were *not* great about me.

For starters.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
22:28 / 22.01.02
I dig The Book too. I especially liked the myth for children he has near the beginning describing God's hide and seek game.
 
 
grant
01:46 / 23.01.02
Here's another (more Head-Shoppy, maybe) excerpted passage... it's also in a slightly different form in the audio archive:

quote:I have sometimes thought that all philosophical disputes could be reduced to an argument between the partisans of "prickles" and the partisans of "goo." The prickly people are tough-minded, rigorous, and precise, and like to stress differences and divisions between things. They prefer particles to waves, and discontinuity to continuity. The gooey people are tender-minded romanticists who love wide generalizations and grand syntheses. They stress the underlying unities, and are inclined to pantheism and mysticism. Waves suit them much better than particles as the ultimate constituents of matter, and discontinuities jar their teeth like a compressed air drill. Prickly philosophers consider the gooey ones rather disgusting - undisciplined, vague dreamers who slide over hard facts like an intellectual slime which threatens to engulf the whole universe in an "undifferentiated aesthetic continuum" (courtesy of Professor F.S.C. Northrup). But gooey philosophers think of their prickly colleagues as animated skeletons that rattle and click without any vital juices, as dry and dessicated mechanisms bereft of all finer feelings. Either party would be hopelessly lost without the other, because there would be nothing to argue about....

As things now stand in the world of academic philosophy, the prickly people have had the upper hand in both England and the United States for some years. With their penchant for linguistic analysis, mathematical logic, and scientific empiricism, they have aligned philsophy with the mystique of science... and, as William Earle said, would come to work in white coats if they thought they could get away with it.... their sweeping victory over the gooey people has almost abolished philosophy as a discipline....

Historically, this is probably the extreme point of that swing of the intellectual pendulum which brought into fashion the Fully Automatic Universe, of the age of analysis and specialization when we lost our vision of the universe in the overwhelming complexity of its details.*

*Academic philosophy missed its golden opportunity in 1921, when Ludwig Wittgenstein first published his Tractatus... which ended with the following passage: "The right method of philosophy would be this. To say nothing except what can be said, i.e. the propositions of natural science, i.e. something that has nothing to do with philosophy; and then always, when someone else wished to say something metaphysical, to demonstrate to him that he had given no meaning to certain signs and propositions. This method would be unsatisfying to the other - he would not have the feeling that we were teaching him philosophy - but it wuld be the only strictly correct method. My propositions are elucidatory in this way: he who understands me finall recognizes them as senseless, wehn he has climbed out through them, on them, over them. (He must so to speak throw away the ladder, after he has climbed up on it.) He must surmount these propositions; then he sees the world rightly. Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." This was the critical moment for all academic philosophers to maintain total silence and to advance the discipline to the level of pure contemplation along the lines of the meditation practices of Zen Buddhists. But even Wittgenstein had to go on talking and writing, for how else can a philosopher show that he is working and not just goofing off?


I like this because it's a paradoxical critique, a gooey thinker inventing prickly categories to critique prickly thinkers by pointing out their gooey-ness. Sort of. In a way, Watts sets himself up as both and neither at the same time, which is very nice.

It also (in the footnote, at least) points toward silence in a way that I think deconstruction points towards meaninglessness, or more precisely, the ineffability of meaning. Deconstruction seems sort of gooey, then. So does contemporary gender theory. If not gooey, then corrosively anti-prickle.
 
 
grant
14:43 / 22.08.07
Just found the strangest thing on reddit... it's a collection of Alan Watts lectures animated by Trey Parker and Matt Stone.

Yeah, the South Park guys.

They've gone Zen, or something.

OK, technically, they're animated by another duo, but they're *produced* by the South Park dudes. And they're really kind of fun.
 
 
*
00:06 / 23.08.07
That was brilliant! Thanks for the link, grant. I especially liked "Appling".
 
