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Woman Jailed for Genderfuck 'Trick'

  
  

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Ganesh
10:47 / 22.01.02
Oh, for Christ's sake, Potus, don't pull the whole "I'm wrong" wounded puppy routine again. Just accept that your definition of "reasonable" here may differ from other people's - and that doesn't necessarily mean one or other of you has to be absolutely wrong.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
10:53 / 22.01.02
Ganesh, that was not a wounded puppy routine.

I freely admit that my definition of reasonable is going to be different from everyone elses.

However, as was well argued by the other parties in this discussion by other parties, those definitions were quite a distance off of the mark from reality.

I am defering to those with more experience than me and changing my view.

It is actually possible for a person to change their view through well reasoned argument. I see no reason to hold onto a misperception when I can see that it is wrong. I would be foolish to do so.
 
 
Ganesh
11:06 / 22.01.02
Okay. For a moment there, I thought you were launching into that whole sarcastic "I obviously know nothing at all about anything; I'm utterly stupid, I stand corrected by all of you" thing. If that's not the case, I'm very glad.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
11:10 / 22.01.02
Rosa, I wasn't implying it as a straight environment. I was implying it as an environment where expectations are different.

Okay, and I don't interpret this as anti-gay anything, because really for me the conversation we're having is about transgender and transsexuality which is entirely different from queerness or gayness. The two are confused all the time.

But I have one more thing to say, which is that personally, I would like to erase those 'expectations' that people are what they say they are and look like, from all of culture altogether. Gender is far, far more complex than that: I would like people to have no expectations, and particularly no judgments, about the people they might desire, look at, talk to or interact with. I don't mean this in regard to anything but gender or sexuality -- to liken it to telling a lie about income or anything else is beside the point. The point is, those expectations you're talking about -- that a man is a man and a woman is a woman, and you can't confuse them or exist in any space in between -- they hurt people. Laws exist that back up those expectations. People get routinely bashed for not living up to such expectations.

I'm not interested in dividing up the spaces of culture and saying 'Here, trannies, go be confusing and weird over there. Go take part in a Pride March or something, for one day a year, or in the sequestered environment of your own little night-clubs. We want to have our normal society over here, and you can't be a part of it.' Partly because I would end up sequestered, but also because mainstream culture must change to accommodate confusion and gender piracy.

(And wisdom/idiots, I'm not saying you *want* trannies to be ghettoised, don't misinterpret me, I'm just saying that your previous posts implied that this would be acceptable, and I feel I need to state clearly what I found problematic with that. Right?)
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
11:11 / 22.01.02
This doesn't mean that I'm not saddened by the shift in social thinking.

Personally I will always endeavour to be respectful and honest with those that I meet and interact with. I just hope that I'm not the only one.
 
 
bitchiekittie
11:29 / 22.01.02
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Rain:
Legal ages is a bit more complex but - Bitchiekittie - would you be agitating for a sexual offence charge if a 15-year-old had been "groped", consensually, by her 21-year old boyfriend? And if not, why not?


christ yes. perhaps Im a little more sensitive to the subject because of the fact that I have a young daughter, but Ive always believed that there was something a little skewed about a person in their 20s screwing around with a younger teenager. in high school I wondered about the mental health of the 20 somethings dating my classmates. ever notice that those 20 year olds are usually social retards? wonder if theres a correlation there?

Id break the fucking fingers of anyone 21 years old who was "groping" my 15 year old - I really dont give a shit who it was
 
 
bitchiekittie
11:30 / 22.01.02
..and Im quite angry you asked, mainly because I believe I made it quite clear in my first post, but also because I question your underlying meaning
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
11:43 / 22.01.02
Well, Christ. I live in fear of making people angry. My "underlying meaning" is that people buy into assumptions that naturally privilege "straight" heteronormative expressions of living all the time. As in, IIRC, "Tell me all about yourself - are you married?".

So, commendable as I find your egalitarianism and generally in agreement regarding the true horror that is the older boyfriend of school-aged girl, one might rephrase the question "would a 21-year old man be put on the sex offender's register (don't know what they call it in the US, but this is the big list of paedophiles and others not to be trusted with public duty or office) if he had, say got drunk at his younger sister's birthday party and "kissed and groped" three 15-year old girls, with their full consent?"

I'm guessing probably not. Which, unless I am just paranoid, suggests that there may be something either homophobic or transophobic here, not just in the people involved, but in the law of the land.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
11:43 / 22.01.02
Rosa as to this.

quote: But I have one more thing to say, which is that personally, I would like to erase those 'expectations' that people are what they say they are and look like, from all of culture altogether.