 
Krug
04:18 / 23.08.07
If you look around, there's torrents (am I allowed to talk about that here?) of just about all his recordings (I think). I've heard dozens of hours of Alan Watts' lectures. That's the best way to experience Watts I think. I've moved away from a lot of that kind of philosophy but one of the most memorable lectures was "The Game Theory of Ethics" (a bit silly but quite enjoyable). His Essential Alan Watts listening (12 CD set) is probably a near comprehensive distillation of his best lectures/ideas. Like an Alan Watts reader, but read by the author. I feel like listening to him again because I used to quote him all the time but do not remember much anymore.
 
 
delacroix
13:19 / 29.08.07
Funny, I would call deconstruction prickly; although once upon a time I thought of Derrida as gooey because I was uncomfortable with the willfulness of his playful prose; then I read more, and saw the documentary, and saw that he actually cared a great deal about the implimentaton of those ideas, the rigorous implimentation of those ideas, i.e., 'Forgiveness' in South Africa: it must be deconstructed so that it does not automatically imply reconcilliation, as it would to most people who've been surrounded with Christianity their whole lives.

Just my two cents. (And, with deconstruction, there is no longer any hope of living in an aesthetic continuum, is there? There would always be more analysis, more thinking... though like Watts' wave mentioned upthread, the angel of the Cool and the New would always be winning and the devil of the Formal would be losing and never lost.)
 
 
Spaniel
22:22 / 01.09.07
I know a bunch a mystics who knew the guy and, yeah, he was drunk and egotistical, but by fuck he was a powerful communicator.
 
 
Pyewacket The Elder
11:54 / 13.09.07
Hmmm Bobossthat comes across a little unfounded given the integrity of his works not to mention the oxymoronic nature of the ego/Zen equation(to be distinguished from behaving egotisticly on purpose for whatever end which ye olde masters would do with wonderful aplomb).

Obviously these guys said that... however lots of people say lots of things about lots of people who just plain 'aren't' because lots of people have seriously strange values and or petty jealousies etc etc. Sometimes they are correct according to some measurable behaviour or evidenced action and sometimes not.

So prevelant is this kind of thing that a friend of mine absolutely HATES Michael keaton. I mean! Keaton! He's no Jesus but really what has he done to be hated??

So I guess in rounda bouts way I'm a little suspicious of mystics (being one myself I know what total Asshats we are) talking about Zen-grokkers (being one myself, humbly humbly own trumpet blowingly). Less personally i note that he was friends with Robert Anton Wilson who I doubt would have been that chummy if Watts was an egotistical wankerzoid.

Unless some one tells me that Watts was head of the ego wanker club (with Yngwie Malmsteen as club secretary) then I'm not buying into it really and that goes for anyone and their reputation (Except Princess Diana - These Umpa Lumpas said she couldn't play the opening riff to "smoke on the water" for toffee).

Zen leaves, in my experience, little real room at heart for mystical nonsense as a face-value reality of existence and in the rush for enlightenment we see many strange and funky conclusions reached which people will fight for til the day they ASCEND TO TEH GREAT MOTHER SHIP FROM BETELGUESE! And this aint enlightenment at all.

I would perhaps recommend Watts Autobiography "In my own way" as one of his best books.

Anyone know of any books critiquing Watts (not so much his philosophies but the man himself?). Anyone read "Switch off your Mind" by Gary Lachmann which, apparently, mentions Watts in quite harsh tones?
 
 
iamus
19:52 / 14.09.07
I've read Switch Off Your Mind, but the last time I did so properly was probably a good five years or so ago. Funnily enough I skimmed the index last year particularly for reference to Watts who's been getting regular rotation on the iPod for a good, good while now. I don't remember that there was a whole lot about him in there (though this is from hazy memory) but what there was didn't seem to be too flattering. If I can dig the book (which is excellent btw) back out and have a shufti, I'll let you know.

I like Watts an awful lot. He has a very straightforward and approachable manner in his speaking with great ability in taking the thornier concepts and breaking them down into perfectly simple metaphors. I love the playful way he talks and thinks, he really makes you want to listen and I'd have dearly loved to have been around to see the man lecture.
 
 
Pyewacket The Elder
21:10 / 15.09.07
What I like about Watts is that my bullshit detector registers not ONE nano-shites worth of turd throughout ANY thing I've read or listened too and, trust me my droogs, my BS detector is a refined instrument of lovely true-y-ness.

What I've seen of Lachmann in interviews, is that the dude bought into the whole occult thing but got stuck at the "I must do Resh even when I'm in the local chippy -and-I-feel-Silly-with-a-capital-'S-saying-this-cod-pseudo-egyptian-nonsense" therefore that is the whole meaning of this whole occulty thang. Alas no.

A bit like Mr "scientific method is the be-all-and-end-all however I know nothing of semantics and the human nervous system" Dawkins. God is baaad M'kay? but "what" god you talk about and WHAT representation be thou talketh about innit?

Drunk = spew = tosh. enjoy
 
 
Pyewacket The Elder
21:17 / 15.09.07
Okay here's the crux of Watts....he says this:

In a game of two sides, if you knew the outcome there'd be no point in playing the game. Life is a deliberate game of hide-and-seek by the totality of all-that-is to the-totality-of-all-that-is. Just for the lark like?

As Uncle Al said:

"Divided for loves sake, for the chance of union."

You think WHAT of this concept? Anyone who involves Marx or any media theorist other than McLuhan will be called a smelly piss-bag.

Discuss:
 
 
Tsuga
14:07 / 16.09.07
What I like about Watts is that my bullshit detector registers not ONE nano-shites worth of turd throughout ANY thing I've read or listened too and, trust me my droogs, my BS detector is a refined instrument of lovely true-y-ness.
I think my bullshit detector is going off.
Seriously, Scrotox, can you talk about the topic with a bit more thoughtfulness? I'm personally totally unfamiliar with Watts, so I'd like to read more about him that's not just spewed tosh.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
16:59 / 16.09.07
I'm no kind of Buddhist, but courtesy of my uncle, the family hippy/backpacker to Nepal, Alan Watts' 'The Book' and 'This is It' were books that I discovered hiding on the shelves in my house at a young-ish age; they were probably the first 'philosophical' or consciousness-oriented books I ever read. I can remember being struck by his simple style - after all, those were probably some of the most populist books he wrote, so it makes sense that someone my age would have found them easy and absorbing - and the pull quotes grant started the thread with contain some of the concepts that have stayed with me ever since. [Just] so long as the angel is winning, but does not win, and the devil is losing, but is never lost is as good a one-liner as I've ever heard to throw down against people who talk about fashionable postmodern relativism and no one believing in right and wrong no more. And the concept of 'prickles and goo' comes to mind whenever Richard Dawkins comes out to take on everybody who isn't Richard Dawkins.

The Gary Lachman book certainly contains a fair amount of scuttlebutt on the subject of Watts' unfaithfulness and sexual compulsions, none of which of necessity invalidates his writings and teachings, but then the book itself is principally a spotter's guide to the many extremely flawed individuals who fed into and came out of the 'Mystic Sixties' (ridiculous phrase, but it's in the book's subtitle). One thing mentioned that interests me more is that Watts' own tutor in Zen, D.T. Suzuki, was no part of the mainstream of orthodox Japanese Buddhist thought, considered a 'dilettante' by his contemporaries. Given that quite a large amount of Zen Buddhism in the West might be said to stem from the books written by Watts and thus originally inspired by Suzuki, this may be worth considering. Does anyone who practices Zen today do so while consciously repudiating the Watts/Suzuki style, whatever it could be considered to be?
 
 
werwolf
16:42 / 17.09.07
watts is quite an interesting figure and his works may very well be a very good entry point or generalisation of a certain school of thought, especially those that are zen or are closely related to zen. my main point of criticism towards alan watts however has always been this: although his views and ideas are clearly based on and are interpolations of zen and other buddhist principles, he still seems to be documenting that there is something to know. something tangible, some core truth. as opposed to the enlightening, all-encompassing truth of various buddhist faction, that tells us that there is nothing to know but that all IS. unfortunately i don't have any quotes handy and it's been a long time since i last picked up anything wattsian. also i am not inclined to research this again, but let's just say that this is the impression that watts left on me.

[quote Grimmjow 'Lefty' Transferjack] One thing mentioned that interests me more is that Watts' own tutor in Zen, D.T. Suzuki, was no part of the mainstream of orthodox Japanese Buddhist thought, considered a 'dilettante' by his contemporaries. Given that quite a large amount of Zen Buddhism in the West might be said to stem from the books written by Watts and thus originally inspired by Suzuki, this may be worth considering. Does anyone who practices Zen today do so while consciously repudiating the Watts/Suzuki style, whatever it could be considered to be? [/quote]