We make judgements based on appearances every day. It's not just to do with sexuality or gender but they do get included, particularly gender.

I guess really I was saying that I would feel hurt if someone were to pull a genderfuck on me and essentially mess with my sexuality. To me I see that as a complete lack of respect to me as a person.

There are times and places where I might have expected someone to try that with me such as a bar or a club and that include non gay-specific bars and clubs and where I guess that I might have my guard raised against such an occurence. There are occasions where I might have expected that not to happen.

I realise that I was wrong about these expectations and presume that I may never know until the pants come off.

Actually this leads me to another question. If, for the sake of argument, someone were to pull a genderfuck on you, how would you feel? Would it make a difference if they engaged in sexual contact before you found out?
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
11:51 / 22.01.02
Actually I think this is deserving of a Brand New Thread, just to take away the contexts of the initial post and subsequent discussions.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
12:00 / 22.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Wisdom of idiots:
I guess really I was saying that I would feel hurt if someone were to pull a genderfuck on me and essentially mess with my sexuality.

Oh no! You've MADE ME GAY! How could you? I feel so...hurt...
 
 
bitchiekittie
12:21 / 22.01.02
Im not suggesting that it is a "true horror" for a 15 year old to be sexually touched by a 21 year old, only that it is utterly inappropriate and totally unacceptable. Im also not suggesting that this woman SHOULD receive the penalties that shes been threatened with, or even that she deserves it. nor am I suggesting that the people who have been assigned to uphold laws are just and unbiased in this situation, only that there are laws to protect minors, and that if you cant live within those laws you should be damn well prepared to deal with the consequences.

do I think she should receive a harsher punishment because she is a woman, or because the girls didnt know she was a woman? hell no. but she should expect to be held accountable. I agree that she may not get a fair hearing - a lot of people dont, for a huge number of reasons. but she shouldnt have touched those girls. PERIOD
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
12:25 / 22.01.02
Haus taking the wrong angle yet again.

I'm thinking that my sexuality should be respected as much as anyone elses.

It's not a matter of turning me gay.

I don't know if you've ever been in a situation where someone has had no respect for your sexuality but I think that it would be something that could be construed as hurtful.
 
 
moriarty
12:47 / 22.01.02
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Rain:
So, commendable as I find your egalitarianism and generally in agreement regarding the true horror that is the older boyfriend of school-aged girl, one might rephrase the question "would a 21-year old man be put on the sex offender's register (don't know what they call it in the US, but this is the big list of paedophiles and others not to be trusted with public duty or office) if he had, say got drunk at his younger sister's birthday party and "kissed and groped" three 15-year old girls, with their full consent?"

He might, if someone reported it.

The report is skimpy on details, so excuse me while I make my own assumptions about the case.

I have had a fair number of foster sisters and quite a few friends in their teens who have dated older people. At no point, even after breaking up, did they report it to the police. Isn't it possible that this homophobia that is being referred to lies not with the law, but with the girl who reported the incident?

And, on the flipside, considering that we don't have boatloads of information here, could it be possible that she was upset that she was fooling around with a 21 year old, and wasn't horribly messed up about the cross dressing aspect of the incident? I realize that this last possibility is unlikely, especially considering the views I stated at the beginning of the last paragragh, but it is still possible. After all, Jordan's age was also a part of hir "disguise".

I think the clincher for the supposed stiff sentencing of Jordan (who admitted to indecent assualt, by the way) was hir lies about hir age. I'm not sure about the laws in other countries, but here you aren't of legal age until 18. However, if you are below that age you can have sexual relations with someone who is within two years of your age. So, for example, a 14 year old can have a sexual relationship with a 15 or 16 year old. And a 19 year old can date a 17 year old. But this only applies to those who are 14 years of age and higher.

These girls who were groped may have been fine upstanding youth (unlike my foster sisters) who would have been appalled by the thought of kissing someone 6 years their senior. This is the second difference between the example you use and this case, Haus. After all, no one has questioned why Jordan changed hir age.

Uh oh. I've just ventured into gender theory territory.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
13:10 / 22.01.02
Aaaaagh - lost post.

The sentence of which was - BK, I was in no sense joking. I think it is pretty horrific for a 21-year old boy to be dating a 15-year old girl, since there is almost always going to be a differential of power which will very probably be open to abuse. Sounds pretty horrific to me.