suzuki teitaro daisetsu was indeed not considered to be in line with any official school of zen buddhism. although he lived like one for several years, he never was an ordained zen monk. also he was criticized for attempting to write down and gravely generalize the meaning and way of zen, although he was not recognized as an official academian. all of this made him something like an outcast from traditional schools of zen and their studies. it also has to be mentioned that suzuki was not only interested in zen itself but researched and looked into a wide array of religious and spiritual traditions, even christianity. therefore suzuki is not aligned with any particular way of zen buddhism or any other religious or spiritual practice. the best way to view his work - which was almost always aimed at a wide and general audience and very populist - is probably as observations and musing of an individual who had experienced zen and shinto lifestyles firsthand and attempted to build a bridge to western spiritual and religious ideas. i'd recommend his works to anyone interested in aquiring first knowledge of zen, but not to anyone wanting to actually delve into a life of zen. same goes for watts. alan watts is imho a opener of doors and guide towards new ideas, but he has nothing deeply enlightening nor fascinatingly new to add to those ideas.
 
 
Pyewacket The Elder
21:08 / 19.09.07
I understand what you say (to an extent)however how, precisely, would one know that one is 'getting' zen? What specific yardsticks of experience can one judge this by? More importantly how can one demonstrate and express this meaningfully to another (hint: my drunk witterings above are woeful examples - just ask Barbannoy)If you can demarcate such then can you demonstrate how Alan Watts has missed these specific measurements of Zenness? What is it that Alan Watts expects you to have? And in that 'having' how is it it not Zen?

Can we break any of this down into measurable, and therfore undertsndable, terms? If not then what is left?
 
 
petunia
21:58 / 19.09.07
I have never read a full book of Watts', but have read various portions of books and lectures about on the net. He was definitely a handy 'in' to zen for me - along with Osho, he's very good at opening eastern philosophy to the western mind in a pretty no-nonsense way.

I haven't really read any of his stuff for a while tho. Once i started actual meditation, i got the feeling that he was quite wordy and not necessarily a 'knower'. I realise this is a very dodgy way to term things - the elitism inherent to the idea of 'those who know' is a pretty wanky thing - but his explanations and talks, though handy, are pretty much that; talking. In the writing of people like Osho or Krishnamurti or the other Suzuki there is a certain silence to be found lacking in Watts' work.

In a way, it seems like Watts is talking about the idea of zen. He speaks in quite a philosophical way, countering concepts against one-another. He definitely has a good conceptual understanding of the underpinnings of zen and the eastern philosophical mileu that zen grew out of, and there is definitely a place for that kind of understanding but it doesn't go much beyond the paintwork on the chapel.

Like werewolf said, alan watts is imho a opener of doors and guide towards new ideas, but he has nothing deeply enlightening nor fascinatingly new to add to those ideas.
 
 
Pyewacket The Elder
22:27 / 19.09.07
Good post .tramp. As someone who meditates also I can assume some understanding of what you say (assuming we operate the same basic mechanism of meditation). It appears to me that anyone talking about Zen in accurate terms will appear 'wordy' because it will require deep sophistication and complexity of language to hint at the actual meaning ( again as a negative comparison please refer to my earlier wine induced knobbery above). After all the world is replete enough with 'spiritual' insight that ammounts to people saying 'aaahhh!' in an enigmatic inflection of tonality without stating any specific answer to a a basic question:
Apostle: "So Jesus? what's all this about the lilies?"
Jesus: "AaaahhHHH!!! *gives the knowing look*"
Apostle: "Wow thats so mysterious you must be on to something!"

If there is nothing whatsoever to say about the experience, (the TRUEST deepest most essential experience you have in meditation) then how do you begin to communicate that to those with no reference point relating to the aforementioned non verbally communicative experience?

Well.it has to be..words. Or expressive dance maybe but generally most people like language. So if you feel 'compelled' to communicate this meditation thangy to others you talk about it in the most sophisticated, but most lucid, way you can which is, to me Watts, or Bankei, or sometimes Osho.

The other Suzuki is great (you are so spot on) however the specificity of the language is not as clear to some western minds as Watts IMHO. Watts language, as you have said, is only a door to that which language fails to describe,This is the beautiful conceit of mystic language lampooned earlier in this very post. Somewhere in between the two extremes many, such as myself , have found something worthwhile and life-afirming to live by (notwithstanding my Barbelith pariah status at this time).
 
 
petunia
22:47 / 19.09.07
Um.

I actually meant that Watts' wordiness is somewhat detractive of his position. I suppose it's a strange point to make just before mentioning Osho, but... hmm..