And WoI - I am disrespecting your attitudes, not your sexuality. I know how tough straights have it. Persecuted by the police, hassled by skinheads outside "straight clubs", kicked senseless for walking hand-in-hand with your partners outside the "straight quarter" of town. Being forced to make a life in the badly-paid "stright-friendly" professions - Middle-Management, Football, Politics - or live forever in fear of discovery and blackmail.

I weep tears of the blood at the plight of the straight men of this world.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
13:28 / 22.01.02
Nice Haus, very nice.

I try to be open and serious about stuff in an effort to garner a better understanding about the world around me and you continually take the piss.

Thanks, I really appreciate that a lot. It makes me a better person. I now understand so much more than I did before.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
13:42 / 22.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Wisdom of idiots:
Nice Haus, very nice.

I try to be open and serious about stuff in an effort to garner a better understanding about the world around me and you continually take the piss.

Thanks, I really appreciate that a lot. It makes me a better person. I now understand so much more than I did before.

Oh, stop blubbing. I take the piss out of you when you say intensely piss-takable things. And your refrain about straight men being oppressed is...well, intensely piss-takable. If you spent a bit less time complaining, maybe you'd learn more.

[ 22-01-2002: Message edited by: The Haus of Rain ]
 
 
Ganesh
13:48 / 22.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Wisdom of idiots:
I don't know if you've ever been in a situation where someone has had no respect for your sexuality but I think that it would be something that could be construed as hurtful.

Frequently - and not just when people I've just met assume I'm straight/married/want to be married...
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
13:48 / 22.01.02
Where did I say that straight men were opressed exactly?

Please tell me because I can't find it anywhere.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:52 / 22.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Wisdom of idiots:
I'm thinking that my sexuality should be respected as much as anyone elses.


I really don't want to make this seem like a 'lets all have a go at WoI' but your post does suggest that if you find someone attractive then they have a responsibility to be of a sex that you feel capable of fucking.

So here's the thing. Last I heard transexuals have to live for a year (or is it two?) as the sex they want to transition to, on the grounds that if they survive with the daily abuse and the threat of being hurt or killed they must really want to do it. So they are transitioning from a gender you wouldn't normally want to shag to one you would. But because they have to wait for that one(/two) year period, they still have/don't have bits you don't like.

Somehow, you meet. Somehow, you hit it off. Are you saying they have to walk away because they know you don't like screwing anything that looks like it has girl/boy parts even though they consider themselves to be a man/woman?
 
 
Ganesh
13:57 / 22.01.02
Then there're those transpeople who, having undergone hormonal/surgical modification, then identify as gay - y'know, woman becomes man to get with men. The whole genital compatibility thing goes straight out the window.

How should they present themselves "honestly" to the potential partner they've just met?
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
13:58 / 22.01.02
quote: your post does suggest that if you find someone attractive then they have a responsibility to be of a sex that you feel capable of fucking.

Well that really does seal the deal on me being stupid because I could have read my post a thousand times a day for ten years and never once managed to derive that from it.

Really people, you don't need to reach that far to grasp the meaning of my posts, I'm sure of it.

Can someone be my copywriter please, because I'm being misunderstood on what I consider the most simple, uncomplicated and face value statements.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
14:02 / 22.01.02
And, you know, a lot of transgendered people do not want a "straight swap" - vagina for penis, naughty lumps for pointless nubbins, or t'other way around. There are, as far as I can tell, far more than two possible points of gender identification, and people who either have had enough alterations to be happy, or don't feel up to getting more, r have plateaued, or are "passing" for two years to get surgery on the national health, or don't feel the need to change things they are perfectly happy with just because other people feel they should conform to a particular set of attributes to join a particular "gender club".

All of which belongs in the "Genderfuck you" thread, but never mind. Thing is, there are levels of complexity in gender and sexuality and bodies beyond those you seem to want to interface with, and that degree of simplification can often come across as a) offensive and b) the peculiar privilege of people for whom and around whom society has been constructed.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
14:07 / 22.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:
Then there're those transpeople who, having undergone hormonal/surgical modification, then identify as gay - y'know, woman becomes man to get with men. The whole genital compatibility thing goes straight out the window.

How should they present themselves "honestly" to the potential partner they've just met?

And if they have gone all the way, is it incumbent upon them to confess that they *were* born with different set-ups? And if so, when?

(sings) Kate Bornstein,
Kate Bornstein,
I love you,
Kate Bornstein....
 
 
Ganesh
14:09 / 22.01.02
Pocket flowcharts or Venn diagrams, perhaps?
 
  

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