In the C20, you have the example of two approaches - Meher Baba who basically gave up on talking. He'd decided people have had all the pointers possible and that silence was the only real choice. Osho went the other way - giving hundred of lectures, some hours long, hoping that something would sink in and make for some silence.

It's like someone (Shunryu Suzuki i think) said when asked why they gave seemingly contradictory advice to different disciples (and i paraphrase, obviously) 'Some wander to the left of the path; you need to push them to the right. Some wander to the right of the path; you need to push them to the left.'

I don't really agree with you when you say 'It appears to me that anyone talking about Zen in accurate terms will appear 'wordy' because it will require deep sophistication and complexity of language to hint at the actual meaning'. I don't think there is an 'actual meaning' to the zen. As i understand it, meaning is a part only of the human mind and language, outside of the mind is " ", which is without meaning. Both sophisticated and simple language are the same in respects to zen - both mind doing its thing, which is fine, but not really no-mind or zen. In many ways, sophisticated language can serve to create the illusion of depth or understanding while moving away from these things. Or just moving nowhere.
 
 
werwolf
05:37 / 21.09.07
Scrotox, i will have to agree with a lot of things that .trampetunia said. but i'd like to add my personal take here as well, perhaps this will help you understand why i think of watts the way i do. let me point out which parts of your posts i'd specifically like to adress:

[quote Scrotox Handlebar VI] I understand what you say (to an extent)however how, precisely, would one know that one is 'getting' zen? [...] Can we break any of this down into measurable, and therfore undertsndable, terms? If not then what is left? [/quote]

and

[quote Scrotox Handlebar VI] It appears to me that anyone talking about Zen in accurate terms will appear 'wordy' because it will require deep sophistication and complexity of language to hint at the actual meaning ( again as a negative comparison please refer to my earlier wine induced knobbery above). [/quote]

the way i understand zen is that it is not a state you achieve but a way to live by. so you do not ever really 'become zen', you just perfect your zazen or whichever zen practice you prefer in a way that makes your life gradually more fulfilling and worthwhile. but exactly because of this there is no singular [one zen] that could be described with words. or at least not the words that humans know. each individual will have his/her own way of doing their zazen [or insert any other practice] and also their own way of enhancing their living experience. i know, this sounds like esoteric new age hooey, but it is really almost impossible to have any measure to what zen is at all. all you might be able to do is set up a few rules of mechanics, for instance what pose you should be holding when using a specific meditation technique or guidelines for various breathing exercises or perhaps a work schedule for doing chores. but all of these things are only crutches helping you live zen. so, i'd say, no, we cannot break it down into measurable terms. yet something must not be necessarily measurable to be understandable. it is understandable in the way that all zen is [or at least is to me] is a way to achieve a report with the world around you that makes you understand that you are part of this world and that the world is part of you. how exactly you achieve that, what you make of it and what it means to you - all these things are no concern to the ways of zen. zen is not the arrival at something, zen is the way there.

so, imho, it is not so much a problem of wordiness, when people talk about zen [although many diehard practictioners believe that any word uttered about zen is useless and any word written about it is at best detracting]. i think it is more a problem that there are a number of people attempting to put the meaning, the 'conclusion' of zen, into words. since zen does not have any inherent 'meaning' at all and also lacks any 'conclusion' [because even a fully enlightened buddha will continue living zen] any words on that matter are rather meaningless. talking about experiences with zen, describing practices and individual insights, trying to make others ponder the same questions that helped yourself on - there is nothing to say against that at all! .trampetunia mentioned shunryu suzuki who was doing just that.

and there is the problem with watts. on the one hand he was trying to do the same, but more accessible for the western minds - which he did a great job at and i really applaude his endeavors in that respect. on the other hand he seemed to always try to give points as to 'this is what it's going to be like, when you've achieve zen' - and i have a problem with that, because it raises expectations, might make people think that there will be certain set things that will happen 'once they've achieved zen'. and those who are led by reading watts to believe that might be disappointed when they find out that living zen is not like that. at the same time i think that even if those people might be disappointed, at least they have been pointed in a direction and if they feel comfortable in that direction they will probably stay with it and try to gain the most of it for their own lives. that is a good thing, i'd say. so i take the downsides of the wattsian approach with a grain of salt and will continue to recommend watts and both suzukis to anyone eager to take their first zen steps.
 
  
Add Your Reply